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Thread: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Also, I'm going to go ahead and say that Diener is clearly better than Sarunas. Better shooter, better ball-handler, better attitude, and frankly, better defense.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Yep, sure looks like it in this game (although I'm also very happy to hear Sarunas havin a great game against the Spurs himself).
    Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I'm not impressed with a 10 point victory over a team as bad as the Seattle Supersonics. I haven't been impressed with Granger or Williams either, Shawne has a long ways to go before I even consider him an average NBA player. I do, however, think Marquis Daniels can have a breakout season if he remains healthy for once. Possibly even our #2 scorer.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I just didn't see the great offense or snappy ball movement you guys are talking about, nor did I see the improved team defense.




















    But that is because I wasn't able to see the game so thanks for the report UB and the rest of ya! It sounds promising.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Also, I'm going to go ahead and say that Diener is clearly better than Sarunas. Better shooter, better ball-handler, better attitude, and frankly, better defense.
    I don't think there was ever a question of whether Diener would be a better player than Runi for us, it was just a matter of how good he would be.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    There were periods of time when the passing and player movement seemed very fluid. Remarkably different than last year.

    There were other periods that just appeared awkward. Granted, this is their second game, but did anyone else notice this? Did anyone pay attention to the roster changes to explain it?

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by efhead View Post
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    There were periods of time when the passing and player movement seemed very fluid. Remarkably different than last year.

    There were other periods that just appeared awkward. Granted, this is their second game, but did anyone else notice this? Did anyone pay attention to the roster changes to explain it?
    It should be no surprise things look awkward at this point. First, it's preseason against their second opponent. Second, they are all learning a radically new style of play that requires completely different skills than the static, ball hogging style the team used to have. This new style may determine in itself who plays based on their ability to adapt. Players with better instincts like Williams, Daniels, Foster, and maybe Tinsley should thrive. Granger, Dunleavy and JO's games will be fine too. But Ike and Harrison may struggle.

    As for Diener, there are a couple reasons he's better than Sarunas. Yes, they are both good shooters. However, Diener is a much better ball handler and much, much quicker. The reasons Sarunas had problems (ball handling and quickness) will not be an issue for Diener. Diener will be held back only if he is unable to physically defend the position.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I am not close to being ready to seeing Ike anywhere but here.

    He looked like he is trying to learn where he fits in the new system. It looked to me like he was thinking more than reacting.

    But it's just the 2nd preseason game, and even training camp only started a couple of weeks ago. He's still an extremely talented post player, and he seems like a smart guy and a hard worker. I think O'Brien will give him plenty of chances to figure it out.

    Ike is so important because we don't have another pure post player behind JO. Harrison has yet to put together a full season of production. Murphy isn't even close to Ike inside, though he did rebound well last night.

  9. #34
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Remember how almost all of us were making fun of Bird for comparing Diener to Mark Price. Well, I can see the similarities. Diener took two non-three pointers last night from about 15 ft they were almost runners, he was on the move and he made them both and Mark Price used to shoot a very similar shot. Obviously Diener will never be nearly as good as Mark Price, but I can understand why Bird used Price as a comparison. Price had an amazingly quick release and Diener doesn't have that, but if I see Diener start to split pick and rolls and shoot a jump shot off one foot, I'll freak out.

    I'm not ready to give up on Ike yet either - he seems a little slow to learn a new system - so I'm willing to give him time.


    Also, Diener is the best interview on the team now - Did you hear his postgame interview with Mark Boyle - very well spoken and articulate
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-14-2007 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Lets give Ike a bit of a break. He is just starting his third year and this is the 4th new system he has to learn.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    UB, couple things I noticed on TV was these (the things that stood out the most to me):

    1. Diener was hustling his butt off playing defense. You mentioned weak side help, he was the one I noticed the most. He was playing the passing lanes (so was Daniels) and getting to the help line everytime the ball was "away" from his player. He has been well coached in his bball career. Its really early (just 2 preseason games obviously), but be looks like the real deal. Howeva (my best SAS impression), can he play this well defensivley against the Agent 0's and the Nash's and Kidd's of the NBA? We shall see. Hopefully.
    2. Owens, even though he will be mired at the end of the bench, looked really good IMO. He actually reminded me of Fred Jones, not because of his number coincidentally, but because of his aggressiveness to middle of the lane with the ball when it was open. Plus he can actually shoot better from the outside than Freddie could. Agressiveness is one of our biggest downfalls last season.
    3. Daniels - boy its good when he is out there. He is just basically basketball savvy - period. He possesses things a coach cant teach.
    4. Shawne looked like he was moping around for some reason. Hope its not an attitude issue because he can be a really good player. And he can knock down shots.
    5. Offensively the team seemed to be moving around really well. Good spacing. As Quinn mentioned several times, not only the ball movement, but the people movement was very good. It seems that they are going to make the other team's defense work alot more (which is what I screamed alot about last year). This will increase our chance for easier shots and will give us better shooting percentage as a team, IMO.

    Seattle: Man o' man have they got a budding star in Durant. This guy is good. Really good. I see him being a perrenial all star very shortly. I was thinking as I was was watching the game, I would trade Granger and Shawne for him, immediately. Granger's confidence still needs an upgrade as well.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Wow, I was impressed. There had to be about 10 makes with 20 seconds left on the clock. Layups, short jumpers, a three, and a couple of fouls drawn too.

    Oh, and a DUNK with 22 seconds on the clock. 2 seconds and you get a dunk. Better yet that 2 second dunk came off a MADE SHOT by the other team. Now that is some uptempo offense, really amazing.

    So good news if you are a fan of SEATTLE.


    Yes, that's right, the uptempo Pacers were painfully outran and out "early offensed" by the 2 rookie and PJ Carl. Sonics. Seattle has far more new pieces being put together, yet their offense was shredding the Pacers for early makes, or at worst early open misses.


    Meanwhile what did I see on the Pacers end? Oh, just a 3 seconds left desperation heave from 3 by JO. Sure he made it and more on that later but the issue is how did this early offense, ball upcourt instantly offense wind up with NO SHOT for 21 seconds?

    That wasn't typical, but it wasn't far off either. 10-12 seconds was the norm, while on the other end Seattle's norm was closer to 18 seconds left, much, much quicker than Indy.

    That set off my warning alarm. And if Wally had been out there hitting some of those early open mids? Could have gotten ugly.

    And on the issue, just how many nice fastbreaks did the Pacers pull off? I saw Danny miss a wild layup off a JO shot block, I saw an early 3 on 1 (or 4-2 with trailers) go for nothing as well. Didn't see a lot of JO or Danny or Mike out in front for the flying dunk however, or that passing between 3 guys to set up the easy layup.


    Danny continues to force some truly bad shots, driving right into traffic rather than moving the ball. He doesn't seem to get JOB's approach yet. Danny also hasn't found a true dribble drive yet either.


    Troy was just blah, and when he and Mike were out there together Seattle put them into PnR situations together. Early on they got an uncontested layup in the halfcourt out of this play from the wing.


    Ike looks awkward still, maybe a bit more than last year even. Did you see him do a jump-catch in the low post and then as soon as he caught it and landed he jumped awkwardly back up into a jump turnaround? He made it but this can not possibly be considered a good go-to play. No idea why he chose to raise the difficulty for himself on that one.


    Of course the Pacers won, beating a team that everyone at PD thinks will finish better than them....oh wait that's right, when I say the Pacers will end up with one of the worst records many of you point to teams just like Seattle and New Orleans as teams that will finish behind the Pacers, not better than them.

    Well they got 2 wins against those teams at home (but to be fair the thin crowds reduce that HC advantage some). Hurray.



    So I'm seeing this stuff and thinking "how are they winning, this is awful". Obviously it wasn't all awful.
    THE GOOD?

    JO, JO, JO. Seattle gets it to 4 points. JO goes low post (oh no, is Rick back) and scores over a double team with a turn-fade (oh no, not that again). JO comes back and gets a huge shot block (Danny wastes it at the other end but still, great defense by JO). JO hits a freaking bail-out 3.

    The best offense ran through JO. An early Troy layup? Pass from JO at the high post, and a tough one through traffic at that. An assist on a kickout by Troy? Came from another great JO feed. Danny goes baseline for a layup? Give and go off of JO ala he and Jack last year, my favorite play they ran in fact. Great to see it in action with those 2 this year.

    JO was a solid passing big last year, despite some PD attitude based on 3-4 years ago play that he wasn't. To me it looks like he's taking that passing up even another level. He was the floor leader, or he and Mike. Meaning you want the ball in their hands every play, at least to set up other things and to make the right read.


    Mike. This is Mike last year but so far with the added 3 I've said they desperately need. If he's really found his 3pt touch from his first 2 years it's going to be a massive help. For the first 2 games this year it has been. He still can't do much with drives, getting another without a make or a foul drawn at one point that was typical Dun, but otherwise you want the ball in his hands.

    Diener. Not a star, he's not going to be the guy that wins battles for you, but he is a solid 3pt ace PG that unlike Saras can actually protect the ball and run the offense enough to justify him staying on the court.

    Foster. Dude looks brilliant, he looks like he understands the system better than anyone. He's making great passes, including a feed through traffic to Danny at the rim...then Danny proceded to miss the point blank shot.

    IMO if something very drastic doesn't change I don't see how JOB can start Troy over Jeff, it's not even close when you add in the defensive end. With Mike, JO, Tins and Danny you don't need a 5th option anyway, and Foster makes the rest of the system at both ends flow nicely.

    Danny's Three
    . Danny had a spotty night but his outside jumper did not. He's confident in it and should be. The more JOB's system can get him this open look the better. Danny taking 8 of these a night at his potential 38-40 make rate sounds damn good to me. It was critical vs Seattle (as was Mike's)

    Owens? Well, kind of. Hard to tell in games like these but he definitely is the best offensive 3rd PG option we've seen in a long time around here. Dare I say "Best like" in his style and quality, ie he'll drive hard for a somewhat high difficulty wild layup that he actually makes or draws a foul on and he's fast and attacking with his dribble.

    At his price and expected role I'll take a poor man's Best in a heartbeat.

    Quis. Okay, didn't blow me away but he played. Not that he was bad, just that he wasn't star-like as this might suggest either. What is "good" about Quis is that he was just out there healthy doing what he does. Great bench guy that gives you a little of everything ala McKey (which I said last year). He's way more McKey than the more offensively aggressive Dun as someone tried to suggest.

    Like McKey Quis lets himself fade into the background a bit and just looks for holes that need filling. He's critical to the Pacers chances. I didn't like the GS trade, but I also did agree that Quis being hurt was part of that final 3 months problem.



    Compared to last year most of this team looks 100% the same. JO low, JO defense, help on shot blocks, Foster hustle boards, Mike all around offense but slow on defense, Danny hitting 3s but overall inconsistant, Quis slashing...

    The only things I saw noticably better is top of the arc passing and some mid-clock rotation passing. They moved the ball out of trouble better, they started a lot of plays off with move weaving action out top as well, and a bit livlier off the ball movement also.

    In the end it didn't really get them any earlier shots and they basically never really got a full transition game going.


    I'll concede that it's early and that JOB's system might not yet have taken hold. But if you watched that game and saw Danny's 3s and JO in the low post or taking a high post fade jumper and thought "yeah, this is different" then you didn't watch the Pacers last year.

    The best parts of the team right now are the same parts that were best last year. And they still gave up a boatload of EARLY, EASY scores.

    You might be fine with that but I'd be shocked if JOB was. This roster has a long way to go.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 10-14-2007 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Mal and I were trying to think of when the Pacers ever had a better shooting point guard - and I couldn't think of when the NBA Pacers ever had a better shooting point.
    Maybe you are right. It would go back to this guy:

    http://www.remembertheaba.com/Tribut...al/Keller.html

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    You know, when Bird said he was going to sign, "One of the best shooters in the league", we all thought he was referring to Kareem Rush. In hindsight, I think he was referring to Travis Diener. This dude is lights out.
    My brother-in-law is from Fon Du Lac, Wi. Diener is a legend there and apparently his most distinguished characteristic has always been his incredible shooting ability. That and his attitude. Both of which have been sorely missing.

    I still hope Rush can contribute, but Diener looks to be the off-season pick up of most potential right now given our shooting and PG deficiencies of late. If Tins goes down, welcome to NBA starter TD. Could get ugly with certain match up defensively, but at least there's some positive suspense with that prospect.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Also, I'm going to go ahead and say that Diener is clearly better than Sarunas. Better shooter, better ball-handler, better attitude, and frankly, better defense.
    Yes. I think Owens might be a bit better as well. Harder to say with him since things have been so out of control due to it being preseason.

    Just so it's clear I'm not all negative, not even close. Some things are better. My issue is that a lot of them aren't and that some of the best things are things people complained about (though not me), like "feed JO low, he shoots against a double".



    Kegoy - I don't blame QB for gushing on Green, the kid was impressive. Seattle might take a fairly solid jump from where they finished last year based on seeing he and Durant working together. They were surprisingly smooth.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    My brother-in-law is from Fon Du Lac, Wi. Diener is a legend there and apparently his most distinguished characteristic has always been his incredible shooting ability. That and his attitude. Both of which have been sorely missing.

    I still hope Rush can contribute, but Diener looks to be the off-season pick up of most potential right now given our shooting and PG deficiencies of late. If Tins goes down, welcome to NBA starter TD. Could get ugly with certain match up defensively, but at least there's some positive suspense with that prospect.
    Man you make TD sound like a hometown legend like our old "Mayor" - Fred Hoiberg.

    Thats OK though.

    Another thought to go along with my earlier thoughts is Rush. He seemed to be glued to the 3 point line. I hope thats not all we will see out of him. He needs to be shot and head faking and driving to the hoop as much as he shoots, to keep the defense honest, an open up his shot a bit more.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I just didn't see the great offense or snappy ball movement you guys are talking about, nor did I see the improved team defense.




















    But that is because I wasn't able to see the game so thanks for the report UB and the rest of ya! It sounds promising.

    -Bball
    I was about to attack you.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Seth, in case you were still confused....

    Wow, I was impressed. There had to be about 10 makes with 20 seconds left on the clock. Layups, short jumpers, a three, and a couple of fouls drawn too.

    Oh, and a DUNK with 22 seconds on the clock. 2 seconds and you get a dunk. Better yet that 2 second dunk came off a MADE SHOT by the other team. Now that is some uptempo offense, really amazing.

    So good news if you are a fan of SEATTLE.


    Yes, that's right, the uptempo Pacers were painfully outran and out "early offensed" by the 2 rookie and PJ Carl. Sonics. Seattle has far more new pieces being put together, yet their offense was shredding the Pacers for early makes, or at worst early open misses.


    Meanwhile what did I see on the Pacers end? Oh, just a 3 seconds left desperation heave from 3 by JO. Sure he made it and more on that later but the issue is how did this early offense, ball upcourt instantly offense wind up with NO SHOT for 21 seconds?

    That wasn't typical, but it wasn't far off either. 10-12 seconds was the norm, while on the other end Seattle's norm was closer to 18 seconds left, much, much quicker than Indy.

    That set off my warning alarm. And if Wally had been out there hitting some of those early open mids? Could have gotten ugly.

    And on the issue, just how many nice fastbreaks did the Pacers pull off? I saw Danny miss a wild layup off a JO shot block, I saw an early 3 on 1 (or 4-2 with trailers) go for nothing as well. Didn't see a lot of JO or Danny or Mike out in front for the flying dunk however, or that passing between 3 guys to set up the easy layup.


    Danny continues to force some truly bad shots, driving right into traffic rather than moving the ball. He doesn't seem to get JOB's approach yet. Danny also hasn't found a true dribble drive yet either.


    Troy was just blah, and when he and Mike were out there together Seattle put them into PnR situations together. Early on they got an uncontested layup in the halfcourt out of this play from the wing.


    Ike looks awkward still, maybe a bit more than last year even. Did you see him do a jump-catch in the low post and then as soon as he caught it and landed he jumped awkwardly back up into a jump turnaround? He made it but this can not possibly be considered a good go-to play. No idea why he chose to raise the difficulty for himself on that one.


    Of course the Pacers won, beating a team that everyone at PD thinks will finish better than them....oh wait that's right, when I say the Pacers will end up with one of the worst records many of you point to teams just like Seattle and New Orleans as teams that will finish behind the Pacers, not better than them.

    Well they got 2 wins against those teams at home (but to be fair the thin crowds reduce that HC advantage some). Hurray.
    Comments like this are why people give you **** around here. You seem unable to NOT spend if not the majority then regardless a LOT of your time dissecting the team until there's little to nothing pretty left to be seen. It gets extremely tiring to read. I'm sure you don't view it that way, but when you keep cranking these kinds of things out, perception becomes reality, and that's what I think most see. Please at least think about that for a while.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I started thinking this morning about the first time I ever saw Saras play - I wondered whether I was really high on him like I am on Diener.

    So I went back and dug out my post from two years ago after the first time I ever saw Saras play. Here it is. I wrote this in October of 2005. Keep in mind this was after one early preseason game. This was also the first time most of us saw Granger at least in the NBA


    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=15438

    Saras - I don't have him figured out yet. He lost the ball several times and had a lot of trouble against the pressure defense of Troy Hudson, I mean he had all kinds of trouble, He made AJ look like Jason Kidd. Saras dribbled the ball off his foot, he threw the ball away several times and simply could not deal with the pressure defense

    However, I'm not ready to give up on him, thats for sure. But I do question whether he is an NBA point guard. But he does have a lot of leadership skills, at times he reminded me of Mark Jackson. Saras knows how to run a team. I just don't know if he lacks quickness or if he is just tentative right now.

    My sense is that Saras is a specialist, and yet he has some skills that starting point guards have. As I said I don't have him figured out yet. He sees the floor, he can shoot, he can do a lot of things, and he seems to be able to make plays in the clutch. Tinsley might start but if Saras can continue to make plays at crunch time Saras might finish games.

    I really studied his defense tonight and I was expecting the worst. Overall I was pleasantly surprised. He reminds me very much of Mark Jackson on the defensive end. Sure, I wish he could pressure the ball and be a lockdown defender, but we know he never will be. But his anticipation is excellent, he was able to get several deflections.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-14-2007 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But if you watched that game and saw Danny's 3s and JO in the low post or taking a high post fade jumper and thought "yeah, this is different" then you didn't watch the Pacers last year.
    Also, comments like this take it too far. You can't stop with stating your opinion, you have to essentially tell everyone who disagrees that they're a moron while you're at it.

  21. #46
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Compared to last year most of this team looks 100% the same.
    ...
    The only things I saw noticably better is top of the arc passing and some mid-clock rotation passing. They moved the ball out of trouble better, they started a lot of plays off with move weaving action out top as well, and a bit livlier off the ball movement also.
    In the end it didn't really get them any earlier shots and they basically never really got a full transition game going.
    ...
    The best parts of the team right now are the same parts that were best last year.
    ...
    And they still gave up a boatload of EARLY, EASY scores. You might be fine with that but I'd be shocked if JOB was. This roster has a long way to go.
    I disagree with most of your post. I think comparing them to Seattle confuses the issue. That is, Seattle could look like the Suns as far as I'm concerned and that would not change the fact the Pacers look and play nothing like they did last year. Also, whether the Pacers are better is not the point. Seattle and Indiana could both stink right now, but that does not change the fact the Pacers look and play nothing like they did last year.

    For example, although JO had some post-ups, the context was usually very different. That is, there was no throw it into JO going on where everyone else just stands with their hands on their hips. There was no Jamaal Tinsley Rucker Park expedition. Instead, we had a solid shooter playing at PG a good part of the evening. We had another guy playing PG who played tough man defense and was at least a competent scoring threat. We had neither of those at PG last year. We had other guys on the floor like Kareem Rush and Shawne Williams who...whether they hit their shots or not...were capable of an accurate shot. I understand this is just preseason, but Mike Dunleavy does not look like the same player. Shawne Williams looks like a more mature player...pulling down 10 boards and looking more comfortable. ....and the ball movement resembled nothing I have seen in the last few years. Not saying that's good, but it certainly looked nothing like last year.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Now ABA, this is at least the second thread in which you have asked this question. Are you maybe trying to make a point?

    They say that sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut.



    You just hope its not one of yours!
    Yes I realize this is the second thread I just wanted confirmation from multiple sources that Larry Bird did, indeed, sign Travis Diener.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    You just hope its not one of yours!
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  24. #49
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    As for Diener, there are a couple reasons he's better than Sarunas. Yes, they are both good shooters.
    Sarunas made his reputation as a shooter in FIBA, not the NBA. He's not a "good" shooter at the NBA level. He's a career 35% from 3. That's not terrible, but certainly not great. You're better off with Danny taking the three than Sarunas.

    You can live as an NBA point guard with a 35% accuracy, but you've got to bring some other skills to the party. Sarunas couldn't defend, couldn't advance the ball, couldn't drive, and complained when he played off guard. There's a reason he's no longer in the NBA.
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  25. #50
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Okay I have a few things I wouold like to point out
    #1. Tinsley was wearing a tie. Last year when tinsley was out he would wear a white t-shirt and a suit jacket.
    #2. The passing was great, I especially like the cross court passes we made last night.
    #3.Hustle, we dove for loose balls, got the offensive boards, and really played team defense.
    #4. Troy Played D. I am excited to see the pacers and Pistons.
    #5.Love the 3 pt accuracy, we are better than I expected.
    #6. Not very many dunks at all.

    yeah this is preseason but it is a good sign

    plus I will say right now we might just have
    MIP of the leauge in Diener
    COY in Obrien
    and D 1 team O'Neal
    Allstars O'Neal and Granger
    3pt contest Diener
    Passion, Pride, Playoffs, Pacers

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