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Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

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  • #1

    Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

    The paragraph that I put in bold is great, just great



    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/notebook_071016.html



    PACERS HOST MEMPHIS WEDNESDAY
    Offense in rhythm, defense needs work


    By Conrad Brunner | Oct. 16, 2007
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Caught in the Web archive
    Pacers Preseason Central

    The 3-0 record is a nice perk, nothing more.
    Progress in the first preseason under Jim O'Brien isn't measured with wins and losses. Even using the coach's exacting standards, however, the Pacers are coming along nicely.

    "Even though 3-0 is good -- it's better than being 0-3 -- we're objective," O'Brien said. "Forget about the record, where are we in our preparation for the regular season? From that standpoint, if you just forget they're keeping score and just evaluate what you see, frankly, that's more important than the record. But it's nice to be 3-0 and it's nice to put points on the board and give our fans a chance to see an offense I think is very entertaining; we run, we shoot, we drive, we pass, we cut. We just have to get our defense together. We're making strides. It's just not as far along as we'd like it to be."

    Heading into three games in four nights, beginning Wednesday against Memphis in Conseco Fieldhouse, the Pacers have offered up plenty of optimism about the potential productivity of the more free-flowing offensive system. They're averaging 105.0 points and averaging 21.3 attempts from the 3-point line (while making 39.1 percent).

    "We've done some very positive things offensively," O'Brien said. "For the majority of the game, we're pushing the basketball and we've been very unselfish at seeing the open man."

    Defensively, however, O'Brien sees much more work to be done. It's not necessarily reflected in the statistics: opponents are averaging 95.7 points and shooting 41.1 percent. It has been more a matter of lapses leading to either open shots or playmaking opportunities. Because the Pacers don't have many strong individual defenders, the scheme is built on the development of a cohesive collective. The necessary symbiosis has yet to develop.

    "We want to see our team all play as one unit," O'Brien said. "The type of defense we have, if one person breaks the scheme or one person breaks rotation, the whole defense collapses. Our defense is predicated on all five guys on the court acting like the five fingers on a hand. If one moves, the others have to move with it in perfect formation. That shuts down the paint and it also gives you the opportunity to rotate to weak-side 3-point shooters. That takes months of work but I think we need to start seeing a little bit more improvement in that area in the preseason so we're ready for that first game."

    Because of the compressed schedule – the Pacers host Minnesota Friday, then travel to Chicago Saturday – O'Brien said changes would be required both in the playing rotation and the practice schedule.

    "We have to make adjustments in a number of ways, number one in how long our practices are and the intensity of our practices to make sure we don't leave our legs on the practice floor – although, in October, our team knows that practices are just as important to us as games," he said. "Because it is preseason, of the guys that are starting, we might give one guy per game off. …

    "Other guys have to be able to step up and compete at the highest level. It's a real good way of seeing what units work when you don't have maybe your top five players on the court."



    DIOGU FINDING COMFORT ZONE IN OFFENSE

    After struggling in the first two preseason games, Ike Diogu found a rhythm in Monday's 117-104 victory in New Orleans, scoring 19 points on 7-of-7 shooting. In the first two games, he totaled 14 points on 4-of-15 shooting.

    "This offense is based on a lot of movement so you don't really have the pleasure of sliding from block to block; it's constant movement," Diogu said. "It just took a little bit longer to get used to."

    O'Brien's system requires post players to find the open man and clear the lane if they don't have a one-on-one situation. It's not just a matter of moving to the opposite block, re-posting and calling for the ball anymore.

    "Everybody talked about Jermaine (O'Neal) and how it was important to surround him with 3-point shooters to keep the middle open so he could operate and hurt other teams in the low post. Well, the same goes for Ike," said O'Brien. "He's a very good low-post presence for us. When he's on the court, we want to make sure, as in the case of Jermaine, that the court is spaced so that Ike can operate one-on-one down there.

    "When he is one-on-one he can be extremely effective because he's got polished low-post moves. The difficulty is when people collapse on him, he's got to become proficient at seeing the open man on the perimeter and then re-establishing his post-up so that the second time it comes into the paint, he's one-on-one."

    Because of O'Neal's presence, Diogu knows post-up plays will be one of the staples of the offense, so he isn't concerned about finding opportunities. It's a matter of exploiting them.

    "(O'Neal) can go inside and outside but you know he does most of his damage on the low block, so I definitely know there's going to be post-up plays," Diogu said. "That's the way I look at it: post-up plays are going to be there, so when they call my number I'll just try to produce."



    NOTEWORTHY …

    After sitting out Monday's game with a bruised knee, Marquis Daniels was back at practice and will play against Memphis.
    Jamaal Tinsley missed Tuesday's practice to attend the funeral of a close friend but is expected to rejoin the team for Wednesday's game.
    On the occasion of the Pacers' first trip back to his hometown of New Orleans since he joined the team in 1995, Danny Granger had his Grace King High School jersey No. 33 retired in a ceremony Monday afternoon. The Pacers played the Hornets in Oklahoma City each of the past two seasons.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  • #2
    Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

    I agree. It goes in line with a lot of the areas I was bringing up for discussion in the "Refreshed Granger" thread
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

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    • #3
      Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

      Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
      The 3-0 record is a nice perk, nothing more.
      Hater.
      This space for rent.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

        I can't believe Danny's been on the team since 1995.
        “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

        “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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        • #5
          Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

          Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
          I can't believe Danny's been on the team since 1995.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

            Originally posted by Anthem View Post
            Hater.
            This is the darkest timeline.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

              O'Brien not happy with the defense
              Remember when people piled on me for being "negative" when I said the defense was crap so far and that there was no way JOB could be happy with the results?

              So maybe now some of you see that I'm just being my normal analytical self rather than intentionally negative. The fact is that the situation isn't that great, thus a person predisposed to just calling it like it is for better or worse isn't going to be saying a lot of positive things.

              I'm not enjoying that they might be true you know, just saying what I'm seeing.


              My guess is that right now his 2 biggest problems have been all sorts of defensive awareness lapses by nearly everyone except JO, and Danny's dreadful offense outside of the 3pt shot. Danny is really pressing and forcing some ugly shots in traffic, the one no-no in JOB's system.

              I also said in my "negative" Seattle post-game that the team has been moving the ball around on the offensive end. Not so much early shots, I still don't think that's as true as some feel, but they are better about keeping the ball moving around looking for a shot, and not just around the arc but peeking inside and out on both passes and drives.


              There is just no way I would have thought that the offensive game would be so far ahead of the defensive game given the players and coaches involved. Not that Troy, Dun, Tins, etc are great defenders, but they also didn't exactly run a tight ship of offense last year (last in FG%, much better in their defensive ratings).

              When Seattle took that made shot out of bounds and got a dunk at the other end in literally 2 seconds, I bet Harter and JOB were having a fit internally.


              I also agree with JOB that while it's early, it's also been pretty sloppy. I thought they'd be more on track by this point too.


              Because the Pacers don't have many strong individual defenders, the scheme is built on the development of a cohesive collective. The necessary symbiosis has yet to develop.
              Who knew, JOB and I ride together in the Negative Nancy mobile. Do I hear Mal sending off a scathing letter to Pacers.com to be delivered to JOB's desk letting him know how unappreciated his crap attitude is?
              Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 10-17-2007, 01:02 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                "When he is one-on-one he can be extremely effective because he's got polished low-post moves. The difficulty is when people collapse on him, he's got to become proficient at seeing the open man on the perimeter and then re-establishing his post-up so that the second time it comes into the paint, he's one-on-one."
                Nearly identical to my analysis of Ike's game. Great post player, great at getting post position, and dreadful at passing out of doubles. Sounds like he better resolve that issue or he'll get the "Saras under Rick" treatment from JOB.

                Because of O'Neal's presence, Diogu knows post-up plays will be one of the staples of the offense, so he isn't concerned about finding opportunities. It's a matter of exploiting them.
                Also note that as I pointed out with the Seattle game, JOB does like to work the post and did so with JO plenty. He's just more about restablishing better as well as maintaining quality passing options for the post player rather than letting guys get lazy and spectate. That's what's kept JO's assists down the last few years more than anything. Guys don't come to the rim, they don't cut off each other on the weakside. They just stood and waited for a 3.

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                • #9
                  Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                  Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                  That's what's kept JO's assists down the last few years more than anything. Guys don't come to the rim, they don't cut off each other on the weakside. They just stood and waited for a 3.
                  Chicken or the egg... which comes first?

                  Did the players stand around and quit cutting and moving because of JO's slow decisions with the ball, or were the guys not giving JO good options to pass to?

                  This is one element of the Pacer progress that won't necessarily be noted in JO's assist numbers but in simply the overall effectiveness of the offense and EVERYONE's FG%. If the passes come in the flow of the offense then I think our outside shooting will improve as we keep defenses off balance. With the ball-sharing and quick (smart) decisions, JO should find many times he doesn't get an assist- he many times will get the ball back and finds himself in better position for a shot at the rim.

                  But if he holds the ball and lets the defense set and swarm, then he's effectively made the whole team easier to defend. The shot clock will keep ticking. His own shot will be tougher. Any passes he makes will come later in the shot clock (little chance of repositioning on his part let alone seeing the ball come back) and the pass will be more of a hot potato pass that the receiver will have to put up regardless of anything at that point. ...And I don't think we have historically had good spotup shooters to make that work. We've had people who were more effective coming off of screens and taking the shot in the flow of the offense. But then again, there aren't that many spotup shooters out there to make that type of thing work anyway.

                  And all that means that JO doesn't need to make the pass that leads to a shot... He should be more concerned with keeping the offense flowing and the defense off balance and in motion. I'd be perfectly happy to see his pass be the pass that leads to an assist for another player.

                  I like seeing OBrien 'not satisfied' and pressing for better defense and offense.

                  -Bball
                  Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                  ------

                  "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                  -John Wooden

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    Remember when people piled on me for being "negative" when I said the defense was crap so far and that there was no way JOB could be happy with the results?

                    So maybe now some of you see that I'm just being my normal analytical self rather than intentionally negative. The fact is that the situation isn't that great, thus a person predisposed to just calling it like it is for better or worse isn't going to be saying a lot of positive things.

                    I'm not enjoying that they might be true you know, just saying what I'm seeing.


                    My guess is that right now his 2 biggest problems have been all sorts of defensive awareness lapses by nearly everyone except JO, and Danny's dreadful offense outside of the 3pt shot. Danny is really pressing and forcing some ugly shots in traffic, the one no-no in JOB's system.

                    I also said in my "negative" Seattle post-game that the team has been moving the ball around on the offensive end. Not so much early shots, I still don't think that's as true as some feel, but they are better about keeping the ball moving around looking for a shot, and not just around the arc but peeking inside and out on both passes and drives.


                    There is just no way I would have thought that the offensive game would be so far ahead of the defensive game given the players and coaches involved. Not that Troy, Dun, Tins, etc are great defenders, but they also didn't exactly run a tight ship of offense last year (last in FG%, much better in their defensive ratings).

                    When Seattle took that made shot out of bounds and got a dunk at the other end in literally 2 seconds, I bet Harter and JOB were having a fit internally.


                    I also agree with JOB that while it's early, it's also been pretty sloppy. I thought they'd be more on track by this point too.



                    Who knew, JOB and I ride together in the Negative Nancy mobile. Do I hear Mal sending off a scathing letter to Pacers.com to be delivered to JOB's desk letting him know how unappreciated his crap attitude is?
                    A person who quotes every negative quote possible while ignoring the positives is quite negative.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                      Seth, my memory of O'Brien and his quotes while he was coaching the Celtics and Sixers tells me that O'Brien will never be satisfied with the defense - he wants perfection and he can never attain that - so I expect him to say he's not happy with the defense all season long - no matter how good it may be.


                      What I saw Saturday night had me very happy not because the defense was great and certainly not because there weren't mental mistakes - but I was happy about the defense because I could see the start of something realy good, the start of a team concept, the start of a system of play and the start of a excellent team defensive approach - that is why I was happy.
                      Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-17-2007, 07:52 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                        I can't think of any coach who realistically should be happy with their defense until they've won a championship.

                        The closest comparison I can make is similar to that of Indiana Hoosiers basketball at the end of last season, the first under Kelvin Sampson compared to the final season under Mike Davis. The team left the tournament in the 2nd round, no better than the previous year under Mike Davis and finished the season 22-10, compared to the 21-12 in Davis' final season. However, despite those two things being so similar, the vast majority of the people who are Indiana University basketball fans felt much better about the team last season than they did the season before and felt much better about the future of the team than they did the season before (this of course being stated before the recent recruiting issues came up...).

                        By the end of this year, this team will be playing defense as well as the NBA league rules allow them to play. It may not rival the greatest defenses of all time, but that comparison cannot be made with all of the new defensive rules.
                        That's one of the toughest parts of comparing modern day defense to defense that we know from the past.
                        Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

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                        • #13
                          Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                          Like I pointed out before, I was right...wasn't I? It is... I....and only... I... that pointed out these very things that only I could've noticed, and I was right.... wasn't I?

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Pacers.com: O'Brien not happy with the defense

                            If a coach were to say the defense was great and where it should be then the opposing team scored 0 points and turned the ball over all the time.

                            Is there room for improvement......Yes

                            Is the defense horrible at times.....Yes

                            Is it going to wreck the season......No

                            Should we be excited about the effort......Yess

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