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Thread: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    To all posters on the "Politics Board"

    It has come to our attention that the "free flowing discussion" we had foreseen and anticipated on this board has gotten out of hand and into a situation where "new" posters either stay away or run away from this particular part of Pacers Digest.

    This of course is not acceptable under any circumstance.

    We (the administrators of this forum) fully understand that politics are likely to lead to a polarization of positions at times and accepting that fact we have more or less turned our back on this board.
    It was however never our intention to create a board where people are "*****1ng" at each other and where the polarization has become the de facto standard for the board.

    The harsh language between members of this board is something each and everyone of you would get warned or send on a long vacation for on any of our other boards and it is only because so many administrators have put the worst trespassers on ignore and then ignore in general the board completely what has allowed this to go unfettered.

    It has however come to an end.

    We had two options; one was closing down this board, the easiest solution, and the other one was to enforce our "standard" to this board.

    We have chosen for the latter.

    We encourage discussion on all topics; we realize that certainly on a "political" board the temperatures can sometimes get above the national standard, however we do not accept that de facto exceptions become the standard.

    You are therefore cordially invited to read well the rules for Pacers Digest as they are published all over the forum.

    Once you have read those rules we would like to emphasize that posting articles from other sites is acceptable under "circumstances" while taking in all the rules we have attached to such a posting, however the most fundamental rule for doing it should be that it is "news".

    The posting of obscure (or less mainstream) articles with only the word "discuss" or "have at it" is in direct contradiction with the rules and should at all time be prevented.

    IF you have an opinion that is underwritten by said article, then you can just cut&paste the "important" alineas, but never more then 1/3 of the entire article.
    The rules for source and link remain exactly the same for quotes as they are for full articles.

    If an article is "news" then on occasion we can "live" with the posting of said article, but beware, the admins are "judge, jury & executioner" if they think it isnít news, it's gone.

    Finally we think you should all heed extreme attention to the following:

    We have on Pacers Digest a system where we hand out "warnings" and cards for breaking those rules that are particularly of interest to the politics board, rude language, insulting other posters and such now are warned with a "card" of which you will be notified per PM.
    The first infraction is usually a warning, the second and sub sequential warnings will be yellow or red cards which give the poster "points". These points are set to evaporate after 30 days, but within that time frame new ones are counted towards a total, surpassing the pre-set total in a period from receiving the first one can result in short to very long holidays away from Pacers Digest.

    We will use those cards from now on in this board as well (until now we have only used them on other boards).

    We hope that in making our position clear we do not have to close down the board and that it may return to what it once was; a place for people of all walks and nationality to discuss what interests or worries them in local or global politics.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Sounds fair. Thanks, able.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    EDIT: Now, I know. I misread it on my first attempt. Damned English language and my lack of reading comprehension!

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder View Post
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    I've never seen anything really get out of hand.
    I know exactly what he's having a problem with, and have complained about it, although not to the admins, on many occasions. I think it's a long overdue change. Although the few posters it affects most are likely to leave for more accomodating surroundings I think.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I know exactly what he's having a problem with, and have complained about it, although not to the admins, on many occasions. I think it's a long overdue change. Although the few posters it affects most are likely to leave for more accomodating surroundings I think.
    I gotcha now. See my post above.

    It's a good change, IMO.

  6. #6
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    I guess I am odd man out because I liked the Politics Board just the way it is. Most of the debates always reined themselves in and it is the politics board so anyone wading in here should expect debates, maybe even some mudslinging. Most people 'figuratively' shook hands at the end of the day and agreed to disagree or simply moved on.

    And I certainly don't have a problem seeing articles posted. Again, it's the politics forum. If you post an article that you agree with and want 'the other side' to try and rebut, what is there to say initially? Again, it's the Politics forum and everyone should know these Opinion pieces (or news pieces) are posted as fodder for discussion. So now they need cluttered up with the original poster adding "This is exactly what I was thinking. I agree entirely" and then adding a few things that again simply says he agree with the article and poking the sleeping bear on the other side of the aisle?

    Again... It's the Politics board. IMHO it should be "Enter at your own risk and be prepared to debate your points" not "Don't hurt anyone's feelings"

    You're fixing what isn't broken....

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    You're fixing what isn't broken....

    -Bball
    Sorry, bball, but we've got lots of complaints that say the opposite.

    This is supposed to be a place for PD members to share thier opinions and discussions, not a place for partisan monologues as a means to beat down everyone that disagrees with them.

    We've been discussing a full spectrum of ways to fix the problems of this board, and the consensus is, "let's try this."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I know exactly what he's having a problem with, and have complained about it, although not to the admins, on many occasions. I think it's a long overdue change. Although the few posters it affects most are likely to leave for more accomodating surroundings I think.
    Exactly.

    For those of you saying it isnt broken, I ask you to look around and see how many new posters have actually entered this forum and become regulars. The number is very low, and I dont think it is because of their lack pf political knoweldge.

    Although from my POV I think the politics forum is a bit excessive, this is Pacers Digest, not Politics Digest, but I do think a change was in order, and I thought this a long, long time ago. Hell, I can remember being intimidated to even look at this forum, and I happen to think its great that the whole "name calling" and "x person sucks" talk is being taken care of the way it is.

    Just my .02

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    Sorry, bball, but we've got lots of complaints that say the opposite.

    This is supposed to be a place for PD members to share thier opinions and discussions, not a place for partisan monologues as a means to beat down everyone that disagrees with them.

    We've been discussing a full spectrum of ways to fix the problems of this board, and the consensus is, "let's try this."
    I just think people need a thicker skin when wading into the pool of politics. People need to debate their points better, not complain to the mods if they don't like how the debate is going. Do people expect the other debater to come to their POV? That misses the point IMHO. The debaters most always have their positions set in stone. It's the observers with an open mind that take away something from the debates.

    But, alas, as I stated in the other post in this thread- I guess I am odd man out.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Exactly.

    For those of you saying it isnt broken, I ask you to look around and see how many new posters have actually entered this forum and become regulars. The number is very low, and I dont think it is because of their lack pf political knoweldge.

    Although from my POV I think the politics forum is a bit excessive, this is Pacers Digest, not Politics Digest, but I do think a change was in order, and I thought this a long, long time ago. Hell, I can remember being intimidated to even look at this forum, and I happen to think its great that the whole "name calling" and "x person sucks" talk is being taken care of the way it is.

    Just my .02
    Well... I can agree with that. I don't expect lots of PD regulars to migrate to the Politics board. Especially as posters. That doesn't mean that some won't lurk. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a Politics forum here. It's a nice diversion and many times educational outside of the world of basketball. But expecting it to operate like the sports forums and entertainment forums is a bit naive. It is a different animal and should be treated as such. IMHO it requires a thicker skin.

    But it would appear I am in the minority. And this isn't the public's forum, it has an owner(s). Therefore the golden rule applies... He who has the gold rules.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Politics should be about politics. When people resort to personal attacks then it crosses the line. Just because you disagree with something, or misunderstand what someone is saying, doesn't give the other side the right to belittle you, or your right to hold that opinion. It crossed that line a LONG time ago.

    I think that's the only change that needs to be made. If you don't want to read the articles posted, don't read them. It's really not that hard to scroll past, see what others are saying about it, and get the general jist of them.

    The maturity level needs to step up, and IMO that's all.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Politics should be about politics. When people resort to personal attacks then it crosses the line. Just because you disagree with something, or misunderstand what someone is saying, doesn't give the other side the right to belittle you, or your right to hold that opinion. It crossed that line a LONG time ago.

    I think that's the only change that needs to be made. If you don't want to read the articles posted, don't read them. It's really not that hard to scroll past, see what others are saying about it, and get the general jist of them.

    The maturity level needs to step up, and IMO that's all.
    I agree that true personal attacks (not jabs made in jest (or good natured sarcasm), of course) can go away.

    I pretty much have to agree with what Since86 just said. That's why I said you're fixing what isn't broken.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I agree that true personal attacks (not jabs made in jest (or good natured sarcasm), of course) can go away.

    I pretty much have to agree with what Since86 just said. That's why I said you're fixing what isn't broken.

    -Bball
    Bball, when people stop participating in the debates altogether there's a problem that needs fixed. When someone posts an article, and someone attempts to share their opinion, that opinion is frequently ridiculed by the original poster and some of those that agree with them and you know it. You're right, people do expect debates. What they don't expect is to have their opinions belittled and ridiculed and have it CALLED debate. Nobody "agrees to disagree" as you say. There is ZERO respect for alternate opinions here. After a while it's just not worth it anymore. That's what the admins are trying to fix. If it goes on the way it is, why even have the politics forum? It's supposed to be for EVERYONE, not just those with "thick skin" and Able could have just shut it down to save the bandwidth. But instead he's giving it a chance to fix itself, and I for one appreciate it very much. Your comment about "he who has the gold rules" was completely uncalled for in my opinion. Of course maybe it was a good natured jab and is exempt from what Able and the admins are trying to fix here. Even so, it's your opinion and I respect that. It's just not one I happen to share, for the reasons outlined above.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    I don't ever remember the politics board being anything other than contentious. I posted here fairly regularly in 2004 and as a voter for John Kerry was beaten up verbally many a day.

    Maybe things got less passionate after the election in 2005 and that is the basis some are using for comparison. But it's election time again - an election that will very soon be over.

    I definitely side with Bball's comments about this and would love to hear the complaints of those who have complaints.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Not only that, but one of the concerns was that the PD regulars (from other boards) are staying away but there are some people, who may be very, very knowledgeable on politics, that seem to concentrate all their posting efforts over here. We're glad you're here and lurking in the other forums, presumably you're here because you're a Pacers/ NBA fan in the first place, and we don't want you to go away. But the Politics board is a side show here, not the main event. We want everyone to feel comfortable participating in the Pacers board and all the other boards, too.

    Clearly the insults and "talking down" have to stop.

    The complaints we've recieved have nothing to do with content and everything to do with delivery... insults that have gone far beyond "good natured jabs"... People from the right have complained about ... certain posters from the right, and people from the left have complained about ... certain posters from the left.

    Because the admins saw many of the same things, we'd effectively put the entire politics board on "ignore" since no one was willing to dig through all the nonsense. That has come to an end. This is no longer the wild west.

    We want PD members to discuss what *they* think. There's a time and place to resort to someone who's published a comment that you think does a better job of articulating your thoughts than you might do on your own.

    But the "war of articles", the partisan monologues, the persistent belittling and insults... those are indeed a problem and they need to stop.

    This is not a place where someone should feel the need to convince everyone "their point of view is right, and everyone else is wrong." This is a place to DISCUSS politics. Remember, the preacher on the corner here in Times Square is not DISCUSSING religion. That's what we're talking about.

    By and large, that's what the PD community thinks of the politics board.

    If we can't clean it up, or if the stuff we've seen here starts to spill into the other boards, we may have to do something more drastic.

    There's much more to this than "needing thicker skin."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Your comment about "he who has the gold rules" was completely uncalled for in my opinion. Of course maybe it was a good natured jab and is exempt from what Able and the admins are trying to fix here. Even so, it's your opinion and I respect that. It's just not one I happen to share, for the reasons outlined above.
    You may be looking for more than was meant with the comment. It simply means this forum has an owner (or owners as the case may be) and just because I disagree with something, ultimately the owner gets to do as they see fit. It's not my call (or anyone else's).

    I was going to say that I'd said all on the main topic that I could say but after reading Jay's followup I'm curious why some people are not using the ignore feature to help them sort thru the topics and comments and create discussions without participation of those they feel are insulting them?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    I tend to wade in the political forum during the offseason and/or around election time. But I guess I agree with Bball in this discussion, but the mods need to do what they need to do, so I'm fine either way. I guess I've never complained to a mod before, that is just not my style of doing things.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Let me begin to clarify a few things that seemingly have missed the eye of the attentive readers:

    1: This was not written on behalf of myself, this was a statement of TPTB on PD, meaning to consensus of the admins, in fact it was discussed as is and posted (if I'm correct in my math) more then 24 hours after it was made public to the admins and only written after a loooooong discussion.

    2: I state (I think very) clearly that as it is politics, we expect the temperature to be above the national average, meaning we expect a more heated discussion, polarization is nothing new, therefore exceptions can and will be made.

    3: It is not the exceptions, it is that what de-facto SHOULD be an exception has become rule, which in turn in any civilized community is unacceptable.

    4: Personal insults, extreem polarization, extreme articles, they are not a ground for discussion but a breeding ground for war.

    5: "heated discussion" should and could be a civilized matter, there is no need to belittle people or call them names, if being a jerk would win a debate then how different the world would look.

    6: "Manners" and "Civilized" (behaviour) can most certainly be grounds on which a debate can be held, no matter how far apart sides are.

    7: I have written before that there are "specific" laws upon which we allow articles posted on Pacers Digest, because they "protect" us in the use, however, the more we use from an article, the more it must be "news" and it should most certainly not contain no further comment, the reason is as simple as why the rain falls, Intellectual Property Laws and "Freedom of News Gathering" can conflict, of which conflict we thrive and of which we feed on the "main" board.

    This is a "basketball" related board, dealing mainly with the Pacers, henceforth the posting of an article about that team, without comment but as a "I read this, I think this" is "permissable" under the law.

    Posting a political column, even though the specific forum is called "politics" is not for a plethora of reasons.

    I do not want to be involved in nasty grams from the IP community or their *(lawyer) representatives because someone wants "the program" to be read and spread.

    Therefore in the case of the politics board, you can use "parts" of an article that is deemed an op-ed, provoding htat you yourself state why you are posting it, what point you think is important and why you agree (or disagree).

    Finally (and this is for bball) if you are interested in the debate, then fight it yourself instead of quoting whole articles, and always remember, there are posters here from all over the world, many from democracies many hundreds of years older then the USA, many from what you might consider "opressed" states or formerly opressed states.
    All these people have been tought a history that in many cases differs from yours, neither is perhaps the correct one, but an open debate is what helps understand each other.
    Bickering, calling someone stupid, foreigner or idiot or heck, even worse is NOT the right way to obtain any goal.

    Yes the politics board has "wider margins" but that does not mean that we want to loose what PD stands for in the sense of "class".

    Let us not emulate some players on our favorite team, but just try to talkthe way we want without being an arse about it, let's make sure we the fans at least have the class always associated with our team
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Finally (and this is for bball) if you are interested in the debate, then fight it yourself instead of quoting whole articles, and always remember, there are posters here from all over the world, many from democracies many hundreds of years older then the USA, many from what you might consider "opressed" states or formerly opressed states.
    All these people have been tought a history that in many cases differs from yours, neither is perhaps the correct one, but an open debate is what helps understand each other.
    Bickering, calling someone stupid, foreigner or idiot or heck, even worse is NOT the right way to obtain any goal.

    Yes the politics board has "wider margins" but that does not mean that we want to loose what PD stands for in the sense of "class".

    Let us not emulate some players on our favorite team, but just try to talkthe way we want without being an arse about it, let's make sure we the fans at least have the class always associated with our team
    Not sure why that was specifically directed at me...

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I was going to say that I'd said all on the main topic that I could say but after reading Jay's followup I'm curious why some people are not using the ignore feature to help them sort thru the topics and comments and create discussions without participation of those they feel are insulting them?

    -Bball

    You see, that's the main point of this change. I shouldn't be required to do anything other than contribute to enjoy this board. There should be enough respect, maturity, and restraint on behalf of the regulars here to avoid the use of the ignore list. If another poster can't exercise the ability to discourse with civility, why is it my problem to fix? It should be theirs. With that in mind, it's obvious to a lot of folks here that the posters in question are not interested in self-restraint or it would have happened a long time ago. Apparently the admins felt it was time to step in and do it for them.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    I've been a "contributing" member of the politics forum for a while but recently have lost taste for it.

    I suppose I have to ask my self if I am part of the problem. I certainly have let the culture of the board get under my skin, and I have definitly fought back on occasion. I don't know if I'll return to full-bore posting, but I promise to re-double my efforts to raise the level of quality of my contributions, when it happens.
    ďSuccess is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.Ē - Winston Churchill

    ďIf you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.Ē - Catherine Aird

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    I've been publicly pretty silent on the issue, but I want it known that I discussed this with the others privately and I 100% endorse what Abel and Jay are saying.

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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    The big thing for me is the over-posting of articles...
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    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    Quote Originally Posted by naturallystoned View Post
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    The big thing for me is the over-posting of articles...
    Right. That was an important part of our off-line discussions. We want this board to be about discussion, not a parade of political articles. If that's your thing, great... go to PoliticsDigest. This is, first and foremost, a basketball forum and this is supposed to be a "safe" place for the members of the community to discuss items that are too "explosive" for the basketball board.

    Lobbing a bunch of "grenades", disguised as political commentary and articles, is not condusive to discussion. Besides, RoboHicks could do that for us...

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25

    Default Re: To all posters on the "Politics Board" (IMPORTANT)

    There have been many statments about the decline of this forum.

    There have been too many articles posted re-hashing an on-going discussion. Regardless of whether or not those articles are found offensive they do clutter up the board.

    I had come to accept the name calling to come with the territory but am glad to see it being regulated the same as the rest of the forum.

    Those things in particular had made parts of this forum tiresome.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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