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Thread: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

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    Default Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/featu...rs_071004.html

    KEY ROLES FOR DUNLEAVY, MURPHY, DIOGU
    Trade trio hungry for redemption



    By Conrad Brunner | Oct. 4, 2007
    Having spent a little time as an NBA analyst in his sabbatical from coaching, Jim O'Brien understands the tendency for knee-jerk reaction to bury a trade before it has a chance to take root. It doesn't mean he has to agree.

    Fully aware of widespread criticism of the Pacers' eight-player trade with Golden State last season that brought Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy and Ike Diogu to Indiana, O'Brien believes the tide of opinion will turn this season because the coach sees the three ex-Warriors playing vital roles in lifting the Pacers back into playoff contention.

    "People have said in the past that we sent Al (Harrington) and Stephen Jackson to Golden State and did we get enough value back?" O'Brien said. "I think when all is said and done we're going to look back on the trade for Ike and Murph and Mike very, very favorably here and I anticipate it'll start this year."

    Dunleavy looks like the front-runner to start at shooting guard, while Murphy's shooting ability and added bulk could push him past Jeff Foster at center. Diogu remains something of a wild card but all indications are he will be given every opportunity to secure a prominent role in the rotation.

    "Why they didn't achieve at the level that maybe some people would have predicted (last season), I think it's very difficult to get traded in the middle of the year, I think the situation here was a little bit in disarray," O'Brien said. "It's tough to change in the middle of the year to be able to acclimate them into a system smoothly. That's the best I can do.

    "I would say a year from now, as this year goes a long, everybody is going to feel pretty good about who they really are as players. I don't think they've scratched the surface in Indiana yet."

    That would mean redemption for young veterans Dunleavy and Murphy, who bore the brunt of media criticism for the Warriors' annual failings, and a much-anticipated breakthrough for Diogu, whose output has not yet squared with his talent.

    It also would erase a painful stigma. None of the three have been to the playoffs, a problem that became more acute when they joined the Pacers in midseason, only to see their new team fail to reach the postseason for the first time in 10 years.

    As much as those things would mean for the players, individually, they would mean even more to the Pacers, collectively.

    DUNLEAVY: PUTTING THE FUN IN FUNDAMENTAL
    To this point in his career, Dunleavy has been known more for what he hasn't done than what he has. Though he's been a productive player, averaging at least 11.7 points, 4.9 rebounds and 2.6 assists in each of the past five seasons, he hasn't become a star -- an expectation immediately assigned when a player is drafted No. 3 overall.

    With his trade to Indiana, however, Dunleavy has shed the burden of Golden State expectations and now is free to achieve to his level, whatever that may be.



    "It's almost a good-news, bad-news joke to be drafted No. 3," said O'Brien. "The good news is you're drafted No. 3; the bad news is in some cases the expectations are unattainable early on in your career. I think especially being here, with the understanding of the people of Indiana of good basketball, of what good playmaking can be – I don't just look to Jamaal Tinsley as a playmaker, I think Mike Dunleavy is a playmaker.

    "I'm going to want the ball in his hands because he can not only score but he makes passes, he makes things happen. He has an understanding of the game of basketball at a very high level and I want to take advantage of that. If you're looking for him to be one of the top scorers in the league you're not going to see it. He's always going to have a good assist-turnover ratio, he's going to be a good rebounder, he's just going to be a great team player."

    Dunleavy settled in nicely with the Pacers last year, averaging 14.0 points, 5.7 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 43 games, all starts. After leaving the abstract up-tempo system of Golden State Coach Don Nelson, he adapted to the halfcourt approach of former Indiana Coach Rick Carlisle. Enter O'Brien, who wants the Pacers to play at a faster offensive tempo with a focus on the 3-point shot.

    In desperate need of a fresh start when the trade was made, Dunleavy now has a second in nine months.
    "I felt like midseason last year during the trade, that was my fresh start," he said. "But for this team and this organization, hopefully we can have kind of a new beginning, put things in the past that are in the past and get a fresh start."

    A durable player, Dunleavy has missed no more than seven games in any of his NBA seasons. He added bulk and strength over the summer and worked to regain the consistency of his 3-point shot. After making a career-high .388 from the arc in 2004-05, he shot below 30 percent the past two seasons.

    It was widely theorized that he lost confidence because of the stream of criticism he endured while with the Warriors. Dunleavy won't cop to that excuse and O'Brien doesn’t put much stock in it, either.

    "I don't know if he lost confidence," the coach said. "He's not going to lose confidence for us, if that's an issue, because he's going to know quickly how much we believe in what he brings to this. If you're only going to use Mike as a shooter, that's just one element of the game. There's so much more he can bring to us than just shooting the ball. He's unselfish, sometimes to a fault, he's a very good and very sly defensive player, so he's going to be a stat-sheet stuffer, I think."

    More than any statistical goal, however, Dunleavy is fueled by the motivation of wanting to prove his ability to contribute to a winner.

    "I think a lot of guys, individually, have personal challenges this year, goals – redemption, almost, you could say, in terms of the way last season finished up," he said. "Whether it be you didn't finish the season because you were injured or didn't finish the season for whatever reason, I think a lot of guys are motivated to have a good year this year individually, and I think collectively as a team that can go a long way."

    MURPHY: GOING BACK TO HIS TOUGH-GUY ROOTS
    When Murphy arrived in Indianapolis last January, Larry Bird almost needed to double-check his ID. In an effort to fit in with the more free-wheeling, open style of Nelson, Murphy had trimmed weight from his physique and fallen into some habits that could most politely be described as finesse-oriented.

    In other words, he wasn't himself.

    Though Murphy was relatively productive with the Pacers, averaging 11.1 points and 6.1 rebounds and hitting 40.9 percent of his 3-point shots, his game showed troubling signs of evolving away from its roots. This is, after all, a guy that averaged double-doubles three times in four seasons from 2002-2006 while ranking in the NBA's top six in rebounding three times.



    In his postseason meeting with Murphy, Bird sent a clear message.

    "I watched almost all his games in college (Notre Dame)," Bird said. "He's got to get back to being the mean guy I used to know and playing with a chip on his shoulder. He's very capable of having a double-double every night and I think that's his goal this year. I think he'll have an outstanding year. …

    "When he left here last summer he said he was going to dedicate himself to getting stronger and getting back to playing the way he used to."

    To suggest Murphy welcomed this particular assignment would be an understatement. He hit the weight-room hard and reported weighing a rock-solid 250 pounds, up more than 10 from last year. More importantly, he adjusted his mindset.

    Asked about Bird's request that he return to his tough-guy roots, Murphy smiled.

    "I think we'll be alright in that regard," he said. "I don't know how mean and nasty I was (in college). I guess I was pretty mean and nasty. I used to eat glass, you know?

    "I know what I'm capable of. I'm going to do all that and I'm going to be nasty and I'm going to do all that stuff. I'm looking forward to it. I really like doing that stuff because I have like a screw loose. There are not many jobs you can have where your boss wants you to be mean and nasty, so I'm excited."

    Murphy is vital to the Pacers' cause this season, not only because they needed his rebounding and interior toughness, but shooting -- a particularly valuable trait in O'Brien's system.

    "Murphy can flat-out shoot it," the coach said. "He can rebound the basketball. He has been a more effective low-post player than he showed last year. But he shot close to 40 percent from the 3-point line. To have a guy that's potentially going to start for us at the center spot, or one of the big spots, to be able to space the court really opens things up for Jermaine (O'Neal), Jamaal (Tinsley), Marquis Daniels, post-ups of Dunleavy and (Danny) Granger, so that's a very important element."

    O'Brien is Murphy's seventh coach in seven NBA seasons (following Dave Cowens, current Fever coach Brian Winters, Eric Musselman, Mike Montgomery, Nelson and Carlisle) and he relishes the thought of settling in for a long, successful and stable run. But his hunger for a first playoff trip is even stronger.

    "It's a huge motivating factor," he said. "It was difficult to watch the playoff games on TV and I know it motivated me throughout the summer."

    DIOGU: WILD-CARD READY TO BE PLAYED
    Statistical projections are nice but, frankly, Diogu's a little tired of being the subject of extrapolations. The way he sees it, this is the third season of his NBA career and it's time to get on with it.

    "I go into every year thinking I'm going to have a breakout year just by the way I work in the offseason," said the burly young forward. "I don't really take too much time off. So hopefully this will be the year, hopefully I'll get some extended minutes and that's basically what I'm looking for. I don't question if I can produce in this league because I know I can. Once I start getting consistent minutes, that's when consistent play comes.

    "I've just got to go out and show the coaching staff what I'm capable of doing, not only offensively but defensively. I have to have the complete package on both ends and know what to do in every situation so the coaching staff will be more comfortable with me."



    When the Pacers made the trade, Diogu was perceived by many to be the key because of his potential. To be sure, the Warriors weren't anxious to part with a player drafted No. 9 overall out of Arizona State in 2005 but the Pacers insisted on his inclusion.

    But Carlisle never fully accepted Diogu into the rotation, despite occasional flashes of brilliance. There was the 19-point, nine rebound game in Memphis; the 32 points and 22 rebounds in two games against San Antonio; and then the parting shots, 33 points and 15 rebounds in the final two games. In nine games when Diogu played at least 20 minutes, he averaged 14.3 points and 8.1 rebounds. It was the other 33 that left him wanting and fans mystified.

    "Last year was pretty frustrating for me," he said. "I always have big goals for myself. I work hard in the offseason. I just got caught in the shuffle last year so it was tough. It's a new start. I think they have big plans for me here this year so we've just got to see what happens."

    Diogu's fourth coach in three seasons, O'Brien appears to have big plans for the somewhat undersized power forward. At 6-8, Diogu must show he can hold his own defensively against bigger players. He already has demonstrated that he knows how to use his unusually long arms and thickly muscled 250-pound torso on offense.

    "Ike, I studied more on tape because he didn't get the type of playing time in the East where I particularly concentrated on him," said O'Brien. "But what I saw about Ike is he can run. I was really surprised when we worked out this summer at how well he shoots the ball and with the range he shoots it. He's very skilled in the low-post from the standpoint of his moves and you love people like Ike and Jeff (Foster) who are what I would call diagonal rebounders. They not only rebound their side of the basket, but if the ball goes to the other side they'll go and get it. "

    This year's physical project for Diogu was to work on his quickness, to add some finesse to his powerful game. He's anxious for the opportunity to demonstrate the full range of his skills.

    "We've got a new coaching staff coming in, they say they're really excited to coach me this year," Diogu said. "I'm just going to go out there and play hard. That's what Coach O'Brien expects for you to do. He hasn't really defined roles but one thing he does expect is for everybody to go out and play hard. So I'm definitely going to do that."

    For Diogu, like Dunleavy and Murphy, this season offers yet another chance for a new start.

    What they really crave, however, is a new finish.

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    Order more copier toner. Haggard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    I would be happy to see Troy get the double double averages he put up in golden State a few seasons ago. There is no reason he shouldn't. He has lost a little toughness as of late but I expect that to change this season.

    Dun, although his stats are ok he seems to disappear on the court at times. If he can work on keeping in the game when he isn't scoring he should be alright..

    The jury is still out on Ike for me. I would like to see some of this talent which is talked about on this forum.
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    If they want to free Dunleavy from the expectations that come with a #3 pick, why do they keep harping on it? I don't think anybody in Indy cares.
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Wow, Mean and Nasty, gotta like that. Can't wait to see Murph now. What's the over/under on broken noses this year? Top 6 in rebounding and can shoot 40% from 3, how many guys bring that to the table. If he can reasonably defend...

    Also, if Dun can defend well enough and get back to 38% from downtown, 12, 6 and 3 are really pretty good from your 2 guard. Obie talking about him and Murphy posting up is troubling, both are Austin Croshere like at doing that, aka horrible.

    Ike, needs 22-25 mins a night every night. Problem is, he can really only play the 4 spot. This is one of the biggest things I can't wait to see what Obie does to get him consistent minutes.
    Last edited by Speed; 10-04-2007 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    anyone else get the feeling that troy murphy is actually insane?
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    If Troy Murphy put on 10 lbs of muscle over the offseason, I'll be the happiest boy in the world.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    If Troy Murphy put on 10 lbs of muscle over the offseason, I'll be the happiest boy in the world.
    LOL........... hopefully he didn't spend any time with his cousin!

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    To suggest Murphy welcomed this particular assignment would be an understatement. He hit the weight-room hard and reported weighing a rock-solid 250 pounds, up more than 10 from last year. More importantly, he adjusted his mindset.

    Asked about Bird's request that he return to his tough-guy roots, Murphy smiled.

    "I think we'll be alright in that regard," he said. "I don't know how mean and nasty I was (in college). I guess I was pretty mean and nasty. I used to eat glass, you know?"
    This, to me, will be the biggest factor in us overachieving on my expectations going into the season. Murphy has a lot of talent. But he hasn't been playing properly for a while now. If he can, indeed, get back to eating glass, punishing people on the block and hitting threes, he can single-handedly improve our offense quite a bit.

    Murphy moreso than anyone else on our roster has a chance to play over his head and really take our frontcourt from being just deep to acutally stacked. If he can really come through and do what Bird is hoping, then it could make for a great offensive frontcourt that will really give our team an identity to hang it's hat on.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    If Troy Murphy put on 10 lbs of muscle over the offseason, I'll be the happiest boy in the world.

    Personally, it would take an extended vacation at a tropical resort
    somewhere in the South Pacific along with Jessica Alba to make me
    the happiest "boy" in the world.

    But it sure does look like things are looking up. Sounds like Murph is coming
    in beefed up and with some swagger, and that is a very good sign, for
    everyone.

    The comment he made about how he used to "eat glass" sounded almost
    Scott Pollard like.

    Things are starting to get exciting again!



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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    This, to me, will be the biggest factor in us overachieving on my expectations going into the season. Murphy has a lot of talent. But he hasn't been playing properly for a while now. If he can, indeed, get back to eating glass, punishing people on the block and hitting threes, he can single-handedly improve our offense quite a bit.

    Murphy moreso than anyone else on our roster has a chance to play over his head and really take our frontcourt from being just deep to acutally stacked. If he can really come through and do what Bird is hoping, then it could make for a great offensive frontcourt that will really give our team an identity to hang it's hat on.
    agreed. i remember watching murphy 2-3 years ago in GS and he was an absolute beast. he would snatch any board in sight - didn't matter who he had to go through to get it. on top of that, he can nail a three at 40%. that combination is rare in a big man.

    if he can get back to that mentality, JO & Jeff can stay relatively healthy, and Danny, Shawne, & Ike continue to make strides, we could easily have a top 5 frontcourt. i think all of those are very possible.

    the backcourt is another issue. too many "ifs"

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    the backcourt is another issue. too many "ifs"
    More like too many [Darth vader] "Nooooooooooooooooooooos" [/Darth Vader]

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    My only issue with an article like this is that had the deal not been done and Jackson, Al and even Saras still been here you'd be hearing the exact same thing from O'Brien and the Pacers. Maybe "Jackson wants to end the boos" or "Harrington looks to become a team leader" or "Saras to unleash his promise under O'Brien".

    He'd like what he saw of them in whichever game in the past and would have a vision for how they were going to impact the season.

    The next time JOB or TPTB say "yeah, this guy probably isn't going to fit but you never know I suppose" let me know. That would actually be news.


    If they want to free Dunleavy from the expectations that come with a #3 pick, why do they keep harping on it? I don't think anybody in Indy cares.
    I agree. Dun had a tough enough time living up to the expectations of the trade. If he was the Pacers #3 pick from 2-3 years ago and was playing like he did last year he'd already be boo'd out of town. Or did I miss the part where Pacers fans thought Tisdale was great and wish he'd never left?

    Baby steps for Dun. Just be a quality starter that can return to reliably making a 3 from time to time.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Also, if Dun can defend well enough and get back to 38% from downtown, 12, 6 and 3 are really pretty good from your 2 guard. Obie talking about him and Murphy posting up is troubling, both are Austin Croshere like at doing that, aka horrible.
    Not taking away from your point, but the quote referred to posting up Dun and Granger, not Dun and Murph.
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by blanket View Post
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    Not taking away from your point, but the quote referred to posting up Dun and Granger, not Dun and Murph.

    Right, good call. Still Dun is horrible in the post. It would be great if he was at least adequate because it would make him be able to punish other 2 guards and even out the fact he's not a real 2. Maybe thats something he's worked on. Love to see him shoot over guys, ala Dirk.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    I really hope that we can find a way to get Ike a consistent 20 minutes a game.

    I just want to see him play.
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    I liked the fact that JOB complimented Dunleavy's defense (which I think gets unfairly critized far too often)

    I also like the term "diagonal rebounders" to describe Foster - I'm going to start using that term.


    I certainly don't miss Jax and Al and I'm happy with these three guys

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Right, good call. Still Dun is horrible in the post. It would be great if he was at least adequate because it would make him be able to punish other 2 guards and even out the fact he's not a real 2. Maybe thats something he's worked on. Love to see him shoot over guys, ala Dirk.
    If Dunleavy was ever able to demonstrate any of the stuff you just mentioned, he'd still with the Warriors right now.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Baby steps for Dun. Just be a quality starter that can return to reliably making a 3 from time to time.
    Dunleavy just needs to be a more reliable and efficient scorer, no matter how he does it.

    His shooting %s and scoring averages during his career aren't horrific, but they've always been a little bit inflated because the opposing team usually leaves him wide open and he only takes the most wide open of shots. I mean it's great that he has discerning shot selection, but the truth is that a good shooter/scorer would have a shooting % through the roof if they only took the shots that Dunleavy takes.

    He's simply got to be more of a threat to score. If you can do that, then you can really become a more effective playmaker/facilitator. It'll open up his game. That's why his assist numbers (for someone who is a good passer) are so low. Teams just sag/back off on him and he never draws double teams. It'd be great if he could use his size in the post to draw double teams, but that's another story in itself.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    I just don't see the reason for Dunleavy to have to score like that though. All he needs to do is hit those open shots. We aren't asking him to be our #3 option at this point, and I don't we should. That clear #3 is not there right now, but I feel as if someone will step it up this year to accomplish that.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    I will say this: I'm very excited to see what these guys can do. I'm definitely treating these guys as off-season acquisitions and not counting anything that they did last year. Fresh start.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    That clear #3 is not there right now, but I feel as if someone will step it up this year to accomplish that.
    Scoring Options

    1 - JO
    2 - Granger
    3 - Troy

    At least that's how it should pan out.
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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Scoring Options

    1 - JO
    2 - Granger
    3 - Troy

    At least that's how it should pan out.

    The Creating options are Tins and Marquis, thats what will make the scoring options work. That is what makes me nervous.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by Phildog View Post
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    I just don't see the reason for Dunleavy to have to score like that though. All he needs to do is hit those open shots. We aren't asking him to be our #3 option at this point, and I don't we should. That clear #3 is not there right now, but I feel as if someone will step it up this year to accomplish that.
    He has to be enough of a threat to score to make the other team respect him as much. I can't quanitify exactly how much that is, but it'll be evident if/when the other team starts respecting him. For example, he can't let opposing teams get away with guarding him with guards that are 5" shorter. He's got to punish them for that.

    If he wants to be the playmaker/facilitator that people have always envisioned him being, he has to make the opposing team respect his scoring ability. It's great that he doesn't throw the ball away or doesn't take bad shots, but that alone isn't enough to be effective in this league. He needs to give the other team something to worry about.

    One of the better posters on our board summed up Dunleavy very succinctly: Dunleavy is a smart, but often ineffective basketball player. And most of that ineffectivness stems from his inconsistent ability to score the ball.

    He has to change that.
    Last edited by d_c; 10-04-2007 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Scoring Options

    1 - JO
    2 - Granger
    3 - Troy

    At least that's how it should pan out.
    Obviously, I agree that JONeal and Granger can be the 1st and 2nd scoring options...however, when it comes to the 3rd scoring option, I think that it should be whoever has the best offensive matchup and whoever can hit that shot:

    Tinsley, Marquis, Dunleavy or Murphy

    The problem is that there isn't a clear and obvious #3 scoring option on this team. I think that we have many 3rd/4th "middle of the road" scoring options that are somewhat reliable on the team....but none that should be automatically declared the 3rd scoring option on the team. Unless any of those 4 players starts to consistently show that he is a reliable and consistent 3rd option......then whichever Starter/6th Man that is making his shots that night should be the #3 man.

    More then likely, IMHO, I think that Tinsley ( only cuz he is running the point and JO'B appears to have a huge Man-crush with him ) and/or Dunleavy will be that 3rd scoring option on a regular basis.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Trade Trio hungry for Redemption [Pacers.com]

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Scoring Options

    1 - JO
    2 - Granger
    3 - Troy

    At least that's how it should pan out.
    I think you will see Tins be the third option most of the time. Excpet for when Quis is on the floor. Troy I think will be someone that gets us to 10-12 ppg, which is nice, but I think the coaching staff would rather he focus on rebounding and defense and pick up scores when he gets the chance, but not ever really force it to him.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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