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Thread: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

  1. #1

    Default are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    If so, I pose the following question.

    Are these two positions consistent?

    1) I wish that people would just leave Kelvin Sampson alone. He messed up and broke the rules about phoning recruits. He has paid for it with losing a hefty bonus (half-million $$ or so?) from IU and lose a player by forfeiting a scholarship. Even if did it before, was punished for that, and promised to toe the line, it was a collection of simple mistakes this time. We have to let it go and move on. He was just trying too hard. He is a good coach and is returning IU to glory.

    2) Bill Belichick is a demon. He should be forever tagged as a cheater, no matter what he ever has done before or will do in the future. Every single accomplishment should be labelled a fraud. That's right, pull out those asterisks. The NFL thought so badly of him that they made him pay a hefty fine (half-million $$ or so?) and lose a player by forfeiting a draft pick.

    -----
    Personally I am a fan of both IU basketball and New England football. Both coaches disappointed me. I don't think that the transgressions of either one are so bad that they should be vilified as the scum of the Earth. I don't want either one fired and I don't think either's accomplishments should be minimized.

    -Both DID cheat. Sampson was punished at least twice, Belichick probably got away with it before he was finally punished.
    -Both deserves his punishment (hefty fine).
    -Both teams deserves their punishment (loss of a player).
    -The incident is an embarrassment to fans of both teams.

    There are some differences. Belichick's offense could have been used more directly to gain an advantage, while Sampson was just cutting some corners. The Patriots ownership at least openly owned up to the violation. Sampson apparently minimized it. After the offense, Belichick was put on zero tolerance by an angry owner. After the second offense, I'm not sure whether Sampson has yet had a fire lit under his butt. Belichick is respected as a great football coach with 3 championships. Sampson has been simply a pretty good coach. While I am a little rough on Kelvin Sampson, I think that both incidents are comparably minor. For some reason though I am more worried as an IU fan of this happening again than I am as a Pats fan of Belichick doing any illegal taping ever again.

    Now as a fan, when your team does something lousy, what do you do?

    there have been three personal examples for me as a fan:

    I have always been a fan of the Pacers. After the brawl the team supported Artest and Jackson, kept them on the team, Bird posed with Artest, the organization thought the league was too hard on them. The team imploded after Artest flaked out again. Sure they were not cheating, but the idiots that run the team darn-near ruined the franchise. Do I quit being a fan? Not yet-- I have hope that now they are "getting it" and will be worth following again.

    IU hired a coach with a tainted record with NCAA compliance. As a fan, I hoped that it was an anomaly and he will make IU basketball relevant again. I could not believe it when he was alleged to have done the the same damn thing. But it was true! Do I quit being a fan? Not yet-- I have hope that he finally is "getting it" and will behave ethically and also coach and recruit well.

    New England has a hall of fame level coach. Multiple rings. Great talent evaluator and teacher. I could not believe it when he was alleged to have taped coach's calls. But it was true! Do I quit being a fan? No, I was satisfied that the angry owner has made sure that he "gets it" and he will behave ethically and also coach well.

    I am willing to give my teams an opportunity to rise above the flaws of their head coach.

    I have a big problem with people demonizing Belichick and praising Sampson for getting caught "trying too hard"

    to me these groups of people are analogous:

    type A: people who think Belichick has never done anything that was seriously wrong or different from anybody else, and the league is just picking on him (never met anybody of that opinion, but maybe there is an idiot like that out there)

    equals

    Type A-prime: people who think Sampson has never done anything seriously wrong, and his critics are just picking on him for next to nothing

    ---
    type B: People who think that Belichick is a demon, should be banned orand forever humiliated no matter what he ever has done before or will do in the future, and every single accomplishment should be labelled a fraud (at least in part because I love the Colts and I hate the Patriots)

    equals

    type B-prime: People who think that Sampson is a demon and tarnishes IU by his mere presence, he cannot succeed and we must not let him succeed (at least in part because I worship the almighty coach Knight, and he is not RMK)

    --
    type C: People who are mad at the Patriots & Belichick for their audacity to try to cheat, but realize that it is silly to wipe out 7 years and assume that cheating was at the core of every accomplishment, and are willing to at least appreciate the team for its ability and give it credit so long as they are clean

    equals

    type C-prime: People who are mad at the IU & Sampson for their rule-bending, but realize that it is silly or at least a little premature to assume that they are rotten to the core and can't run a clean and competitive program

    I am a type C/type C-prime person.

    -----

    I find people holding up Belichick as the antichrist but at the same time clinging to the idea that "Sampson just got caught trying too hard" to be not just a little hypocritical, and they should realize that they are taking this Pats-Colts rivalry a bit too seriously.

    But if you would like to tell me how those positions are consistent, I will listen.

  2. #2
    Member Raoul Duke's Avatar
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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Kelvin is the man. It's over, now we are gonna win some more championships.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    When one loses his integrity everthing else is easy.


    IU's image will continue to sink as long as Sampson is there, count on more transgressions from him.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    -Both DID cheat. Sampson was punished at least twice, Belichick probably got away with it before he was finally punished.
    -Both deserves his punishment (hefty fine).
    -Both teams deserves their punishment (loss of a player).
    -The incident is an embarrassment to fans of both teams.
    I'm in this camp.

    However, BB* is "demonized," as you say, not just because of this incident. BB* is a very poor sportsman and generally appears to just be a miserable human being, unlike Sampson.

    Also, what BB* did implies the possibility that he's been doing it for a very long time, and in retrospect, that could have gained him a tremendous advantage over certain teams in that time frame.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    When one loses his integrity everthing else is easy.


    IU's image will continue to sink as long as Sampson is there, count on more transgressions from him.
    i agree. sampson has tarnished i.u.'s image in just his first year. he gets no pass from me. i will always support the hoosiers but, i will never support sampson, i do not trust him at all. i also agree he will do this yet again. he is a man with questionable ethics. i want him and greenspan both fired.
    even if i.u. wins a title under him, it will be a title i will not embrace.
    sampson is a good coach but, i don't want him here anymore. i doubt greenspan will fire him even when he screws up again because he would rather keep sampson around and not have to admit it was a mistake to hire the guy because it would be a blow to his ego. it would make him look incompetent if he were to fire sampson so soon. so for greenspan, i think the plan is to just stick with the mistake rather than admit to it.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    i agree. sampson has tarnished i.u.'s image in just his first year. he gets no pass from me. i will always support the hoosiers but, i will never support sampson, i do not trust him at all. i also agree he will do this yet again. he is a man with questionable ethics. i want him and greenspan both fired.
    even if i.u. wins a title under him, it will be a title i will not embrace.
    sampson is a good coach but, i don't want him here anymore. i doubt greenspan will fire him even when he screws up again because he would rather keep sampson around and not have to admit it was a mistake to hire the guy because it would be a blow to his ego. it would make him look incompetent if he were to fire sampson so soon. so for greenspan, i think the plan is to just stick with the mistake rather than admit to it.
    I'm not completely in this camp, as I believe that Sampson is a good coach and a good guy, he's just incredibly stupid.

    Now, if he breaks the rules again, I'm 100% in the "get the hell outta here" camp.

    I also think the NCAA will drop another year of sanctions on Sampson for this.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    I am a fan of both. I was vehemently opposed to the Sampson hiring. However, I withheld judgement and waited to see how it all unfolded. Well, they did improve much to my delight but now that improvement has been diminished in my eyes. Kelvin is either compulsive or just disregards the rules. He may be a nice guy but that doesn't give him a pass with me. I know it's naive but I believe Indiana basketball was built on a reputation of doing it the right way. Sampson doesn't seem to know the right way. Some people may never get it - We (as fans) want it done the right way.

    In that vein, what Belichick has done is no different than what Sampson did in my eyes. The difference comes in that Belichick is just a miserable human being. Yes, he may go down as a great coach, a championship coach, but he will also always be known as being a supreme pr!ck.

    It is clearly evident someone like Dungy wants his legacy to be judged by him "the man" and as opposed to him "the coach". This is where Sampson and Belichick fall short.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  8. #8

    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    At least Sampson seems not to be getting a free pass from fans here.

    The national media attention for Sampson's misdeeds seemed to have had about a 15-minute shelf life, while Belichick's has been two months and counting. That annoys me a little, because I think that they are qualitatively similar. You make phone calls to persuade recruits to come and play for you. So are we to assume that players ay IU recuited by Kelvin deserve an asterisk, e.g. Ben Gordon*? I would say yes, if you are putting that asterisk next to the Patriots this year, but of course neither deserves it.

    Both coaches deserved to squirm a week or so until the facts were out, and then the stories should have died away.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Belichick is just a miserable human being. Yes, he may go down as a great coach, a championship coach, but he will also always be known as being a supreme pr!ck.
    I think that you read far to much into having an on-field temper, a monotone speaking voice, and in general a dull personality.

    some of his un-miserable deeds:

    -He established a scholarship in his father's memory at Struthers High School in Struthers, Ohio, aiding recipients in achieving their goal of attending college.

    -Coach Belichick was a keynote speaker at the Frank McGuire Foundation's coaching seminar, addressing 600 New York-area high school coaches.

    -He raises over $500,000 annually in the Samsung's Four Seasons of Hope fundraising gala to aid children and families in need.

    -He is also a supporter of Hall of Famer Jim Brown's Amer-I-Can Foundation and has made speeches and appearances for Brown's foundation.

    -The Belichick family launched a charitable foundation benefitting the Zelma George Home, a shelter for homeless women and children.

    -The Belichicks also established an annual scholarship awarded to an Annapolis High School senior for academic and athletic achievement.

    -Coach Belichick has participated in dozens of community events in New England, including the March of Dimes Walk America, the Rodman Ride for Kids, RoxComp's Reading is the Best Medicine Program, the Mayors Cup Regatta on the Charles River to benefit AccesSportAmerica, a charity dedicated to fitness of children and adults with disabilities, and several events benefiting the Lazarus House, a non-profit charity serving the homeless of Merrimack Valley.

    http://www.patriots.com/team/index.c...achbio&bio=506

    Like Bob Knight, the guy can be a major a-hole. He is a lot less humorous and interesting as a speaker than RMK.

    But with all the things he does, when people just insist he is a pr!ck and a "miserable human being" because of what they see on TV, they might not be seeing much of the real person.

    It is admirable to do all that stuff while coaching an NFL team and raising a family. I wish he could be more gracious with the postgame handshake, but that should not define him.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 11-09-2007 at 02:15 PM.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Pacertom

    I'm not trying to be facetious here, but there are a lot of people who do a lot of things in "name only". I'm not saying this is the case with Belichick but it happens all over.

    That said, I really do believe he is walking on thin ice where the league is involved. He is also responsible for the image he puts out there and it appears he has chosen to be viewed as a total jerk.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  11. #11

    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Like Bob Knight, I think that he cares not even a little bit about his image.

    FWIW When I lived there he was always viewed as more active in the community that anyone from the Red Sox, Celtics, or Bruins.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    If I'm Greenspan (IU), behind the scenes I'm telling Sampson one more violation and you're gone. No questions asked. I wouldn't make it a public no tolerance deal like Brand did w/ Knight b/c doing that publicly is not the best way to handle the situation. Although Brand might have felt the need to get the public ready for firing a legend.

    Belicheck is an *******, but a great coach. As is Knight. If they're on your side you admit the negative but focus on the positive. In the reverse, they're guys you love to hate but have to at least respect as far as their accomplishments in sports.

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    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    At least Sampson seems not to be getting a free pass from fans here.

    The national media attention for Sampson's misdeeds seemed to have had about a 15-minute shelf life, while Belichick's has been two months and counting. That annoys me a little, because I think that they are qualitatively similar. You make phone calls to persuade recruits to come and play for you. So are we to assume that players ay IU recuited by Kelvin deserve an asterisk, e.g. Ben Gordon*? I would say yes, if you are putting that asterisk next to the Patriots this year, but of course neither deserves it.

    Both coaches deserved to squirm a week or so until the facts were out, and then the stories should have died away.
    1.) You mean Eric Gordon.

    2.) There are records of which recruits received the phone calls violating the sanctions and I don't think a single one of them signed with IU.

    3.) I don't agree with what Sampson or Belichick did, and I think both should be fired if they get caught violating another rule.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: are any of you Colts fans also diehard IU basketball fans?

    "EJ" Eric Gordon, of course.



    when you get in your mid-forties, you even start absent-mindedly calling your own kids by the wrong names!
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 11-10-2007 at 02:23 PM.

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