Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Millionaires and Billionaires

  1. #1

    Default Millionaires and Billionaires

    I don't think this topic deserves to be in the Pacers section, but I'm curious. The question is, how does someone's attitudes towards money changes when they become rich and super-rich? Not being rich myself, I know that I don't know how they think.

    Consider the issue of a buyout of Jamaal Tinsley's contract. Jamaal is already a multi-millionaire. A lot of people are saying he would never consider a buyout for a reduced amount because he would want all the millions he is promised under his contract. I ask, why?

    It seems just as likely to me that he would prefer to take the money and run. He obviously doesn't enjoy playing basketball very much. He has never been any kind of a Chris Mullin gym rat who just loves to be on the court shooting. And he doesn't seem to have any pride compelling him to prove that he is a competitor and a winner.

    Why wouldn't Tinsley be happy to take $40 million or even $35 million and go play with it? Doesn't he see that, in order to get the full amount of his contract, he's got to go through the motions for 3 more years, attending team meetings and sitting behind the players in a suit during games and actually playing in 20-30 games a season? If he could take 2/3 or 3/4 of the amount of his contract, and go back to New York with it he could go to all the 3am titty bars he wants to. Why wouldn't he want to do that?

    Now look at the issue from Herb Simon's point-of-view. He's well more than a billionaire. Even Tinsley's multi-millions are small change to him. I would guess that Simon is more used to discussing investments of hundreds of millions than tens of millions, and he makes decisions involving tens or hundreds of millions of dollars every week. Simon wants results, and he knows that decisions lead to results. He's already got plenty of personal wealth and a successful family business. What he wants out of the Pacers is respect in the community and a sense that he's used his wealth and his business acumen to help the community.

    Simon has taken over as GM because he wants to accomplish the change. He wants to get the recent malaise behind and make the team popular and profitable again. He knows that current investment leads to future revenue streams. So why wouldn't Simon buy out Tinsley's contract, if no trades can be accomplished? The coach has already said Tinsley is not in the team's future. Tinsley's contract is not much to Simon's wealth, thought it is an apalling amount in the Pacers' bottom line.

    Again, my question is less about the Pacers roster and salary cap than about the mentality of millionaires and billionaires. What do you think?
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  2. #2
    Member idioteque's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    washington dc
    Age
    28
    Posts
    9,513

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    When you look at Tinsley's salary you have to look past Tinsley. Based off of what I have read about him in the past, the dude supports like 20 members of his family and friends off of what he makes in the NBA. That could have something to do with it.

  3. #3
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    And along with what dcpacersfan said, I think the mentality of any player is "get what you can get", with rare exception.

    I'm moving this to the Pacers board because it's about Jamaal Tinsley and Herb Simon.

  4. #4
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    44,230

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Greed.

  5. #5
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think this topic deserves to be in the Pacers section, but I'm curious. The question is, how does someone's attitudes towards money changes when they become rich and super-rich? Not being rich myself, I know that I don't know how they think.

    Consider the issue of a buyout of Jamaal Tinsley's contract. Jamaal is already a multi-millionaire. A lot of people are saying he would never consider a buyout for a reduced amount because he would want all the millions he is promised under his contract. I ask, why?

    It seems just as likely to me that he would prefer to take the money and run. He obviously doesn't enjoy playing basketball very much. He has never been any kind of a Chris Mullin gym rat who just loves to be on the court shooting. And he doesn't seem to have any pride compelling him to prove that he is a competitor and a winner.

    Why wouldn't Tinsley be happy to take $40 million or even $35 million and go play with it? Doesn't he see that, in order to get the full amount of his contract, he's got to go through the motions for 3 more years, attending team meetings and sitting behind the players in a suit during games and actually playing in 20-30 games a season? If he could take 2/3 or 3/4 of the amount of his contract, and go back to New York with it he could go to all the 3am titty bars he wants to. Why wouldn't he want to do that?

    Now look at the issue from Herb Simon's point-of-view. He's well more than a billionaire. Even Tinsley's multi-millions are small change to him. I would guess that Simon is more used to discussing investments of hundreds of millions than tens of millions, and he makes decisions involving tens or hundreds of millions of dollars every week. Simon wants results, and he knows that decisions lead to results. He's already got plenty of personal wealth and a successful family business. What he wants out of the Pacers is respect in the community and a sense that he's used his wealth and his business acumen to help the community.

    Simon has taken over as GM because he wants to accomplish the change. He wants to get the recent malaise behind and make the team popular and profitable again. He knows that current investment leads to future revenue streams. So why wouldn't Simon buy out Tinsley's contract, if no trades can be accomplished? The coach has already said Tinsley is not in the team's future. Tinsley's contract is not much to Simon's wealth, thought it is an apalling amount in the Pacers' bottom line.

    Again, my question is less about the Pacers roster and salary cap than about the mentality of millionaires and billionaires. What do you think?

    1. We only owe Tinsley $21.6 mil over the next three years, so I hope nobody throws $35 or $40 mil at him to make him go away.

    2. I'm sure that Tinsley would be amenable to a buyout at perhaps a cash-discounted rate because then he could go out and get another paycheck (yes, another team would sign him on the cheap). However, he's not going to give a huge discount because he'd be right in thinking that he could make himself more money, faster. If it's not about the game, as you say, then it's gotta be only about the green.

    3. Simon and guys like him didn't get to be mega-millionaires by piling $20 mm in the middle of the floor and setting fire to it. Essentially, your proposing that Herb hand over roughly 15-20% of next year's revenue just to get rid of a PR problem. Do you suppose that we'll immediately be able to sell about 8,500 more seats a night? (One Year Payback) 5,000? 2,500? There's simply no return on the investment of the buyout, particularly with three years left. If you buy him out, you're out the money sooner, and I believe (though I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) Tinsley will still sit on our cap/tax figure for the next three years like the giant turd that he is. Keep him, you can maybe deal him for a player who, though they may have a grotesque contract, could at least be serviceable for more than 35 games a year.

    4. Money is money, and more often than not, the idea that more is better holds pretty true regardless of one's tax bracket. I've never been wild about speculating about what we would do if we were that rich, because none of us have a single flipping clue. Odds are we'd be completely different than who we are now. I couldn't care less about Tinsley, but a buyout is a bad fiscal decision for the Pacers organization.

  6. #6
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,939

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    I believe once a person reaches a point where money is no longer a concern it becomes about ego, legacy, and respect of peers.

    I also think this is pure human nature not exclusive to athletes.

    Although they are obviously far more likely to reach the point of not needing any more money.

  7. #7
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Twes View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I believe once a person reaches a point where money is no longer a concern it becomes about ego, legacy, and respect of peers.

    I also think this is pure human nature not exclusive to athletes.

    Although they are obviously far more likely to reach the point of not needing any more money.
    I think this is true, with two adjustments:

    1. They still use money to keep score

    and

    2. Very few people reach that point in their heads. (They may be financially secure for generations, but most will always want more.)

  8. #8
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,939

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think this is true, with two adjustments:

    1. They still use money to keep score

    and

    2. Very few people reach that point in their heads. (They may be financially secure for generations, but most will always want more.)
    I agree with the keeping score part.

    And as Pat Ewing said they make a lot of money but they spend a lot of money.

    And taking that to the extreme we always have the Mike Tyson example.

    Dying broke one day after $400 million in earnings -- I guess he just needed a bigger cushion for rainy days.
    Last edited by Twes; 04-23-2008 at 12:12 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Count55, that's a good reply.

    First, thanks for clarifying Tinsley's actual salary through 2011. I wrote before I looked up the amount and then neglected to revise it.


    "Simon and guys like him didn't get to be mega-millionaires by piling $20 mm in the middle of the floor and setting fire to it."

    Well, your analogy may not be the right one, but I'd say wealthy people cut their losses all the time. I'm sure they've divested many times of properties that were harmful to their bottom line. Other Simon malls around Indianapolis suffered when Circle Center opened. But I'm sure the bottom line of Simon Properties gained. The willingness to cut losses is just as essential to getting rich as finding profitable ventures is.


    In your reply, you assess Tinsley's salary as a share of the Pacers' payroll. Yeah, it is a whopping part of Pacers' revenue. But his salary is puny compared to Simon's bank account. The interesting question is, does it make sense for a billionaire to sit for years watching the team slowly pull itself up from the muck, all the time hurting his reputation, or to reach into his pocket and push the process along with an amount of money that he won't even feel?

    When I started this thread, I asked about the mentalities of the rich and the super rich -- not about the adviseability of buying out Tinsley. I understand that he may be worth the most as an expiring contract a year or two in the future.
    Last edited by Putnam; 04-23-2008 at 01:06 PM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  10. #10
    streets ahead
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    DC
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5,754

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    the other thing to consider with buying out tinsley say this summer is that for the next three years it will count against our cap. his $6.75mil doesn't just disappear - it'll hold the spot whether he is still on the team or not. some teams will do it with two years left on the deal but i doubt the pacers would want to stomach three years of his deal holding us hostage.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  11. #11
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Count55, that's a good reply.

    First, thanks for clarifying Tinsley's actual salary through 2011. I wrote before I looked up the amount and then neglected to revise it.


    "Simon and guys like him didn't get to be mega-millionaires by piling $20 mm in the middle of the floor and setting fire to it."

    Well, your analogy may not be the right one, but I'd say wealthy people cut their losses all the time. I'm sure they've divested many times of properties that were harmful to their bottom line. Other Simon malls around Indianapolis suffered when Circle Center opened. But I'm sure the bottom line of Simon Properties gained. The willingness to cut losses is just as essential to getting rich as finding profitable ventures is.


    In your reply, you assess Tinsley's salary as a share of the Pacers' payroll. Yeah, it is a whopping part of Pacers' revenue. But his salary is puny compared to Simon's bank account. The interesting question is, does it make sense for a billionaire to sit for years watching the team slowly pull itself up from the muck, all the time hurting his reputation, or to reach into his pocket and push the process along with an amount of money that he won't even feel?

    When I started this thread, I asked about the mentalities of the rich and the super rich -- not about the adviseability of buying out Tinsley. I understand that he may be worth the most as an expiring contract a year or two in the future.
    OK...I probably blurred the lines on the question because that's how it is in my mind. Yes, you're right, that someone as obscenely wealthy is more likely to say "**** it" and dump Tinsley, but I think that would have to be a major departure from what most people would consider to be a reasonable decision.

    I also agree and understand with your "cut the losses" analogy, but my view is that this type of move would be more of a "cut your nose off to spite your face" type of move, increasing our losses.

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Little Rock, AR
    Age
    28
    Posts
    1,367

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    The idea that Jamaal doesn't enjoy playing basketball is so utterly absurd I don't even know where to begin.

    Jamaal, the kid who grew up in the ghetto without any money or a father, who stayed clean despite all the people around him resorting to gang banging and drugs, just so he could focus on playing more basketball. This guy, it turns out, doesn't like basketball?

    Basketball, the game he has devoted his life too, which has helped him, and then his entire family, get out of the ghetto, has certainly been a bane on his existence, right?

    "He obviously doesn't enjoy playing basketball much..." dude, you're so out of your mind biased against the guy I'm sure you probably believe any slander or libel about him without a second thought.

  13. #13
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,618

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Putnum, I think another key point Count made was that there is a reason for "cutting losses". Having an investiment that will CONTINUE to lose money is not the same as as a buy out in a pure sense. If they could "get out now" before having to pay Tinsley even more that would be one thing, but they've already made the full purchase. So the benefits are tied to getting the most value out of the product they now own in full. They incur no new costs simply to keep Tins (barring a Starbury "you don't know what I've got on Bird" arrangement ).

    What are the BENEFITS financially?

    Buyout - if a full cash-out then you assume a discount. How much would that be?

    Attendence - would Tinsley remaining on payroll continue to ON IT'S OWN make a significant difference to attendence? Would ticket sales go up simply because Tins was bought out with no other changes/improvements, and how much would that be?

    General sales - would merchandising and other corollaries also see any kind of significant impact from this move?

    Chemistry - does having Tins on payroll even if he's not with the team impact their mood and ability to play to their fullest, thus impacting wins and attendence?


    Now the costs
    Cap hit - would maintaining a cap hit for Tinsley with NO POSSIBILITY to remove it (ala a trade) impact the team's ability to compete and therefore to improve sales.

    Loss of asset - even if he's worth a bag of basketballs, you just gave those balls away for free if you buy him out. ANYTHING you could get for Tins for equal or less cost in total is lost in a buyout. And less cost in a deal would mean some small cap relief too.


    Many of us have said that image vs wins is no contest when it comes to impacting ticket sales and I still stand by that. Buying out Tinsley doesn't come close to improving the chance for wins that dealing him properly does, even if that requires a passing of some amount of time to improve what his deal means to other teams.

    Tinsley wasn't on the court for something like 3 months to end the season. Attendence remained terrible, or perhaps even got worse as the losses piled up. The same was true with Jackson/Rio as post-trade the losses brought attendence lower than it already was in response to the Rio thing, rather than improving the situation.

    I also agree and understand with your "cut the losses" analogy, but my view is that this type of move would be more of a "cut your nose off to spite your face" type of move, increasing our losses.
    I agree.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 04-23-2008 at 03:23 PM.

  14. #14
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    Depending on what they're using for Cost of Capital, the buyout could be anywhere from $16 to $19 million, but that would be just cash factoring. From a return on investment basis, the Pacers would need to convince Tinsley to take something less than the value of the Discounted Cash Flows, (probably in the $12-14 million range), but I can't think of any even vaguely competent financial advisor that wouldn't be able to tell Tinsley he was coming out on the short end of that scenario.

  15. #15
    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A-Town , Indiana
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,976

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    As much as I have been disgusted with Tinsley , his bad decision making skills , not only off the court... but on the court running the team. , I don't dislike the guy as a person.....

    But if ANY trades are to be made this summer.. he better be the FIRST in line.. before ANY player on our current roster...

    But unless the only way we can get a piece we NEED... is if we have to package him up with the likes of Owens , Marquis , or Harrison... We need to figure out a way to get something in return for him...

    I still love JO , and want to see him come back full force ... but if it means getting letting him go with Tinsley together... to get a starting defensive big man , or a smart defensive point guard to run along-side Diener... then that is what we have to do...
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

  16. #16
    Junior Member The Toxic Avenger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,389

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    I'm with most folks above. When you've got money it just becomes about what everyone else thinks of you.

    I've heard stories of people "Like" donald trump, MJ, bill gates who ever losing thousands of dollars on bets regarding golf or things like that... and if they (the stories) are true then they don't really mind losing money because its on "Their Terms" but if they were conned out of one dollar they would be PO'd. It becomes a matter of respect or fear or something to do with their "Street Cred" amonst the other billionaires. So as for YOUR scenario If Simon offered a buyout then he would be willing to pay almost the full amount because it would be on "his" terms but Tinsley wouldn't accept because he'd take it as a slap in the proverbial face.

    Putty the thread starter of a Pacers topic? At least it wasn't YOUR idea.

  17. #17
    Member efx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,657

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    "Money is like saltwater, the more you drink the thirstier you'll get"
    -Schopenhauer

  18. #18
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,751

    Default Re: Millionaires and Billionaires

    "Cash rules everything around me."
    - The Wu-Tang Clan

    Dolla, dolla bill y'all!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •