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Thread: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Hmmmmmm......

    Something struck me early on. No Quis or Kareem in the first half and Rush only got some minor slop min. to end the game.

    Kind of odd after his play the last game, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes there. Hopefully nothing but who knows...

    Anyway this was just a loss, period. Never get to up after a win and try not to get to down after a loss.

    The team just didn't have it going on last night and frankly nothing looked right for most of the game.

    Some of it was just poor play and excution on our part but a whole lot of it had to do with the very very aggresive defense that L.A. was playing.

    Well that and Cassell and Kaman were out of thier minds good.

    In fact whenever I saw Kaman play part of me saw this.


    but mostly I saw this



    To say he owned us is a vast understatement.

    We had nobody, and I mean nobody, who even phased this guy. This suprises some of you but to anybody who has seen him play over the past few years I don't think it was a huge suprise. He's actualy very very good.

    We had O'Neal on him whenever he was in, which honestly suprised me and he couldn't touch him. Foster was irrelevant to him, Murphy was never on him much but when he was he was useless as well. Harrison at least moved him a little but still had no lasting affect against him.

    Hell in the first half Kaman pulled the chair on David while Harrison was trying to block out for a rebound.

    He was hitting left handed hooks, right handed hooks and even once threw the dream shake on us.

    Sam was his usual Pacer killing self.

    Jamaal seemed in a funk, that is all I will say about it. I don't know what was up or if it was just one of those games but Jamaal for the most part was at best a neutral impact on the floor but mostly a negative impact.

    Travis did not fair well at all and I pray for the time his shot gets back to pre-season form.

    Andre Owens actually looked about the best out there and that is not saying he looked good at all, he just looked better than the rest.

    Not all was bad though.

    I thought Shawne looked good in his time on the floor. I thought Danny and Mike were trying, they just couldn't get on track. J.O. did well although he seemed a little winded at times.

    Hey, it's a loss. Not an earth shattering loss, just a loss.

    BTW, anybody who wants to say that we lost because Murphy was back is just purely a hater at this point in time.

    He did not play good, he did not play bad. He just played, again I found Foster to be any more appealing on the floor although Jeff did hit a couple of nice jumpers but then proceded to once again miss point blank layups.

    We move on Friday to the Bobcats and hopefully back on the winning track.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    OB said after the game that Rush and Daniels missed the past two practices with nagging injuries and that Williams deserved some time.

    Peck, I agree with you I thought Murphy played pretty well.

    Jeff did miss one easy layup he should have made. Another inside shot was a tough one - a controlled tip through at least one defender.

    I have no idea why we weren't fronting Kaman. We just allowed him to get the ball. Why not make them complete a perfect pass over the top - I didn't understand that. We fronted Shaq more than Kaman
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-08-2007 at 08:16 AM.

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    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Only thing that disappoints me about this loss is that it only took four games for JOB's assertions on the TV commercials etc. that we'd see a team that hustled and played with intensity every night win or lose to be undone.

    There weren't that many guys I saw out there doing that consistently if at all. So injuries, lack of conditioning, guys exiting and returning and so forth, but you can still see a concerted effort from everybody on the floor.

    I realize it's just one loss and that in a long season there will be a few clunkers. It's inevitable. If that's the case, we should notice renewed effort quickly and last night's performance serves its purpose.

    I will say I'd gladly take an uptick in Shawne's minutes, especially with Ike out. I like the look of Foster's midrange J when he's shot it, but would like to see it in combination with a little more of his traditional ferocity on the glass and pursuing loose balls.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Jeff did miss one easy layup he should have made. Another inside shot was a tough one - a controlled tip through at least one defender.
    I have a stat question that doesn't deserve its own thread, so I'll just ask it here: does a tip-in count as a bucket AND a rebound?

    If it doesn't count as a rebound as well, me thinks a lot of guys wouldn't do it--they'd grab the rebound first and put it back up.

    P.S. Sounds like we may have missed Ike. I recall several points in the last three games where we were stalling and Ike's offense re-igited us.
    .

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    I'd say the team looked OK through the first half after being caught a little flat-footed in the beginning. In the second half, they just looked tired.

    My speculation, for what it's worth:

    1) It looked like the Clips sent most of their guys straight to the Pacers' basket on transition in many cases. This came from both knowing that we were going to put up quick shots and that we were having a poor shooting night. They let us take the outside shot and then just scooped up the rebound.

    2) The Pacers slowed down a lot to combat this, which threw their timing off completely. The spacing was horrible, though I did comment to my seatmates that I was really happy to see an actual pick being set rather than just a half-hearted gesture.

    3) On defense, the wind got taken out of the Pacers' sails by a couple of (I thought) very questionable blocking calls in the 3rd quarter. From that point on the defense just lost what aggressiveness it had - prior to that we had guys flinging themselves into the path of penetration.

    4) The result came as we all would have expected - if a team that lives by the quick outside shot can't make 'em - and if the opponent is shooting the lights out, I couldn't BELIEVE some of the contested shots that went in - you can't win.

    5) There were some rather odd combinations of players on the floor, some of which I didn't care for at all. I hope this was really just JOB trying some things out that proved not to work rather than indicators of things to come.


    Overall, I don't buy that this team fell back to "don't care" status. I actually think some of the early success caught up with them and they had an off night - I didn't see anyone lying around out there. On the other hand, at least one team figured out a strategy for confronting our offense - it will be interesting to see what JOB works on to get past that.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I have a stat question that doesn't deserve its own thread, so I'll just ask it here: does a tip-in count as a bucket AND a rebound?

    If it doesn't count as a rebound as well, me thinks a lot of guys wouldn't do it--they'd grab the rebound first and put it back up.

    P.S. Sounds like we may have missed Ike. I recall several points in the last three games where we were stalling and Ike's offense re-igited us.


    Yes it does count as a rebound and a shot.

    Yeah, I hadn't thought about missing Ike, but I think you are correct, we did miss him and his ability to score

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    P.S. Sounds like we may have missed Ike. I recall several points in the last three games where we were stalling and Ike's offense re-igited us.
    Yep. This was a classic example of a practice schedule loss......
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Peck wrote...

    "Travis did not fair well at all and I pray for the time his shot gets back to pre-season form."

    I guess I don't see where this is even remotely true. Granted he had trouble with Sam but everyone had trouble with Sam. I thought Diener did the best job of attacking the Clipper's defense as evidenced by his 5 assists and 0 turnovers in 11:29. He shot 2 of 5 from 3 which is not terrible by any means.

    In fact I was not happy that Obie took Diener out of the game in the first half with Dickau still on the floor. And in the second half I thought Diener was getting his teammates wide open shots but they were unable to knock anything down.
    Last edited by Midwest Hoops; 11-08-2007 at 09:46 AM.

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    I think BillS is spot on on this one, especially after I got to watch the first half on TV last night. This team isn't blowing things off; it just "didn't have it" after midway through the 3rd. Up until then they looked about the same as the first 3 games.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I think BillS is spot on on this one, especially after I got to watch the first half on TV last night. This team isn't blowing things off; it just "didn't have it" after midway through the 3rd. Up until then they looked about the same as the first 3 games.
    That may be true, but to be a good team we'll have to find a way to win games where we shoot poorly.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    but we should have seen this


    All it took was backcourt pressure and Kaman would not have had the night he had. I hope that this team learns that just because the shots don't fall that you stop playing defense. And I don't care that Daniels and Rush missed practices. You use players that can help you win games. I know daniels could have played better than Tins. Eddie Gill could have played better than him.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    In the third quarter, we clearly missed the nuances that Ike and Quis bring to the offense.

    The Clippers did a great job stopping dribble penetration.

  13. #13
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Clippers looked really good last night - they really did on both ends. Dunleavy Sr plays a defensive style that forces teams to shoot from the outside and obviously the Pacers were not hitting their shots, so we played right into the Clips hands.

    I didn't however, come away thinking the Pacers didn't give enough effort, I thought they played hard. They wewre trying to win, they were playing hard (well until about the 5 minute mark of the 4th) but they were beaten by a team that just outplayed us. Sam demoralized us and then when the Clips did miss it seemed like they were getting a ton of offensive rebounds which caused further frustration.

    I personnally wanted to see more of Diener and Daniels - I think those two should work very well together on both ends. I would like to see daniels run a few pick and rolls and Diener play off the ball coming of screens - I think that would be effective.

    As we saw last night there was a good reason why the pacers would use Reggie to defend Cassell and Travis best would defend Ray Allen - back in the pacers vs Bucks playoff days . Sam isn't very quick, he is crafty and you really need a taller guy on him and you have to make him drive, and front him in the post, please.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    That may be true, but to be a good team we'll have to find a way to win games where we shoot poorly.
    Yes...and ideally we will have to get there in order to be a truly good team.

    But I don't think we can ignore the role the mental frustration played in this. These guys had been hitting on all cylinders offensively over the first three games (not to mention preseason) and were probably feeling unstoppable, and totally buying into the freedom and efficiency of this offense -- especially the guys that had been playing under Rick for so long.

    Then their precious offense hit a wall. Hard.

    So I got the feeling there was a drop in morale and confidence where the guys were like "What's going on here? What is happening? Mommy, help!"

    Now that we've been through that, hopefully they'll recognize the stalled offense quicker and respond better. What that will take, I don't know, but they'll figure it out as the next few weeks go by and at least shouldn't have that same shell-shock, curl-up-in-the-fetal-position look out there.


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    Last edited by JayRedd; 11-08-2007 at 01:19 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    We missed Quis's presence on D and we missed Ike's presence on offense if you ask me. We didn't have the same affect on tip balls and things like that like we do when Quis is playing.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    but mostly I saw this

    Funny....whenever I see Kaman...I don't think Thor....I think Cro-Magnon Cave-man with his huge brow and thinning hair.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    He did not play good, he did not play bad. He just played, again I found Foster to be any more appealing on the floor although Jeff did hit a couple of nice jumpers but then proceded to once again miss point blank layups.
    I agree with everything you said Peck except for this part about Murphy. I thought Troy did play bad and was totally out of sync last night. Granted it's hard to get your rhythm when you haven't played against another team in almost a month. I'm not down on him though cause I didn't expect much from him with it being his first game back.

    You'll probably find this strange but I think Diener actually defended Cassell the best. Even stranger, my wife was the one that pointed this out to me. In fact, I think the Pacers played best when Diener was on the floor (I wish the plus minus link was working on Pacers.com).

    However, right now I'm a little dissapointed in the PG play overall.

    I wish Obie had played Shawne and David Harrison more.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    nap, you don't have to go to the +/- link, they have it in the box scores now.


    http://www.nba.com/games/20071107/LACIND/boxscore.html

    JT had the worst, Williams had the best. Just looking at the plus/minus, it would appear the starters should have stayed home, but I don't put much stock in the +/-. I mean it is worth a glance, but nothing more than that.

    Although I wonder how Kravitz point about the Pacers falling way behind when JO was on the bench, how is that even possible when JO has a -18.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    nap, you don't have to go to the +/- link, they have it in the box scores now.


    http://www.nba.com/games/20071107/LACIND/boxscore.html

    JT had the worst, Williams had the best. Just looking at the plus/minus, it would appear the starters should have stayed home, but I don't put much stock in the +/-. I mean it is worth a glance, but nothing more than that.

    Although I wonder how Kravitz point about the Pacers falling way behind when JO was on the bench, how is that even possible when JO has a -18.
    For the season.....you can also look at this +/-

    http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/plus_minus_0708.pdf

    Dunleavy and Tinsley are the only ones above the +/- average for the team...with Granger and Harrison the next best players. But for some reason...they don't have JONeal listed.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...



    Did someone say Thor?

    Guess who the dude is in the pic...
    Last edited by MyFavMartin; 11-08-2007 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Trying to add picture that didn't post in original submission

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I agree with everything you said Peck except for this part about Murphy. I thought Troy did play bad and was totally out of sync last night. Granted it's hard to get your rhythm when you haven't played against another team in almost a month. I'm not down on him though cause I didn't expect much from him with it being his first game back.

    You'll probably find this strange but I think Diener actually defended Cassell the best. Even stranger, my wife was the one that pointed this out to me. In fact, I think the Pacers played best when Diener was on the floor (I wish the plus minus link was working on Pacers.com).

    However, right now I'm a little dissapointed in the PG play overall.

    I wish Obie had played Shawne and David Harrison more.
    On nba.com it has Diener as +3 for 11 min and change as opposed to Tinman who was -22.

    I wish I saw the game and could comment, but I agree with the Shawne and David comment in hindsight.

    Why couldn't we go through JO in the post when the Ps shots weren't falling to get their FC in foul trouble?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
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    Did someone say Thor?

    Guess who the dude is in the pic...
    My guess is Muriel Hemingway or the guy from "Adventures in Babysitting" that the little girl thought was Thor.
    Last edited by CableKC; 11-08-2007 at 02:43 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Member Raoul Duke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Odd

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    Thor was played by Vincent D'Onofrio right?

    Wow, just looked it up. He did this and Full Metal Jacket in the same year?!
    Last edited by Raoul Duke; 11-08-2007 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts on losing to the clips...

    This is my rifle, this is my gun. This one's for killin, this one's for fun.

    God I love that movie.

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