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Thread: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    I guess it is settled then. Very clearly the 6 greatest college football quarterbacks of all time are Ty Detmer, Tim Rattay, Danny Wuerffel, Chad Pennington, David Klingler, and Andre Ware. The greatest NFL QB will likely be Manning then.
    Wait, you mean no one else here thinks he's the greatest NCAA QB ever?
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Simmons spent the first half of the article talking about how shocked he is and how what the Pats did was indefensible, then the second half talking about how it's not that big of a deal, that everyone cheats, and that it will be forgotten in time.
    Yeah - I usually like Simmons but the second half of the article amounted to a, "I killed my wife but it's OK - look at what Charles Manson did!"

    Cheap rationalization.

    I'd still say dock 'em a game. I forgot who said it (think it was Tom) and the reward to the Jets is an issue but the way to get NE fans thinking different from Simmons is for the W to become an L. Kraft will have an issue with the cheating but by week 8 most fans will barely remember it - unless the Pats get to hang a nice 1-0 loss to start the season.

    You want to make Belichick accountable, do something so the fans wake up and take notice.
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    I don't think hes a great coach. He might be good, but definetely not great. You give me Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel as my coordinators with Brady as my QB and I'll deliver you a championship or two.
    Jesus, I really was tired yesterday. Reading your post with a quote of mine, I just now noticed I spelled the word "stupid" "stoopid". Oye.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Couldn't you weight their season record? Keep the standings, but at the end of the year when determining the seedings and home field advantage, dock them by 1 with whatever their record ends up being? So if they end up 13-3, treat them like they're 12-4 when seeding? Maybe to add to the sting, make them automatically lose any tie-breakers they have with any other 12-4 team.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    I don't think hes a great coach. He might be good, but definetely not great. You give me Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel as my coordinators with Brady as my QB and I'll deliver you a championship or two.
    How about 3, and the greatest 6-year run (going on 7) of the salary cap era in any salary cap sport.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    I don't think hes a great coach. He might be good, but definetely not great. You give me Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel as my coordinators with Brady as my QB and I'll deliver you a championship or two.
    Because they are both doing so well with their new teams.

    If you don't consider Belichick a top 3 coach in this league, you are extremely naive.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    This thread is almost as entertaining as Boston Sports Radio has been the last few days.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt View Post
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    This thread is almost as entertaining as Boston Sports Radio has been the last few days.
    That bad huh?
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    How about 3, and the greatest 6-year run (going on 7) of the salary cap era in any salary cap sport.
    But see this whole controversy has tarnished that. The whole mantra with the Pats was that the other team was bigger, stronger, and faster but "we can outsmart you with our coaching". Granted we don't know much at the moment, but hopefully we'll get to see how extensive and how advantageous the cheating was.

    You might be right in that the Pats and the coaches are winners that happened to cheat, but now It looks like they're cheaters that are winners because of it.
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    I love btown and natston's avatars.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    barry bonds and bill belichick are kindred spirits, they should just get it over with and mate already...
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I love btown and natston's avatars.
    They're good, but not that great...
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    barry bonds and bill belichick are kindred spirits, they should just get it over with and mate already...
    I see a disturbing MagicRat photoshop concoction in our future.....

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by naturallystoned View Post
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    They're good, but not that great...
    Well, I stole it from an email from a friend. While most might now think this puts all of my previous posts in suspicion, I like to tell myself that everyone does it so it's fine.

    Besides, my posts 3 years ago were so far and away better than everyone else's that even a little plagiarism wouldn't have made a difference in the final posting outcome.
    Last edited by btowncolt; 09-13-2007 at 01:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    "Although it remains a PD matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all moderators, aardvarks and posters. Following Mal's decision, I will have further comment."
    If you aren't plagiarizing, you aren't trying.
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    I am dying.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  17. #92

    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1


    PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Wide receiver Hines Ward suspects the New England Patriots may have had some type of inside information on the Pittsburgh Steelers before at least one of the teams' two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season.

    Ward is certain the Patriots, while known for the thoroughness of their scouting under coach Bill Belichick, had some kind of unusual help before their 24-17 upset victory in Pittsburgh in the January 2002 AFC championship game. The Patriots went on to win the first of their three Super Bowls.

    "Oh, they knew," Ward said Wednesday. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

    NFL security officers confiscated a video camera and tape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was working on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 victory on Sunday. The league has confirmed that it is investigating whether the Patriots were taping the Jets' defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.

    On Tuesday, Steelers first-year coach Mike Tomlin, who wasn't around for those AFC championship games, said "when there's smoke, there's fire" of widespread suspicion some NFL teams use spying tactics.

    The Patriots also beat the Steelers 41-27 in the January 2005 AFC championship game, though that victory was so convincing it would be difficult to pin it on cheating.

    Still, Ward said he is disappointed there are allegations that any NFL team may have resorted to spying to gain an edge.

    "You would hope that, during their run, when they were winning all their [three] Super Bowls, all that stuff wasn't going on," Ward said. "You look back in the past, and we played them in the championship games, and you kind of wonder. It seemed like they were a step ahead of us at all times, but those games are behind us. There's nothing we can do about it. You just look forward and see what the commissioner [Roger Goodell] will do."
    Ward said any team caught spying should give up high draft picks.

    "It's really hard to say [they should] forfeit games," Ward said. "Draft picks would hurt a lot of teams; take away their first or second-round pick -- that would be a stiff penalty to make sure nobody does it again."

    Steelers cornerback Deshea Townsend also felt suspicious, if only for one play he didn't identify, during one of the AFC title games.
    That led quarterback Ben Roethlisberger to joke, "If they cheated during our AFC championship game (in 2005), so we should get a Super Bowl ring."

    Roethlisberger has given little thought to the possibility the Patriots may have had an unfair advantage against Pittsburgh.
    "No, it's actually the farthest thing from my mind. I don't think it's been in the front of too many people's mind," he said.

    Pro Bowl nose tackle Casey Hampton also downplayed the cheating talk, saying scouting is so through in the NFL that it's difficult to fool any team.
    "In this league, everybody knows what everybody's going to run. It's just a matter of stopping it," he said. "The bottom line is you watch enough film and you know where guys are and where they're coming from."

    Dick Hoak, the NFL's most tenured assistant coach before retiring this year after 35 seasons, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the Steelers once received a suspicious video tape by mistake from an opposing team during a routine tape exchange.

    The tape focused on a coach making hand signals from the sideline, Hoak said, but the Steelers did not report the tape to the NFL.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  18. #93

    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Good article by SI's Dr. Z. Hard to find someone that loves football and cares less about individual teams than him.....(stupid font, go back to normal......)




    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

    Smooth criminals

    Patriots bring cheating in the NFL into modern era

    Posted: Thursday September 13, 2007 12:42PM; Updated: Thursday September 13, 2007 1:04PM



    Sure, people cheat in sports. In baseball they steal signals. In football they bring in a guy for a week, someone who was just cut by the team they're going to play, pump him for information and let him go on Monday. They'll even plant spies at each other's practices.


    But the things that make this Patriots flap so bothersome are the following:
    • The arrogance of the organization, the smugness. We are the greatest, with the greatest coach, a genius, etc. What other team ever had its owner, Bob Kraft in this case, take the Super Bowl trophy overseas in the name of world peace. What'll he take this year, the videos of the defensive signals?


    • The fact that this is nothing new. Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with this club.


    • Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.
    Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.


    "You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."


    "At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.


    "Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."
    Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.


    "Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."


    Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.


    "We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."


    He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.
    The stories are all coming out now, but why hadn't all this been reported to the league office before this?


    "At the time, you never know for sure," Millen said. "And if you don't know it at the time, then you don't feel right reporting it later."


    As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?


    "He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."


    I asked the former Patriot, who knows the organization well, if Mangini could in any way be held responsible for being part of a system that encouraged cheating. He paused for a moment to decide how to get this right.


    "You have to understand that organization," he said. "You have to understand how incredibly tight the ring is. Information is not just passed around. Even if you might be aware of something, you're not going to know exactly how everything works. Eric was an employee there. He was not privy to every decision. His own operation was clean. Sure, he knew other stuff was going on, but how was he supposed to handle it?


    "The amazing thing is the incredible arrogance they showed, coming into Giants Stadium, facing an organization with all those ex-Patriots employees, and still trying to cheat."


    Here's a hard question. How tainted does Tom Brady now become, as the quarterback who was the recipient of stolen goods?


    "That's a tough one," my source said. "Tom also is an employee there. He does what he's told. I'll say this about Tom Brady. Not only is he an employee, but he's a damn good quarterback and a fine person."
    Everyone is secretly enjoying seeing the mighty Patriots being brought to earth.


    "Irony, that's what my father loved best," said Art Rooney Jr., the Steelers' former player personnel director. "This would have been perfect for him."


    Just as much fun is speculating about the severity of the penalty the league will issue, from a slap on the wrist -- such as a fine -- to a loss of draft choices, to a punishment in the old style. How does a public flogging and some time in the stocks sound?


    "What the league ought to do," Raiders owner Al Davis once said about an earlier infraction, "is create its own jailhouse, the Official NFL Prison, out in the Mojave desert somewhere, like Barstow. Then if someone is really guilty of something, they can say, 'OK, two weeks in the joint for you.'"
    Davis once was considered the king of the cheaters. As a beat reporter covering the Jets, my trips to Oakland were like a journey to a war zone. One widely believed story was that the visiting teams' locker room was bugged.


    "Nah, I don't believe that," said Ron Wolf, who was Davis' personnel man for a number of years. "I mean what would he really find out? But there was a feeling around the place that all the offices were bugged."
    Then there was the suspicion that the field, which was below sea level to begin with, was secretly watered to slow down the speed teams. That one never was proved, either, but on one Saturday, when the Jets were going through their workout, a maintenance crew started rolling a tarp across the Oakland Coliseum field.


    "Take one more step," defensive coach Walt Michaels said, raising his cleats, "and I'll punch a hundred holes in this thing." The workmen backed off.

    And some years later, when Michaels was the Jets' head coach, his team was facing the Raiders in a playoff game in Oakland. At halftime a goofy fan somehow got through to Michaels on the Jets' locker room phone.
    "I knew who it was and his name was Al Davis," was the way the coach began his postgame press conference.


    Then there was the trip -- when Joe Willie was the Jets quarterback -- during which the Jets found some extra company on their bus from practice to the hotel, the Edgewater Hyatt in Oakland. I was sitting up front, talking to Weeb Ewbank. All of a sudden the coach's face froze. His jaw started quivering in anger.


    "Schleicher ... Schleicher," he growled. "Damn you Schleicher, get off this bus. Driver, stop the bus!"


    Sitting in the seat right across the aisle from me was gigantic Maury Schleicher, an ex-Chargers linebacker, one of Al's boys. He had planted him on the Jets' bus.


    "Weeb, we're right in the middle of the highway," he pleaded.
    "Off, get off! Now!"


    My last vision of Maury Schleicher was him standing by the side of Route 17, trying to thumb a ride.


    "Coaches get paranoid," Rooney said. "Chuck Noll always used to worry that the other team had spies in the crowd at our training camp. So he took the numbers off all the rookies. I'd say to him, 'Coach, I'm not going to know who they are.' He'd say, 'Nah, we know all those guys.'
    "I swear, there were times when I think we kept the wrong player."


    Still unanswered in this controversy is the question of how the Patriots' videotaping system really worked. The cameraman, whose name is Matt Estrella, would have had to have worked fast, recording hand signals and matching them with his own down and distance comments, which were recorded, thereby establishing a little glossary before they could be used. Then, after he'd gotten the signal, he'd have to make contact with the offensive coach, who would have to get the message to the quarterback, all in the space between plays.


    "You have to wonder how much all this really would help," Millen says. "If you've done your film study, you should have a pretty good idea, from the personnel on the field and the tendencies they've shown, what they're going to be in."


    "What it does," said our ex-Patriots source, "is give the other team extra work, and as I said, that creates a playing field that's not level for both teams."


    The Jets beat the Patriots with an exotic blitz package in their first meeting last season. In the next game, New England attacked it by going with a no-huddle, which, combined with the Jets' concern about running their dummy signals, put an undue strain on the New York defense. This time New England went with a maximum security package to control the feared blitzes.


    Max security was brought about in most dramatic fashion by the old Greatest Show, the St. Louis Rams, coordinated by Martz. It was, in fact, my favorite play that this high-powered offense ran. Bring in the big guys, 290-pound tight end Manumaleuna, and 270-pound fullback Hodgins, build a wall around Kurt Warner, send only two guys out, Bruce and Holt, each running like hell downfield, and, fortified by plenty of time to throw the ball, let 'er fly. Never mind how many people were covering downfield. A real schoolyard play, but terrific to watch.


    And that's what New England had prepared for the Jets. They loaded up with 280-pound tight end Kyle Brady or 330-pound extra tackle Ryan O'Callaghan, gave Brady an hour to throw the ball, which also allowed his receivers to clear any kind of coverage. What does the defense do in a situation like this? Well, Arizona beat the Giants one year by outguessing them when they max-protected. Rather than wasting blitzers on a wall like that, the Cardinals rushed fewer people and dropped everyone into coverage and had them popping up in odd lanes -- two receivers, in other words, trying to beat the coverage of eight people. Warner, who was the Giants' QB in those days, and his receivers were overmatched. The Patriots weren't because they had Randy Moss.


    The showpiece play of the day was his 51-yard TD, which has been described as a one-man pattern, although there probably was some minimal action taking place on the other side. It was a freak play. Moss blew by a half-hearted bump by rookie corner Darrelle Revis and ran a gliding, meandering, crossing pattern that took a while to develop -- past LB Jonathan Vilma, who said a quick hello and goodbye, past safety Erik Coleman, who got a good look at the number on Moss' back, past the corner on the other side, David Barrett, who came over to see what all the excitement was about, and in for six. To old subway riders it was like the A train on the express track between 59th and 125th ... past 72nd, click, past 81st, click, 86th, click ...


    Was this the result of sign-stealing? Maybe that's what the Patriots will argue about when they face Sheriff Goodell, that this was just normal, not abnormal, strategy, and spectacular individual effort.


    Everyone has stories about picking up tips and hints. Mike Reinfeldt, who's now the Titans' GM, once figured out the Bengals' run or pass tendencies when he was a Raiders safetyman.


    "He told me," Ron Wolf said, "that he could tell by the way Bob Trumpy, their tight end, put his hand on the ground before the snap. He could see by the pressure."


    Once I was involved in one of these things myself. I covered Houston's victory over San Diego in the 1979 Divisional Playoff. An Oilers safetyman named Vernon Perry intercepted four Dan Fouts passes that afternoon, and my story was that Houston had stolen the Chargers signals. A Cincinnati writer ripped me to shreds in print, saying that I'd gotten together with Houston's defensive coordinator Eddie Biles and cooked up the story in an effort to get the head coaching job for Biles.


    Actually it was Gregg Bingham, an Oilers linebacker, who had told me about it, in the locker room, without spelling out how it worked. I found out when I ran into Bingham in a bar in the off-season.


    "Very simple," he said. "We read Fouts' feet before the snap. When they were square, he would hand off on a running play. When one was behind the other, it was going to be a pass. Worked every time."


    A simpler era. A happier one. No fancy electronics. No white collar NFL crime.

  19. #94

    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Douches. That whole organization.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    Because they are both doing so well with their new teams.

    If you don't consider Belichick a top 3 coach in this league, you are extremely naive.
    Haven't we learned many times before that some guys are perfect for the backseat?

    Romeo is doing awful in Cleveland, but so did Bill, so what's the difference? Bill was actually ran out of the city.

    Charlie is trying to win with Ty's last recruited players, all of whom suck to the tenth degree. He's landed one of the best recruiting classes, and continues to sign big name players. The jury isn't even close to giving a decision on the job he's doing.

    But whatever, neither matters. Some people are coordinators, and great ones at that, but can't run their own team worth a lick.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But whatever, neither matters. Some people are coordinators, and great ones at that, but can't run their own team worth a lick.


    That is a great point. And look at our own Tom Moore, for example.

    Brilliant offensive coordinator. Would he make a great head coach? I really don't know. I doubt he would be as effective a head coach as he is brilliant offensive coordinator.

    Romeo and Weiss were great in NE. And I think Weiss will be fine at ND.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-13-2007 at 03:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by naturallystoned View Post
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    If you aren't plagiarizing, you aren't trying.

    You stole motto.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    Because they are both doing so well with their new teams.

    If you don't consider Belichick a top 3 coach in this league, you are extremely naive.
    Because being a great coordinator automatically means being a great head coach.

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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    Because being a great coordinator automatically means being a great head coach.
    Who said anything about great?

    They aren't even average at this point in time. I agree that the jury is still out on both of them, but don't use them as the main references as to why we won 3 SBs. If you haven't noticed, the Pats have been fine without them. We've had a depleted secondary overachieve for the past 2 years and we had one of the worst WR tandems in the league last year look pretty good...and thats mainly due to Belichick. You can't deny Belichick is a great coach. And whether you like it or not, he will be going into the hall of fame when he retires.
    Last edited by Moses; 09-13-2007 at 06:25 PM.

  25. #100
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    Default Re: Pats suspected of stealing Jets' signals

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    You stole motto.
    If it makes you feel better, probably stole the motto first.

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