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Thread: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

  1. #51
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Sarunas made his reputation as a shooter in FIBA, not the NBA. He's not a "good" shooter at the NBA level. He's a career 35% from 3. That's not terrible, but certainly not great. You're better off with Danny taking the three than Sarunas.

    You can live as an NBA point guard with a 35% accuracy, but you've got to bring some other skills to the party. Sarunas couldn't defend, couldn't advance the ball, couldn't drive, and complained when he played off guard. There's a reason he's no longer in the NBA.
    Saras has many, many flaws to his game, but shooting is not one of them.

    ...and I didn't say Saras is a great shooter, but I certainly think he still qualifies as a good shooter at the NBA level. First, he hit 92.2% from the free throw line last year as a Pacer. In fact, he actually does qualify as great from the line with a career % of nearly 91%.

    As for 3's, he hit 36.4% his rookie year and 37.2% his second year as a Pacer. No, that's not great, but it qualifies as good notwithstanding all the other flaws to his game...particularly when you compare him to Tinsley who is completely left open and cannot even shoot that well.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman View Post
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    Allstars O'Neal and Granger
    Hey, I can chug Kool-aid with the best of them, but there's no way Granger gets an all-star nod this year. Heck, with Pierce playing forward and Garnett in the East, JO might not get the nod unless he's at center.

    That doesn't mean Danny can't have a great year. But the East is`loaded at forward.
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Hey, I can chug Kool-aid with the best of them, but there's no way Granger gets an all-star nod this year. Heck, with Pierce playing forward and Garnett in the East, JO might not get the nod unless he's at center.

    That doesn't mean Danny can't have a great year. But the East is`loaded at forward.
    Yes, JO just moved down a notch in the EC with Chris Bosh and Garnett clearly in the lead in the East. Zach Randolph might have a really good year being teamed with Curry in NY....and if he keeps his nose clean, it could get even tighter at PF.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    As for 3's, he hit 36.4% his rookie year and 37.2% his second year as a Pacer. No, that's not great, but it qualifies as good notwithstanding all the other flaws to his game...particularly when you compare him to Tinsley who is completely left open and cannot even shoot that well.
    Jamaal shot 37% from 03 to 05, and Sarunas was supposed to improve on that. If shooting threes is the only thing you can do, you should do better than 37%.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    There was no Jamaal Tinsley Rucker Park expedition.
    Hard to do from the bench in a suit.

    Comparing them to Seattle points out that:

    A) their tempo is nothing compared to a team that was really uptempo, and no way the Sonics are going to outrun Phoenix or even Golden State it would seem, which means that the Sonics are NOT the high water mark of uptempo at this point.

    And again the Pacers finished 10th in pace last year, not 25th or something. They went up and down the court at a pretty good clip, forced and awkward though it was.

    B) the Pacers defense was a joke much of the night, except for JO of course. I did see some moments of perhaps improved help defense, at least the recognition that something should be done. But the Sonics scored at will and near the rim for long periods of the evening. Again, there were a lot of missed open jumpers that helped out.

    Why do I care? Because I want the team to win and I'm telling you right now that they will not win games if they let teams like Seattle get to the rim for an open layup or dunk in 2-5 seconds of the shot clock. There is no way that Dick Harter or JOB agree with anyone that says that defensive effort was okay.




    Remember the CAKEWALK THREAD? Yeah, I'm a big jerk. Okay then, let's just look at some of the GUSHING RESPONSES right here in this thread over said "meaningless games". Not only meaningless, but at home against 2 teams that all .500 teams would be expected to beat on their own court.

    COY, playoffs, all-stars...we got these opinions from 2 preseason games against teams that people expect to be average at best.

    I ask only a simple thing for those of you impressed by these games, or not impressed, or in any way thought you could tell anything about the Pacers from seeing or even reading about these 2 games - please just drop in the cakewalk thread and mention it.

    I don't care if your opinion is that these games aren't as easy as I implied or that regardless of the skills of the opponents there are plenty of things you can pick up on.

    That's a lot better than "so what it's just preseason...oh wait, we won, well then that tells us a lot".

    And in fairness if your a person who did dismiss the preseason as worthless and you are maintaining that POV then I have no problem with you. You are consistant and fair and I respect that. If you pop in here and say "who cares if Mike hit 3s in this game, let's seem him do it when it counts" then I get your POV even if I don't share it.



    When the Digest starts filling up with "man, the Bucks are loaded, their new coach has them playing playoff caliber ball" after a 2-1 start playing against Chicago and Utah, then maybe I'll feel like there is an air of reasonable thought.

    I'm not the only one. Anthem, for example, sees "Granger All-Star" after a 4-10 night with 2 boards, an assist and a turnover and says "now hold on there". Notice how that's not the same as "he sucks". Pulling in the reigns of expectations is not the same as being negative and hostile. To his credit he keeps it short and sweet, whereas I stink at that.

    The Pacers have had a couple of mixed effort games so far against blah teams. Can't we just add those facts up to the kind of expectation we'd have if it was another team under discussion? Right now it sounds a little like Lakers fans telling us that Farmar and Bynum were going to be awesome and the Lakers were title contenders as is, without JO (might be tough to buy even with JO).

    I don't want us to be like that, that's all.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 10-14-2007 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Jamaal shot 37% from 03 to 05, and Sarunas was supposed to improve on that. If shooting threes is the only thing you can do, you should do better than 37%.
    I agree that if shooting threes is the only thing Saras can do, he should be shooting better...like Jason Kapono for example.

    However, I notice you omitted JT's putrid 22% and 31% showings in '06 and '07. Shame, shame.

    ...and to boot, Sarunas was actually guarded. Teams dared JT to shoot the ball and he still poorly. I could shoot 35% in an empty gym, so maybe I need to suit up.

    Hey, I'm no Sarunas fan but even I know he's a he&& of a lot better shooter than JT. It might be the only thing he does on the floor better than Jamaal, but there is no comparison.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-14-2007 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    All I'm trying to tell you, Seth, is that you continue to choose to focus on the bad when there are good things happening. When you combine that choice with your posting style, which is to post often and to write a lot within each post, it becomes domineering. Particularly when you get condescending about it (with comments along the lines of, "how can you NOT see this?" or other simply sarcastic comments).

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Granger won't be an all-star there. Even if he has a ridiculous year (which is something I don't think hes quite ready for yet) he would still have to jump over Pierce, Lebron, KG, JO, Randolph etc to get an all star nod.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    The edited for Mal's eyes repost....
    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Wow, I was impressed. There had to be about 10 makes with 20 seconds left on the clock. Layups, short jumpers, a three, and a couple of fouls drawn too.

    Oh, and a DUNK with 22 seconds on the clock. 2 seconds and you get a dunk. Better yet that 2 second dunk came off a MADE SHOT by the other team. Now that is some uptempo offense, really amazing.

    So good news if you are a fan of SEATTLE.



    Yes, that's right, the uptempo Pacers were painfully outran and out "early offensed" by the 2 rookie and PJ Carl. Sonics. Seattle has far more new pieces being put together, yet their offense was shredding the Pacers for early makes, or at worst early open misses.


    Meanwhile what did I see on the Pacers end? Oh, just a 3 seconds left desperation heave from 3 by JO. Sure he made it and more on that later but the issue is how did this early offense, ball upcourt instantly offense wind up with NO SHOT for 21 seconds?

    That wasn't typical, but it wasn't far off either. 10-12 seconds was the norm, while on the other end Seattle's norm was closer to 18 seconds left, much, much quicker than Indy.

    That set off my warning alarm. And if Wally had been out there hitting some of those early open mids? Could have gotten ugly.

    And on the issue, just how many nice fastbreaks did the Pacers pull off? I saw Danny miss a wild layup off a JO shot block, I saw an early 3 on 1 (or 4-2 with trailers) go for nothing as well. Didn't see a lot of JO or Danny or Mike out in front for the flying dunk however, or that passing between 3 guys to set up the easy layup.



    Danny continues to force some truly bad shots, driving right into traffic rather than moving the ball. He doesn't seem to get JOB's approach yet. Danny also hasn't found a true dribble drive yet either.


    Troy was just blah, and when he and Mike were out there together Seattle put them into PnR situations together. Early on they got an uncontested layup in the halfcourt out of this play from the wing.


    Ike looks awkward still, maybe a bit more than last year even. Did you see him do a jump-catch in the low post and then as soon as he caught it and landed he jumped awkwardly back up into a jump turnaround? He made it but this can not possibly be considered a good go-to play. No idea why he chose to raise the difficulty for himself on that one.


    Of course the Pacers won, beating a team that everyone at PD thinks will finish better than them....oh wait that's right, when I say the Pacers will end up with one of the worst records many of you point to teams just like Seattle and New Orleans as teams that will finish behind the Pacers, not better than them.

    Well they got 2 wins against those teams at home (but to be fair the thin crowds reduce that HC advantage some). Hurray.



    So I'm seeing this stuff and thinking "how are they winning, this is awful". Obviously it wasn't all awful.
    THE GOOD?

    JO, JO, JO. Seattle gets it to 4 points. JO goes low post (oh no, is Rick back) and scores over a double team with a turn-fade (oh no, not that again). JO comes back and gets a huge shot block (Danny wastes it at the other end but still, great defense by JO). JO hits a freaking bail-out 3.

    The best offense ran through JO. An early Troy layup? Pass from JO at the high post, and a tough one through traffic at that. An assist on a kickout by Troy? Came from another great JO feed. Danny goes baseline for a layup? Give and go off of JO ala he and Jack last year, my favorite play they ran in fact. Great to see it in action with those 2 this year.

    JO was a solid passing big last year, despite some PD attitude based on 3-4 years ago play that he wasn't. To me it looks like he's taking that passing up even another level. He was the floor leader, or he and Mike. Meaning you want the ball in their hands every play, at least to set up other things and to make the right read.


    Mike. This is Mike last year but so far with the added 3 I've said they desperately need. If he's really found his 3pt touch from his first 2 years it's going to be a massive help. For the first 2 games this year it has been. He still can't do much with drives, getting another without a make or a foul drawn at one point that was typical Dun, but otherwise you want the ball in his hands.

    Diener. Not a star, he's not going to be the guy that wins battles for you, but he is a solid 3pt ace PG that unlike Saras can actually protect the ball and run the offense enough to justify him staying on the court.

    Foster. Dude looks brilliant, he looks like he understands the system better than anyone. He's making great passes, including a feed through traffic to Danny at the rim...then Danny proceded to miss the point blank shot.

    IMO if something very drastic doesn't change I don't see how JOB can start Troy over Jeff, it's not even close when you add in the defensive end. With Mike, JO, Tins and Danny you don't need a 5th option anyway, and Foster makes the rest of the system at both ends flow nicely.

    Danny's Three
    . Danny had a spotty night but his outside jumper did not. He's confident in it and should be. The more JOB's system can get him this open look the better. Danny taking 8 of these a night at his potential 38-40 make rate sounds damn good to me. It was critical vs Seattle (as was Mike's)

    Owens? Well, kind of. Hard to tell in games like these but he definitely is the best offensive 3rd PG option we've seen in a long time around here. Dare I say "Best like" in his style and quality, ie he'll drive hard for a somewhat high difficulty wild layup that he actually makes or draws a foul on and he's fast and attacking with his dribble.

    At his price and expected role I'll take a poor man's Best in a heartbeat.

    Quis. Okay, didn't blow me away but he played. Not that he was bad, just that he wasn't star-like as this might suggest either. What is "good" about Quis is that he was just out there healthy doing what he does. Great bench guy that gives you a little of everything ala McKey (which I said last year). He's way more McKey than the more offensively aggressive Dun as someone tried to suggest.

    Like McKey Quis lets himself fade into the background a bit and just looks for holes that need filling. He's critical to the Pacers chances. I didn't like the GS trade, but I also did agree that Quis being hurt was part of that final 3 months problem.



    Compared to last year most of this team looks 100% the same. JO low, JO defense, help on shot blocks, Foster hustle boards, Mike all around offense but slow on defense, Danny hitting 3s but overall inconsistant, Quis slashing...

    The only
    things I saw noticably better is top of the arc passing and some mid-clock rotation passing. They moved the ball out of trouble better, they started a lot of plays off with move weaving action out top as well, and a bit livlier off the ball movement also.

    In the end it didn't really get them any earlier shots and they basically never really got a full transition game going.


    I'll concede that it's early and that JOB's system might not yet have taken hold. But if you watched that game and saw Danny's 3s and JO in the low post or taking a high post fade jumper and thought "yeah, this is different" then you didn't watch the Pacers last year.

    The best parts of the team right now are the same parts that were best last year. And they still gave up a boatload of EARLY, EASY scores.

    You might be fine with that but I'd be shocked if JOB was. This roster has a long way to go.
    I hope I didn't spoil it by leaving it a tinge of pessimism regarding the tempo and transition offense. I didn't want it to come off as too sunny to be realistic. Not sure if I left anything "pretty" after this new version of the dissection either.


    (yes there is sarcasm here, but also a serious point that my post was far from just negative)

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Nap:

    I'm not saying the team is good, particularly until a month passes into the regular season. I certainly do agree that the defense looks like a drunk must be in charge of it. I have a narrow disagreement with you with respect to your statement that the team "looked 100% the same" as last year. Personally, I did not recognize that offense and believe it could not be more clear that someone else is designing the plays.

    As for the gushing, it is warranted. People are sensing that the franchise is beginning to turn the corner in terms of personnel issues. I know...Shawne...but I say let people be positive....and my God, I have been a major cynic. Also, IMO the franchise is starting to make some smart decisions for the first time in several years. They at least partially addressed the perimeter shooting issues by picking up Diener and Rush...two low risk projects that may really fill a need. Certainly not great players, but we had a gaping wound there that an old sock would improve upon. In short, I truly believe we will have a better team than last year and I hope that is the beginning of a turnaround.

    Oh, and as for Tinsley not playing...that certainly backs up my point that the team did not "look 100% like last year".

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    All I'm trying to tell you, Seth, is that you continue to choose to focus on the bad when there are good things happening. When you combine that choice with your posting style, which is to post often and to write a lot within each post, it becomes domineering. Particularly when you get condescending about it (with comments along the lines of, "how can you NOT see this?" or other simply sarcastic comments).
    As administrator, can you limit the number of bytes or lines per post? It would be nice to have condensed versions...

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    As administrator, can you limit the number of bytes or lines per post? It would be nice to have condensed versions...
    Please please please don't. Some of the best articles are long, and some of the best PD game analysts write long posts. *cough*Peck*cough*

    It's not that hard to see a 3000 word essay from a poster whose style and themes you know well and simply skip it if you're not in the mood.

    We've all had periods like this.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    BnG, it's just that we can pull the same comments from this same period last year, or the year before.

    What I saw was a team trying to do some other things, but in the end it was at it's best when JO was in the low post and Danny/Mike were hitting from the outside. That's my concern. The differences didn't win the Sonics game, JO's shot blocking and play from the post won that game, along with Mike and Danny's 3.

    Well they had that from JO last year and they had Danny making 3s, Al, Troy, even Jackson after November. Still didn't win a lot of games.

    And last year they didn't give up such easy, early buckets. With this big focus on defense that's a concern as well.

    It all reminds me of just how up on the team you can get after FanJam, that first time you see them when the challenge isn't quite full speed yet. Things seem to be clicking when the resistance is 85%, but that last 10-15% effort, tempo, intensity, whatever are where everything locks up and it goes sour.

    Then there we all are saying "what happened". If they had the scores that Seattle did, really early in the clock, then I'd say things were different. They didn't, and when things got tough they fell back to the stuff they relied on previously.


    I've conceded that it's early and there is no way I would expect JOB's system to be running well enough to judge. Gotta go maybe 15 games into the season even for that.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I enjoyed seeing the Pacers run a play that the Celts used to run with Pierce and Walker. The power forward has the ball near the top of the key, and the guard or small forward flashes into the post. It is a good play because all the big defenders are drawn out of the lane.
    I hope we run this play alot. It sounds like it would work well with well with JONeal / Murphy in the high-post with Marquis ( most notably ) / Tinsley / ( maybe even ) Shawne / Granger slashing to the basket.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    LA - I was kidding about supporting a byte count limit. I really don't believe that...but I guess it's a dangerous suggestion.

    Nap - I understand the concern with the irrational exuberance. I am about the first to throw water on it and could never be mistaken as a sunshiner. But the fact is, I am pretty optimistic right now...not high on the team...but pleased about the immediate present and future of the franchise as I think we have turned the proverbial corner. I was completely pessimistic last year because we still had Jackson (and the chemistry issues) and the powers that be thought we could get by with Al Harrington and JO as the front line...with no shooters....that made me begin to wonder if the earth was actually flat and I was completely missing it.

    So typically, I am not the type to shower positive vibes unless there is reason to do so....

    I'm also pleased about some of the additions, particularly Diener and Rush. No, they are not great players, but they fill a large gap - shooting. I also like the effort from Diener and Owens. What it all comes down to, I like seeing effort and good shooting. I think we improved those areas...

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I'm exited about this season mainly because we are shifting from a philosophy that defense begins on the offensive end to one that offense is generated from defense.
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    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Okay maybe not Granger but I still think JO can beat out Zac Randolph and if he plays good enough maybe CB. I think KG is a lock because of his popularity. I do think danny could have a star caliber year.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I think we need to hold on to Ike until we have 100% certainty regarding JO.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I think we need to hold on to Ike until we have 100% certainty regarding JO.
    Exactly. Ike is our "JO going down or leaving town" insurance. Not much of a policy, but big men always take time.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I started thinking this morning about the first time I ever saw Saras play - I wondered whether I was really high on him like I am on Diener.

    So I went back and dug out my post from two years ago after the first time I ever saw Saras play. Here it is. I wrote this in October of 2005. Keep in mind this was after one early preseason game. This was also the first time most of us saw Granger at least in the NBA


    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=15438

    Saras - I don't have him figured out yet. He lost the ball several times and had a lot of trouble against the pressure defense of Troy Hudson, I mean he had all kinds of trouble, He made AJ look like Jason Kidd. Saras dribbled the ball off his foot, he threw the ball away several times and simply could not deal with the pressure defense

    However, I'm not ready to give up on him, thats for sure. But I do question whether he is an NBA point guard. But he does have a lot of leadership skills, at times he reminded me of Mark Jackson. Saras knows how to run a team. I just don't know if he lacks quickness or if he is just tentative right now.

    My sense is that Saras is a specialist, and yet he has some skills that starting point guards have. As I said I don't have him figured out yet. He sees the floor, he can shoot, he can do a lot of things, and he seems to be able to make plays in the clutch. Tinsley might start but if Saras can continue to make plays at crunch time Saras might finish games.

    I really studied his defense tonight and I was expecting the worst. Overall I was pleasantly surprised. He reminds me very much of Mark Jackson on the defensive end. Sure, I wish he could pressure the ball and be a lockdown defender, but we know he never will be. But his anticipation is excellent, he was able to get several deflections.
    I just wish I had a transcript of the forum party where Hicks was comparing Cabbage to Reggie.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  21. #71
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Yeah I know I said I am moving on, but when is enough enough? The Pacers may never be a true to form running team, but Damn at least give them a chance to see if they can pull it off.

    Seth, you are just pissed because they traded your man Jackson, and now you are throwing water on the rest of us Pacer fans who actually want the team to get better. You would rather see the Pacers fail, so you could say, I told you so.

    Mal, is too diplomatic to tell you what I have posted, but you need told, so there.

    OK Mal, tell me how wrong I am.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    I'll reiterate that for the time being it would be best if you left Seth alone. I think we may both disagree strongly with Seth, but I think we see two different people when we "look at him".

    In the end, civility is something we try to strongly enforce, so eventually if you can't keep yourself from staying civil with Seth I will have to step in. But I'd rather let you take care of it yourself.

    I too wish things were different, but there's only so far you can take your comments to anyone, Seth or otherwise, you disagree (a little or a whole lot) with before it's just a back-and-forth cycle that never ends and results in nothing good.

  23. #73
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    I'm exited
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Arcadian has left the building!
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  24. #74
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Ladies and Gentlemen, Arcadian has left the building!

  25. #75
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Sonics postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    Seth, you are just pissed because they traded your man Jackson, and now you are throwing water on the rest of us Pacer fans who actually want the team to get better. You would rather see the Pacers fail, so you could say, I told you so.

    Mal, is too diplomatic to tell you what I have posted, but you need told, so there.

    OK Mal, tell me how wrong I am.
    I think Seth probably has you on ignore. But I'll fill in.

    You're wrong. Let it go.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

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