Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,254

    Default Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Ok, had to watch that one on tape delay as I spent the evening as Indiana's newest Paramedic graduated from class.

    Go Diamond Dave Although all of that money I spent on regular college makes me

    I was just going to put some comments on the post game thread but after reading a few pages of that I didn't know if I should myself or

    As we all learned from the wise Mark Jackson after game one, never get to up after a win and don't get to down after a loss.

    There were problems, no doubt, but this hardly qualify's us for worst team in the league.

    I guess we need to start of with this.

    Emeka Okafor is supposed to look like this



    however whenever I looked he somehow looked like this.



    My God his game made Chris Kamans game look weak and that is saying something. Thank God he is not like a WW2 bomber and put's tatoo's on his arms of his victims because our entire frontline would be on both sides.

    Wallace is also a handfull, he is so dang wirey and athletic it's just not even funny.

    These are very good players so the fact that they had good games should be no shame on anyone.

    But the fact that Okafor had a superhuman game should make every player and coach on our team take pause.

    He's good, he's not THAT good.

    Look a lot of what I have to say was covered in the first thread but I want to echo U.B. on his first post. The fact that David Harrison takes a paycheck from this game is really almost a crime. He had one phenominal game to start the season, ok a phenom for him, but since then it has been a downhill slide.

    Tonight he was the worst thing you can ask from a player, when he was on the floor he hurt the team. Yes, it was that bad. He hurt the team in his short time on the floor. I don't know what that crap was when he walked out with 5 fouls but this is three games in a row now that there has been some kind of "weird" issue with him.

    The only person to match David Harrison in ineptatude was Jamaal Tinsley.

    Jamaal is supposed to look like this.



    but whenever I looked out there during the game all I saw was



    I was in a real quandry during this game. I kept praying for O'Brien to take Jamaal out of the game but then I kept remembering that Travis Diener was coming in.

    Look, I understand both to Birds signings this summer. Both were low risk signings and if they work out he will look great. However they were cast off by thier past teams for a reason.

    If Dieners shot is not dropping this guy is pretty much useless. I didn't even see the good ball movement with him that I saw in the pre-season and I'm not sure I won't have nightmares about his defense on Felton.

    However I understand, he's a backup and really probably a third string backup on most teams. However when you are Jamaal Tinsleys backup you better be ready to step in and run the team. Right now I don't have faith in Travis to do that.

    I just don't understand why we aren't getting Owens some min. on the floor.

    Ok, right now I am going to say that Ike may be more important to this team than I thought. I mean good God when J.O. goes out we don't have any kind of inside presence at all on offense.

    BTW, just in case people are wondering if they didn't see the game. You will get outshot at the freethrow line everytime if all you do is shoot jumpers.

    Only Danny went to the rack with any real intensity and while Shawne and Mike tried they were not successfull. I won't even discuss Jamaal's shot selection at the rim.

    I think J.O. took it to the hoop two times the whole game.

    Rebounding is really starting to be an issue as well.

    David Harrison now has officially made Rik Smits look like Wilt Chamberlain on the boards.

    Has there ever been a player so big and so strong who got so few rebounds? Is there a reason this guy can't even accidently grab a board?

    Yes, if you can't tell I'm very very down on Harrison right now.

    Not all was bad though.

    Jeff Foster had a great third quarter, Troy Murphy had a great first half, Danny Granger fought all night long and Jim O'Brien had a good haircut.

    Now everyone knows that I am not a fan of O'Neal, but I am not laying this loss totally on him. He deserves as much blame as everyone else, but he was hardly the entire problem.

    Look this team is going to struggle all season long, we knew that. The three and zero start may have been a bad thing if it gave people a false sense of optimism. But let's not blow the loss out of proportion either.

    It was just a loss, nothing more nothing less.

    We've already got a game tonight so I want to see how the team responds.

    BTW, by not over reacting I am not saying let's not criticize or make trade suggestions. I'm just saying let's not make us the worst team of all time just yet.

    However on the trade front I still contend what I've contended all off season. We need a new point guard and we need a new player to be the focus of the team.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,613

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Remember the offensive rebounding thread?

    Remember the cakewalk thread?

    The Pacers are 3-0 vs teams that are now a combined 1-13, that's still 1-10 if you take out the games vs Indy.

    They are 0-2 vs teams that are a combined 7-3. I'm seeing a pattern here.

    Preseason opponents so far this year:
    Seattle 0-6
    NOH 4-2
    Chicago 1-4
    Memphis 1-3 (twice)
    Minny 0-4

    So you've got some quality play vs the Hornets and then games (some losses) vs some of the worst teams in the league so far. The good news is that this implies that they aren't the worst team in the NBA because they can beat those teams.

    What's the name for right above that tier?

    And brush it off all you want, but this team is about to hit a real load of games, teams that make the first 5 games look like preseason part 2. On paper this is about to get really ugly.


    I can imagine that a certain thread about a certain PG might see some repeated bump action this season.


    I just don't get your dislike of JO. He's one of the few guys that looks like he belongs out there. Has he had a game yet this season where he didn't draw a charge? I saw him get at least one in this game.


    So far this season it still reminds me a lot of last season, but with a little better defense and a different version of offensive confusion and struggles. Dave showed some restraint in the first couple of games, now he's back to 4-6 fouls in 10 minutes.

    That Rick, always holding Dave back instead of letting him play through the foul problems and always keeping Tinsley from running the show.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    This was a tough game to watch for me, simply because of the free throw disparity and the disappearing act of the ball movement and motion we'd seen earlier and in the preseason. Oh, and the way our perimeter defenders were letting guys get into the paint at will. Tinsley was bad, and Diener was worse. When you've got a guy like Felton repeatedly burning your backup point guard, and your backup point guard can't hit anything offensively, to the point that he's lost enough confidence that he's passing up open shots, wouldn't it be a good idea to bring in Owens, who can actually play some defense, and might be able to drive to the rim and either draw some fouls or get someone else an open look? This was my only real criticism of JOB. Owens was needed tonight, and he didn't play.

    I'm also a little concerned about the chemistry between Jamaal and Rush. Seems like Rush got in and never got the ball passed to him. Jamaal will usually pass to anyone he believes can get him an assist, and on pure shooting ability, Rush qualifies. I wonder if Kareem hasn't already gone back to a perceived prima donna attitude, which would also explain why he can't seem to get any PT.

    It's not the end of the world, and I still think this can be a playoff team, but it's up to the players to make it happen, and if we're not going to make the playoffs, JO needs to be a trade deadline movement, because the JO era will be officially over for me in Indy. I'd rather see young talent developing while looking at a good lottery pick than not make the playoffs and being in the bottom of the lottery, also known as "fish or cut bait".

  4. #4
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,949

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    The increidble thing and the baffling thing about harrison is he's often in pretty good position to rebound and yet he "never" rebounds the ball - I've never seen anything like it (well actually Rik Smits was almost similar)

    The problem right now is a real problem. Our guards are not quck enough to defend anyone and yet we have no inside game at all. That is quite a double whammy. We have to be able to do one or the other. being a slow team is one thing, but being a slow team that isn't very big inside is quite another.

    I expect the Pacers to go small and at least try to stop dribble penetration, that have to at least take one thing away from teams.

    And before anyone says yes but we are getting dominated inside, we can't go small, Harrison isn't going to help - he isn't capable and I'll repeat what I said before training camp, I really want Harrison off the team - I mean cut, I don't want him in the locker room, I don't want him on the bench and I certainly don't want him anywhere near the court - during a game.


    I predicted the Pacers to win 42 games and I still think they will. This coaching staff is too good and we have enough talent to win 42 games.

    Fouling: I'm really concerned about us not getting to the free throw line and this is the only complaint I have with this coaching staff - you don't draw fouls when you are shooting threes. However I'm not concerned (yet) about the number of fouls we are committing. Back in the fall of 1993 a very similar thing was happening when Larry Brown became our coach - we were fouling way too much - but that eventually rectified itself and look what happened. You first build a defense with a good system and aggressiveness and then you execute the system and when you do the fouls we decrease - so keep being aggresive
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-10-2007 at 08:15 AM.

  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,949

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Sorry for a double post, but I don't know what to make of JO right now.

    Let me first say, that I realize he's coming off an injury, he missed almost 3 weeks of playing time and yes I know he's being restricted on the number of minutes he can play.

    Having said that, I am very confused about JO. Part of me thinks he has lost his effectiveness and isn't the player he once was, he looks like a 35 year old aging big man who should be playing 15 minutes per game. One question, does he ever make that little half squared up jump shot, you know the one where he's sort of posting up, and turns a little and shoots, and invariably the ball carooms off the rim - I have no idea why he takes that shot.

    I love the charges he takes, and he is still a major force defensively - but offensively - he isn't helping.

    I am really confused about JO and very concerned.

    Peck, I do disagree with you a little on Diener, I think he pushes the ball very nicely and I see improved ball movement when he comes in the game - he has a lot of point guard skills especially in an open game. I'm baffled by his shot, it looks to me like he isn't getting set on his shot, he's always fading either back or to the left or right. maybe that is the way he normally shoots , but I feel if he goes straight up, he'll make shots. His defense is a problem, and we all know who is coming to town tonight.

    I stated this a few days ago, but I really think Daniels and Diener should be able to work very well off each other on both ends of the court. Daniels can allow Travis to play off the ball a little and we need Daniels dribble penetration.

    One other thing about JO, if he's going to play - he needs to be aggressive - take the ball to the basket. Someone needs to draw some fouls, - the best way to stem a rally is to get to the free throw line - it is almost impossible to hit threes when the other team is on a 20-2 run. And this is the second straight game where a huge run could not be stopped.

    WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP. I don't see any on court leadership. One thing I noticed sitting in the second rown the other night is Tinsley offers zero leadership - and that is something a point guard is supposed to do - he has to control the game and when the other team is on a run he has to make things happen. JO also offers zero on court leadership - he doesn't lead through words, or by actions (although drawing charges is something) The two players providing some leadership from what I saw are Dunleavy and Foster.

    I'm ready to see a lot of Andre Owens. We need his defense
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-10-2007 at 07:57 AM.

  6. #6
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,735

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Obie needs to make them all take about 10,000 shots a day in practice and we will win that game despite our incredibly inept d. I have faith Harter will fix that.

    I broke my own Reggie Miller rule I turned the game off with about 1:30 to go. Right after they let the clock get down to 7 TWICE before fouling.

    Anyway did ANYONE other than Jamaal and Shawne hit a single shot in the 4th?



    Edit: before anyone throws my under the bus for not watching the last 1:30 consider my parents were visiting from Ohio and I watched the game anyway.

  7. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,494

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I'm firmly on record as saying JO should've been moved this offseason for the best deal offered... unless absolute garbage was all that was offered (but I think there were offers that should've been considered).

    I'm not convinced JO is a team player... and even if he is a team player who was just in search of a better coach, I'm not sure this team vision fits JO very well at all. Couple that with his injury propensity and questionable leadership on a team that needs to get back to square one and I don't see why we kept him.

    I personally, don't think that JO not fitting the vision is a problem long term because I don't think JO is a guy you should be building the team around anyway.

    Part of the leadership void we've had, and will have, is because JO is on the team. A true leader can never emerge as long as that is true. We handed him the mantle and fed the ego, but didn't get rewarded for it. JO is not going to be that leader, and his presence will create nothing but a block to letting that role naturally develop elsewhere.

    I'm repeating myself I know, but the point of it is that we should be building this team without any shackles to what clearly has been a problem already.

    I'm not all that angry with where the team is right now. It was pretty clear that management was putting a lot of stock in coaching making a BIG difference... or else we have some unmarketable players that management had no choice but to hope coaching could make a big difference.

    If Rick Carlisle was a bad coach then maybe you could see that approach... but Carlisle is typically not a bad coach. But he has to be given a coachable team.

    OBrien might do better with the same team because Carlisle had totally lost the team, but when the 'team' includes players like Tinsley then you are going to have trouble.

    I want to see the PG be more of a coach on the floor... an extension of the coach on the bench. That is not Jamaal Tinsley. In fact he's so far from it that there's no hope it's ever going to happen.

    In the case of Jamaal, I stand by what I said a looooong time ago. I'd bench him. He would be the disaster PG. I would try to find a combination that would give me consistent play and Jamaal would no longer be part of my thoughts. I don't care that on any given night he could be the difference maker in a win... because on too many nights he is the difference maker in a loss.

    So let Tinsley's legend grow on the bench and look for a trade and start thinking about a future cut/buyout. If you start seeing a different attitude in practice while his education on the bench is sinking in then maybe IF NEEDED you give him a shot down the road.

    We need to try and develop some consistency at the PG position. The ceiling might be a lot lower than what Jamaal brings... but the swings with Jamaal are just too much for team-building purposes.

    What surprises me is the number of people shocked by a 3-2 record. We were just an awful, awful team late last season and barely touched the roster this off season. We had a coach that had a history of 50 win seasons so you just can't put all the blame on him.

    Wins will be tough to come by, particularly if we have players reverting to the form they've shown in the past. And past history is always a good indication of future performance.

    And we're only 5 games into the season. For anyone that got too high on the team's prospects this summer and were knocked back to reality with only a couple of losses, it's still only 5 games and we're 3-2. The 3-0 record was fool's gold to some degree, but at least we did win the games we should've won (based on those teams' current records in comparison).

    Considering the dearth of personnel changes this offseason and just where we were last season, we should be glad we've won ANY games so far. This isn't a roster that needed tweaked, it needed overhauled. But right now, it is what it is. We might even be better off to not play above our heads and instead play for the lottery. I would rather suck and get a high lottery pick than try to coax and put bandaids on the team and milk them into the playoffs to be someone's 'easy out'.

    It's a little early to be thinking about that though. But come December, if the team vision is still getting stalled by certain players, then it's time to read the writing on the wall and move on from certain players and their Pacer era.

    -Bball
    Last edited by Bball; 11-10-2007 at 11:38 AM.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  8. #8
    How u imawhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    B-town
    Posts
    4,994

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Peck, I do disagree with you a little on Diener, I think he pushes the ball very nicely and I see improved ball movement when he comes in the game - he has a lot of point guard skills especially in an open game. I'm baffled by his shot, it looks to me like he isn't getting set on his shot, he's always fading either back or to the left or right. maybe that is the way he normally shoots , but I feel if he goes straight up, he'll make shots. His defense is a problem, and we all know who is coming to town tonight.


    It doesn't matter how well he pushes it up the floor if he's not a threat to score or pass. Has Travis thrown a fast break assist inside the half court line since joining the Pacers?

    I've only seen this: he quickly dribbles the ball into the front court, gets just past the free throw line, and without looking at the basket or teammates, circles back out. Seriously, it doesn't matter how fast he pushes it if he's not producing.

    Also, Travis has never shot over 43% in college or in the NBA. He's not a good shooter, period. His shots look good, but that's it. I want him to succeed because it looked like he had potential in the preseason, but like I've been saying, so did Sarunas.

  9. #9
    Member jcouts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Age
    34
    Posts
    434

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I'm going to say this and some folks can start tossing tomatoes at me or whatever they want. But...

    I really wouldn't be disappointed if we traded JO for a collection of upcoming draft picks and a salary cap dump.

    At this point, I wouldn't even be opposed to trading him for Odom straight up. I think JO has that little left in the tank.

    I agree that the game never seemed to slow down for him. Yes, he put up good numbers for a year or two, but so did Antoine Walker. The only part of the game that I'll consent that he seems to make look easier than what it really is, is weakside shot blocking. That's about it. I remember watching him time and time again and constantly saying, "Ok, that went in...but there's no way it should have gone in...he wasn't even looking at the basket". Every shot he took, that he made, looked like one of those "lucky shots". I kept thinking to myself, "ok, he got that one in, but one of these days, he's not going to be able to do that anymore".

    Anyone who has watched JO enough on film can man him up pretty easily, because he has about 4 or 5 packaged moves in the post. Anyone remember the NJ series when he lit up the Nets the first game and then was essentially shut down by a smaller Kenyon Martin the remainder of the series? That was the first clue I saw to his limits as a player.

    If the man guarding him has not filmed it up on him, then he'll probably have a decent game...but his ability to improvise within the offense has never been and probably never will be a strength of his. That to me is the biggest reason he will never fit well into this style of offense, and that to me is the biggest reason the team has struggled since he has come back into the playing rotation.

    I think it will only be a matter of time before the franchise has a new face. One by one, you're going to see talented players with a low basketball IQ and weak fundamentals being shipped out and possibly less talented players with a high basketball IQ and strong fundamentals coming in. JO and Tinsley are at the top of that list of outgoing. I think it's only a matter of time if Larry is in full control now.
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

  10. #10
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    7,088

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    The Pacers will be fine. Once they fix there defensive rebounding issues they'll be fine.
    I'm sure J'Ob will have them work on this in practice. It's about blocking out, and wanting the ball more.

    As we saw last year under Carlisle, you can't push the ball up the court.... WITHOUT THE BALL.

    Foster does a good job of offensive rebounds and saving possessions, but he needs to do that on the defensive end as well. JO, Murph, Granger, Dun Dun, Mel Mel... all need to crash the boards. You can still leak out and get out on the break after the rebounding, b/c the opposing team is crashing the boards as well!

    The rebounding was 34-32 Bobcats early in the 4th when we were leading, and it finished up 52-39 Bobcats.

    We have to rebound better!!!

    Less fouls would be nice as well, though we can't control some of the whistles!

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,581

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I think the demise of J.O. is a little premature. He's still coming back from his latest injury, and I fully expect he'll be back to all star level within the next few weeks. J.O. seems to be a player that needs his playing time if he's going to be effective. Our best bet if we want to trade J.O. will be to wait until he picks his game up, and trade him before the deadline if we can still get the right package. This needs to include an impact player, and multiple first round picks. To trade him now would be to get the least possible package for him. Let us hope that he stays healthy long enough to bring his value back to it's peak.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It doesn't matter how well he pushes it up the floor if he's not a threat to score or pass. Has Travis thrown a fast break assist inside the half court line since joining the Pacers?

    I've only seen this: he quickly dribbles the ball into the front court, gets just past the free throw line, and without looking at the basket or teammates, circles back out. Seriously, it doesn't matter how fast he pushes it if he's not producing.

    Also, Travis has never shot over 43% in college or in the NBA. He's not a good shooter, period. His shots look good, but that's it. I want him to succeed because it looked like he had potential in the preseason, but like I've been saying, so did Sarunas.

    Wow! I'm glad you have this player figured out after 5 games. You should have job in an NBA front office. You seem to be natural.

  13. #13
    You Did It Joseph!!!! AesopRockOn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    honolulu
    Age
    25
    Posts
    7,445
    Mood

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP. I don't see any on court leadership. One thing I noticed sitting in the second rown the other night is Tinsley offers zero leadership - and that is something a point guard is supposed to do - he has to control the game and when the other team is on a run he has to make things happen. JO also offers zero on court leadership - he doesn't lead through words, or by actions (although drawing charges is something) The two players providing some leadership from what I saw are Dunleavy and Foster.
    I agree with this 100%. If you look at where the possible leadership could come from, let's see: Danny Granger can barely lead himself when he's on the court; especially if he's missed his last couple of shots or made poor defensive decisions. The guy is just solid.

    Jermaine's behavior on the court is nearly infuriating. The guy has taken no initiative to score the ball at will (in the three games I've seen parts of) and no initiative to get on guys or encourage guys or even get on the refs. Hello! You are an All Star, you're supposed to get the calls. Well, he probably won't be an All Star this year. Considering guys like Kaman and Okafor are looking that much better than him is telling with respect to who the great big men in the league are. JO is not our leader.

    Then there Jamaal Tinsley...wow. I don't even think this guy likes half of the players on the team. In the games that the Pacers have faced adversidy (sp?), Jamaal has not even been a decent ball handler and distributor; he has made very bad decisions, thrown the ball away, been too risky, and on top of that, done that And One Streetball Bull**** (this coming from a person who watched that religiously in high school and junior high) that leads to nothing. Tinsley, as we know, usually gets into his own little world during games. So, he's not the leader.

    UB expressed some hope for Dunleavy; but there's a problem. The guy can get to unsure of himself which results in his inconsistency. Many posters think that he thinks a lot on the court and/or uses his head a good deal. Well, that's good and bad. He's less likely to make bad decisions, but he is THINKING too much and analyzing and wondering and none of that is leading. Dun's not it.

    Who else could lead this team? I haven't noticed too much from O'brien either way so I can't say much about how he's leading the team. Although I have noticed that his in-game personality seems to divert from his practice persona which seems harsher and more proud. So this team has got no leader. What do organizations do in these circumstances? Change. I think we knew this coming into the season; and many were enthusiastic about a possible blowup and reconfiguration. It's only 5 games in; who knows what will happen? Great post, UB. But Jeff can only work his *** off on the boards and occassionally yell an empowered catch phrase. I'm pretty down on the team right now, not that I wasn't before. Larry has a lot of work to do.

    But, no matter what,
    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

  14. #14
    Fat, Drunk and Stupid Lord Helmet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Richmond, IN
    Age
    23
    Posts
    15,310

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I think the biggest reason for the loss was we just went into one of those slumps and once we got to the shooting slump we didn't seem to attack the basket.

    I was very pissed after the game with the team and from what I heard so was O'Brien.

    I'm expecting a better performance tonight. Hopefully O'Brien had them practice shooting in the damn plane......
    Super Bowl XLI Champions
    2000 Eastern Conference Champions





  15. #15

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I was actually quite impressed with the first 3 qtrs. We were playing our game and went into the 4th with an 8 pt lead. Jamal had 8a and 2to. When we had cut the lead in the Clipper game to 91-80 Jamal came down and tossed up a 3 that was 3-4ft behind the line and no one was expecting it. We had scored 5 straight and had some momentum. It all died with that shot. I'm confused by his shot selection at times. Shooting 25% going 1-4 I could live with. Going 3-12 is detrimental.

    Harrison is wacko. I really believe the man wants to be the best player on the court. I think he wants to do everything right, he just can't. When he walked off the court after his 5th foul I was hoping that no one would say a word to him, because he might turn into Mike Tyson. He's his own worst enemy. Diener I believe is much better than what he's played so far, its too early to judge his game.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  16. #16
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    29,130

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    I will say JO was pretty bad on the leadership and effort front, but I'm not sure why we are complaining about his offense last night. He was just about as efficient as he is going to be when it comes to shooting the ball. He was 8/16 from the field and I don't think he bogged down the offense anymore than the two games we won with him in the lineup.
    Until we get our perimeter defense fixed JO and Foster are not going to be able to get into a full rhythm as they are both spending a lot of time in foul trouble.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  17. #17
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,676

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Nah... new coach. That changes things until we see otherwise. So you won't be seeing that post from me until we actually see how the new coach handles those things and all of the players respond.... which includes JO.

    If we'd brought Rick back with promises of a whole new approach to the game on the floor then you would've seen that post a few days ago. We already know how that dynamic would play out. But this is a whole new player-coach relationship and MAYBE a different management philosophy/relationship as well.

    'Wait and see' mode is on....
    -Bball
    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm firmly on record as saying JO should've been moved this offseason for the best deal offered... unless absolute garbage was all that was offered (but I think there were offers that should've been considered).

    I'm not convinced JO is a team player... and even if he is a team player who was just in search of a better coach, I'm not sure this team vision fits JO very well at all. Couple that with his injury propensity and questionable leadership on a team that needs to get back to square one and I don't see why we kept him.

    I personally, don't think that JO not fitting the vision is a problem long term because I don't think JO is a guy you should be building the team around anyway.

    Part of the leadership void we've had, and will have, is because JO is on the team. A true leader can never emerge as long as that is true. We handed him the mantle and fed the ego, but didn't get rewarded for it. JO is not going to be that leader, and his presence will create nothing but a block to letting that role naturally develop elsewhere.

    I'm repeating myself I know, but the point of it is that we should be building this team without any shackles to what clearly has been a problem already.

    I'm not all that angry with where the team is right now. It was pretty clear that management was putting a lot of stock in coaching making a BIG difference... or else we have some unmarketable players that management had no choice but to hope coaching could make a big difference.

    If Rick Carlisle was a bad coach then maybe you could see that approach... but Carlisle is typically not a bad coach. But he has to be given a coachable team.

    OBrien might do better with the same team because Carlisle had totally lost the team, but when the 'team' includes players like Tinsley then you are going to have trouble.

    I want to see the PG be more of a coach on the floor... an extension of the coach on the bench. That is not Jamaal Tinsley. In fact he's so far from it that there's no hope it's ever going to happen.

    In the case of Jamaal, I stand by what I said a looooong time ago. I'd bench him. He would be the disaster PG. I would try to find a combination that would give me consistent play and Jamaal would no longer be part of my thoughts. I don't care that on any given night he could be the difference maker in a win... because on too many nights he is the difference maker in a loss.

    So let Tinsley's legend grow on the bench and look for a trade and start thinking about a future cut/buyout. If you start seeing a different attitude in practice while his education on the bench is sinking in then maybe IF NEEDED you give him a shot down the road.

    We need to try and develop some consistency at the PG position. The ceiling might be a lot lower than what Jamaal brings... but the swings with Jamaal are just too much for team-building purposes.

    What surprises me is the number of people shocked by a 3-2 record. We were just an awful, awful team late last season and barely touched the roster this off season. We had a coach that had a history of 50 win seasons so you just can't put all the blame on him.

    Wins will be tough to come by, particularly if we have players reverting to the form they've shown in the past. And past history is always a good indication of future performance.

    And we're only 5 games into the season. For anyone that got too high on the team's prospects this summer and were knocked back to reality with only a couple of losses, it's still only 5 games and we're 3-2. The 3-0 record was fool's gold to some degree, but at least we did win the games we should've won (based on those teams' current records in comparison).

    Considering the dearth of personnel changes this offseason and just where we were last season, we should be glad we've won ANY games so far. This isn't a roster that needed tweaked, it needed overhauled. But right now, it is what it is. We might even be better off to not play above our heads and instead play for the lottery. I would rather suck and get a high lottery pick than try to coax and put bandaids on the team and milk them into the playoffs to be someone's 'easy out'.

    It's a little early to be thinking about that though. But come December, if the team vision is still getting stalled by certain players, then it's time to read the writing on the wall and move on from certain players and their Pacer era.

    -Bball
    Wait and see mode lasted 5 games? You are now forbidden from ever mentioning JO and "game 8"............
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  18. #18
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    8,622

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Until we get our perimeter defense fixed JO and Foster are not going to be able to get into a full rhythm as they are both spending a lot of time in foul trouble.
    and all other remarks, and those ready to throw players under the bus again:

    Watch the game with other eyes, try and look at it from the standpoint that these players are all on "our" team

    If you want to throw JO and JT under the bus, or even speeding train, fine, but you know what? let's start with all players less effective, at least Jay will get his wish with 15 new players.

    Granger had a pathetic game, both on D and on O, think about that for a change, DunDun wasn't very good either this game, and let's not start about any of the other scraps used.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  19. #19
    How u imawhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    B-town
    Posts
    4,994

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Granger had a pathetic game, both on D and on O
    Is this a joke?

  20. #20
    Member NorCal_Pacerfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    1,919

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    We clearly miss Ike. He's a spark when we need it the most.
    :thepacers
    No Linking to your own site if it sells something.

  21. #21
    woman without a team
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,054

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP.
    Off the top of my head I'd say Austin is in Golden State with Al. I would think Jeff and (I can't believe I'm about to say this) Dunleavy could and should be the leaders. But then what do I know?

  22. #22
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    29,130

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    and all other remarks, and those ready to throw players under the bus again:

    Watch the game with other eyes, try and look at it from the standpoint that these players are all on "our" team

    If you want to throw JO and JT under the bus, or even speeding train, fine, but you know what? let's start with all players less effective, at least Jay will get his wish with 15 new players.

    Granger had a pathetic game, both on D and on O, think about that for a change, DunDun wasn't very good either this game, and let's not start about any of the other scraps used.
    I'm not sure whether you agree with me, are calling me out, or its somewhere in the middle...

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  23. #23
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,494

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the loss to the Bobcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Wait and see mode lasted 5 games? You are now forbidden from ever mentioning JO and "game 8"............
    No, I'm still in 'wait and see mode'. Don't mistake a long post as being the same as all worked up and in a lather over something.

    I'm just stating what I expect or have noted so far (or what I would've done if I ascended to the Pacer throne).

    We do know what the vision is supposed to be (finally) so let's see how management and coaching go about molding that vision.

    It's too soon to say problems won't be corrected one way or the other.... Whether thru a trade(s), coaching, and/or repitition of the system.

    -Bball
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

Similar Threads

  1. 11/09/2007 Game Thread 05: Pacers at Bobcats
    By BostonConnection in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 278
    Last Post: 11-09-2007, 09:29 PM
  2. 11/09/2007 Guess The Score - Pacers at Charlotte
    By RoboDoug in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 11-09-2007, 09:29 PM
  3. Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...
    By Peck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 11-09-2007, 11:02 AM
  4. 11/07/2007 Guess The Score - Pacers vs. L.A. Clippers
    By RoboDoug in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 11-09-2007, 07:52 AM
  5. Sixers hand Bobcats 31-point loss [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-08-2007, 12:50 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •