This thread is just stupid. Why bother argue? Pats will believe what they want. Who cares, honestly?
This thread is just stupid. Why bother argue? Pats will believe what they want. Who cares, honestly?
Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.
I think I will just give up.
You are all right, the Pats are demons, hold nightly Satan-worshipping sessions where they braid their tails and watch kiddie porn. They are evil incarnate and without cheating and paying off refs would go 0-16. They deserve no respect and no credit for the past 7 years, it's all luck, cheating, and corruption.
Miraculously, though, if one of the Pats players becomes a Colt (like AV), his tail then falls off, he grows a halo, and he bakes cookies for senior citizens while wearing his Eagle Scout uniform.
I understand now.
I'll throw a bone: I'll use the Colts logo as my avatar for a month on these forums if they win Nov.4, provided that if the Pats win, then Indy would use a Patriot logo avatar for one month. Fair enough?
Super Bowl XLI Champions
2000 Eastern Conference Champions
Actually, that sounds intriguing. Anyone willing to do the same for me? If the Colts win on Nov 4th, you can choose out any avatar picture you want involving the Colts or Pats and I will put it up for a couple months. If I win, I get to choose any picture I want and you have to put it up for a month or two.
As far as the cameragate being limited to one game, you do know the same exact guy was booted from a game last year because of the same exact thing don't you? That came out early on in the whole thing.
Also, Peter King is a NE guy, born and raised, and he even says that the NFL is sweeping it under the rug because it goes back years and the league doesn't want a scandal fallout.
But it's okay, keep your head buried in the sand. I'm sure it's nice and cozy.
If the Pats were taping signals years ago to get play calls and relaying it to the offense, would you not think that many of the players on the offense would know about it? Since there has been turnover of every position on offense except for a lineman or two, wouldn't you think that one of them wouldn't mind talking to the media and ratting the Pats out? A Deion Branch, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Jermaine Wiggins, Antawn Smith, Corey Dillon-- wouldn't one of those guys chose to be a "Jose Canseco" and make a name for himself by spilling the beans, especially if they hold some bitterness about being cut or resigned below what they thought they deserved?
Far from ratting them out, the story from guys like Branch is
Hey, first I ever heard about that stuff... nothing like that got to me when I was there
and we are talking about a guy that was the #1 wide receiver on the team.
It's hard to prove that there was not a bogeyman under the bed. But nobody saw the bogeyman, and that includes people who spent a lot of time in there.
But if it makes you feel better to fantasize about ways to demonize your rival, I guess it's your perogative.
I tend to think of Pats-Colts games as matchups of 2 teams with lots of very highly skilled players and coaches, rather than a struggle of good vs. evil, and I expect the outcome to be based upon what team plays better, rather than blaming an unfavorable outcome for my team upon evil-doing by the opposition or "fixed" officiating.
Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 10-17-2007 at 03:45 PM.
I had no reason to doubt what you said that Peter King wrote. I was curious though. In looking over King's columns which are all archived at si.com, I don't find any criticism of the NFL's handing of the situation or any hint that King thinks anything is being swept under the rug. The only criticism King seems to have is Belichick's lousy apology, and later the Cowboys coach saying King misquoted him about saying there was a black mark on the Pats record.
You can peruse the King archive yourself:
Just curious, which column leads you to believe the NFL is striving to coverup a conspiracy to win super bowls by cheating?
Ironically it was in the one that has since been taken down.
Where he criticizes Goodell.
But you're still failing to recognize the same exact NE employee who was caught for filming was kicked out of a game last year. It's a known thing. You think it's coincidence that an organization coached by Mangini (sp?) caught them?
They, NE, were also specifically targeted in a league wide notice about such actions.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.
That's from the same article, just in a side column.NEW YORK -- A story in Wednesday's New York Daily News claims that Jets coach Eric Mangini, a former New England assistant under Bill Belichick, came armed with keen knowledge of the team's surveillance methods -- and finally decided to act.
"[The Jets] knew they did it," the Daily News wrote, citing a person with knowledge of the situation, who sent the newspaper an e-mail. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be [ticked] at Eric. He kissed and told."
Sunday's game was the fifth time Mangini has coached against Belichick since joining the Jets.
-- ESPN.com news services
I'm just not seeing it, but rather I see praise for Goodall for delivering a "stern warning to all teams"
OK I see where you think it's the one taken down-- my bad. The NFL must have hovered over Kings house with their black helicopters and erased that column. Or maybe King decided he hadn't gotten it right?
Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 10-17-2007 at 05:33 PM.
I haven't got time to read it (and probably won't since I imagine I already did a long time ago, and also the fact that this thread has gone to Hell), but here's the cached version of that article: http://188.8.131.52/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a
You should be able to read it now.
You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?
I remember reading that. Nowhere in the article does he say anything to the effect that "the NFL is sweeping it under the rug because it goes back years and the league doesn't want a scandal fallout."
It merely says BB should have been suspended along with the fine and draft pick. Nothing at all anywhere remotely implying that the NFL sweeping anything under the rug.
I think the Patriots and Bill Belichick got off lucky.
What Roger Goodell did in penalizing Belichick was significant, but he did not ban Belichick from coaching for even a week for repeatedly cheating -- after being warned 12 months ago to not videotape other teams' coaches signaling in plays from the sidelines.
When Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard.
Belichick was found guilty by Judge Goodell of "a calculated and deliberate attempt'' to evade the spirit and letter of the NFL rules. You tell me: Finding one of the coaching giants of the game guilty of cheating, then fining him 12.5 percent of his salary, taking away one of his five first-day draft choices next April (assuming New England makes the playoffs) and not suspending him ... is that holding this coach to a higher standard?
Now, about Belichick's reaction. An odd mix of mea culpa with too much justification for the cheating, I thought. To me, there's something almost 1972-Nixonian about what Belichick did; and just before midnight Thursday, a longtime NFL employee echoed that to me. "Most of the people I've talked to this week have been mystified by this, like I am,'' this club official said. "It's like, Why did Nixon need Watergate? He was going to win the '72 election in a landslide anyway. And why does this guy with such a great team need to be doing penny-ante stuff against the rules anyway?''
Particularly in New York. How brazen, how cocky, how untouchable, how arrogant must he have thought of himself. Coaching against a man who knew all his tricks -- former Pats aide Eric Mangini -- who KNEW to be looking for the video spy, Belichick was almost asking to get caught.
As for Belichick's teflon reaction, remember the very well-publicized warning all teams got last September from the league. "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game," said the warning from league vice president Ray Anderson. In the league's rule book, on page 105, the video ban is as clear as day. "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game,'' the rules state.
Belichick said in his Thursday night statement: "Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.''
You know what that is? It's a classic deflection by Belichick. Instead of simply admitting he broke the rules and saying he deserves to be censured, he throws the changeup and tries to smokescreen us. The "interpretation'' of the rule was in error. That's an insult to Goodell, and to every fan who loves either the Patriots, this game or both.
Goodell slapped Belichick hard, but not hard enough. A suspension should have accompanied the loss of the top draft choice.
Come on, Peter King is an important writer, covering the country's most popular sport for CNN, the #1 media group in the world. When he breaks a story or offers an opinion, it is big news. He wrote the relatively tame quote
from Wade Phillips:
Of course this story was picked by by ESPN, Fox News, ABC News, even the NFL network. It was a big story.He said the league’s sanctioning the Patriots for cheating “was a black mark on their success … not that I bet they gained much from it.” He praised the Patriots and thought they deserved all the credit for winning the three Super Bowls.
Now we are to believe that Peter King also wrote in some mystery article that the NFL is sweeping the Patriots taping scandal under the rug because it goes back years and the league doesn't want a scandal fallout.
Amazingly, nobody picked up on that story, which I would think would be a whole lot bigger story than the Wade Phillips comments. CNN's main football writer charges the NFL is sweeping a scanal under the rug. That would have gotten about as much airplay as Don Imus's remarks about the Rutger's women's team.
The inevitable conclusion is that somebody is either making stuff up or grossly exaggerating and hearing words that he wants to hear or read, when no such words are on the page anywhere.
Sorry to belabor this point, but I don't think it unfair of me to ask for documentation for such a serious charge as attributing a comment to Peter King that "the NFL is sweeping it under the rug because it goes back years and the league doesn't want a scandal fallout"
I've looked for evidence of Peter King writing that and it is not there, but of course we all know that.
Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 10-17-2007 at 10:46 PM.
Like I said earlier, I don't blame you guys for your irrational hatred of the Patriots, just be willing to admit it.
For instance, if I was standing on a corner with Al Davis, would I push him in front of a bus? There's a chance I would. That's irrational hatred for a man I don't even know, but there it is, and I own it. :P
I completely understand where you guys are coming from, too! Colts fans in regards to the Patriots have been a lot like Pacers fans in regard to the Pistons (no rivalry till you win something). I think Colts fans felt like they finally got over the hump, got the monkey off their back, slayed the dragon, whatever. And then New England just reloads and comes back stronger than ever. I get it, I really do. Just make an attempt to see it for what it is, that's all I ask.
I know I said I'm done w/ this thread, but I just want to say this to Eindar: I, personally, do not hate the Pats, let alone irrationally hate them. I don't think most Colts fans irrationally hate them, either. We enjoy the rivalry, sure, but when it comes to looking at the Pats team, I'm not all of sudden flooded with some weird surge of hate. They're just another team, in that sense. Why would Colts fan hate them? We've got our SB. Don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty damn content.
I'm not ready to say that the Pat's prior accomplishments are tainted, but I'm also not ready to think that the Pats are as squeaky-clean as the Pats fans here would like you to think. I think this is pretty reasonable. I mean, the team got caught cheating, and it was made clear to us that they were repeat offender. To me, the ones being irrational are the guys that don't expect anyone to be suspicious of the Pats' integrity. IMHO, if you get caught cheating, you earn the whole * rip. I'd except the same stuff if the Colts got caught cheating--I'd feel like I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if people wanted to say stuff like Colts*.
In a way, this stuff is like the situation with the brawl: us Pacer fans (for a while) wanted the rest of the league to not pidgeon-hole us as some kind of evil, despicable team (since for a long time we were known as a really classy club), but the fact remained that our players knocked out a ton of spectators--that earns you a certain amount of derision, and there's a point where you just gotta accept it and try to move on... although I know this comparison doesn't hold up completely, so don't waste your time tearing it to shreds or something. I was just looking for some common ground.
Anyway, that's my official Peace Out post. I hope we kill the Jaggies.
You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?
Point taken, SIG.
I've heard several times that this isn't really contained to the Patriots, that teams often bend/break rules to try to get an advantage, including videotaping signals. Perhaps the NFL office didn't do anything severe because if they did anything severe to the Patriots, they'd have to do something severe to other teams. I have no concrete evidence that wrongdoing has been done by other teams, just suggestions in articles.
Having said that, I do know that cheating isn't just for the Patriots. In 1997 during a playoff game against the Chiefs, the Broncos offensive line had to go get some sort of slippery substance wiped off their jerseys. This is blatant cheating in a "win or go home" game, and they weren't even penalized the 15 yards they were supposed to have.
Also, this incident occurred a couple years after I watched a TV special on how to "cheat" when playing football. One way was to use double-sided tape on your pads so your jersey couldn't be grabbed, and another method was....spraying Pam on your jersey to make it slippery so the other team couldn't grab you as well.
All I'm saying is that cheating is a big part of professional sports. In this case, I don't even think it should be illegal. If you don't want the other team to know what you're doing, hide it better. I feel the same way about stealing signs in baseball. I'm against using a foreign substance like, say, pine tar, to make your pitches perform better, or spraying yourself down with non-stick cooking spray so a defensive lineman can't get a good grip on you to get you out of the way, but, to me, stealing signs and calls is just playing smart.
A couple of weeks after the Patriots Spygate incident, Jimmy Johnson said on WFAN radio that he stole signals when he was coaching. He had a camera crew Video taping the signal caller in the press box. I guess that great Cowboys team from the 90's are a bunch of cheaters as well.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...924/index.htmlWhen the Jets spotted a Patriots on-field video assistant filming their coaching signals during a Sept. 9 game at the Meadowlands, it set into motion a passion play that could have starred another North Jersey operator, Tony Soprano. By exposing the dirty secret of his former boss, Pats coach Bill Belichick, Jets coach Eric Mangini broke a long-held code that NFL coaches live by: Don't go against the family. "If he wasn't before, Mangini's dead to Belichick now," says one head coach. "What Mangini did is a disgrace. He wouldn't be a coach in this league without Bill, and this is how he repays him."
Commissioner Roger Goodell ruled swiftly when he found out that New England had taped defensive hand signals. He fined Belichick $500,000 and the team $250,000 and stripped the club of a high-round 2008 draft pick. It's widely believed that New England has stolen signals in this manner for years, but officials from various clubs acknowledge that the Pats are not the only team that does it. Last week's revelation doesn't mean the New England dynasty is a fraud, but it does take some shine off those three Super Bowl wins.
It may seem absurd to think that if Belichick was blatantly violating an NFL rule -- one reenforced by two NFL memos in the last year -- the Jets should have ignored it. But last year the Lions and the Packers caught the Patriots taping and simply told them to stop without informing the league. Unlike New York, they followed the coaching fraternity's antisnitching code.
Again, it's not an isolated incident. They continued to do it even when caught by other teams, and after the league sent league wide memos.
As for the other teams suspected, it's just as wrong. I'll be the first person to stand up and be pissed off if the Colts were ever doing anything like this.
My least favorite argument to come out of the Patriots scandal is the "cheating is bad, but everyone does it" defense.
Would Tony Dungy tape signals? Cut opposing coaches mics? Have players fake injuries?
Or at least, that's what you would like to believe. I'm not as homicidally competitive as most professional athletes/coaches, and I'd do all of the above if it gave me an edge and it was a reasonable risk.
What year was it that the Colts were accused of piping in noise on the visitor's sideline? See, true or not, allegations of cheating as easy to find.
Regardless, I view this stuff as gamesmanship, not cheating. This is the same reason the Boston Garden's visitor's locker room used to be one of the nastiest places in the entire buildiing. It made it harder for the visiting team to focus on winning the game and preparing properly. Is that cheating, too?
Ty Cobb is in the hall of fame, and not only is he my personal Jesus, he's obviously got a reputation as being one of the dirtiest players and biggest rule-breakers to ever play. But, he's still in the Hall.
I believe with all my heart that Tony Dungy wouldn't cheat. Can I guarantee it? Of course not, people do awful things. But if there has ever been a more decent person who coached in the NFL I've not heard of him.
I don't think Cobb should be in the Hall of Fame. I actually disagree with how we use Hall of Fames and the voting process that populates them, but that's another argument.
And it's ridiculous to compare the Colts piping in crowd noise, a dirty rumor that has never been substantiated by anything other than whispers, with what was a blatant abuse of NFL rules.