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Thread: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I don't want to get too far into this - IMO there's also a big difference between doing something systematically and regularly and in the heat of the moment too.

    A lot of it has to do with what does a person objectify? There are a lot of animals most of us consider objects - tools with a purpose to somehow help us or enhance our lives. The chicken we buy at KFC or the hamburger we get at Burger King.

    I used to rodeo and train horses for a living and to me those animals were objects. You weren't deliberately cruel to them but at the same time they were objects with a purpose - if you didn't feel that way then the odd calf that hit a rope wrong and broke its neck in practice would drive you out of the sport. And if you're racing horses the chances of an animal breaking a leg is much greater if he's running with everything he has on the track instead of with his head down in a pasture. Plus it would be pretty tough to sell a horse if you let yourself get emotionally attached to it. Interestingly, now that I'm not in the business and just have horses to trail ride my emotional attachment has increased a bunch - don't have to worry about selling them.

    Dogs (and cats for a lot of people) are different for many of us - they're more a member of our family so when things are done to them we're more offended.

    So while I don't know exactly what goes on in Vick's head, the mere fact that he fought dogs doesn't automatically qualify him as 100% reprehensible. I have a harder time getting past drowning or hanging a dog rather than just shooting it in the head since that is unnecessarily cruel and indicates deriving pleasure from something else's pain. But the simple fact that he viewed dogs as property - something to be owned and used purely for his benefit - doesn't in and of itself make him sub-Human.

    Of course dog fighting is illegal and we're a nation of laws but whether he feels himself above the law or not is another issue.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  2. #27

    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Killing humans
    --
    Killing animals
    Hurting humans
    Hurting animals
    Hicks, the law disagrees with you.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    Hicks, the law disagrees with you.
    That's fine. As I said, there's a ton of exceptions to this extremely general rule of thumb.

  4. #29
    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I think Vick will be back in the NFL after he spends a couple years in prison, and another year working out physically and repairing what little reputation he has left. I hope he turns things around and tries to redeem himself of what he has done. He will spend his time in jail, and hopefully he will try and right some wrongs by donating some serious cash to PETA as well as other animal friendly organizations.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    He's not going to have millions to donate and if PR people want to take on PETA - uh, good luck to that.
    He doesn't have to give back any money from his endorsement deals, so he has whatever he has banked to fall back on.

    I'm only saying what a major sports agent was saying he would do if Vick was his client. Seeing how he is in the business and knows the interworkings a hell of a lot better than 99% of the population, I would take his word over most.

    He was actually breaking down the percentages of his contract and how much he would owe back to the Falcons and such. He was a very knowledgeable guest on what's left of the Dan Patrick Show.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I have to agree that this was not killing a person, but I would put it right below in some fashion. Not the act itself, but the pre-planning and coordination and thought it took. This was not an impulsive act.

    I have to disagree with the breed of dog setreotyping because I have been around and raised pit bull pups and have never been even bitten by one of them. They are a lot like children and if you raise them in a proper environment they tend to do well, like other big dogs. In my experience, our German Shephards have been more aggressive than our pit bulls.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Vick doesn't deserve the NFL.

    Vick found Jesus today he said in a statement, today.
    Super Bowl XLI Champions
    2000 Eastern Conference Champions





  8. #33
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Will I find Jesus if I kill 6-8 dogs and play a role in the death of more while promoting dog fighting?

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I would rank it: (Being extremely general; there are many exceptions to this simplistic rule/rank)

    Killing humans
    --
    Killing animals
    Hurting humans
    Hurting animals
    Beef, it's what's for dinner?
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Will I find Jesus if I kill 6-8 dogs and play a role in the death of more while promoting dog fighting?
    In general, and as a Christian, I'm highly skeptical when people have these "come to Jesus" moments in this kind of a situation. But watch the video here:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2992890

    I'm not saying he still shouldn't get the book thrown at him: he should. But having done some terrible things, that's the right way to go about handling yourself.
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    When we were discussing making some zoning ordinance amendments re animal control I had a discussion with a very credible local dog owner/kennel operator who said that white Pit Bulls have some sort of genetic marker which makes them prone to violence for no reason - even against family members they've had contact with for years. She said other pit bulls aren't like that and for them (and all other dogs) you can predict their behavior based on training and environment but for white Pit Bulls you can't.

    There are certain genetic anomalies that are linked to color of the haircoat
    such as white/deafness. This is not always true however. I have never heard
    of this particular anomaly and doubt it is true but plausable. It is much more
    likely that it is a general breed characteristic.
    {o,o}
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    In general, and as a Christian, I'm highly skeptical when people have these "come to Jesus" moments in this kind of a situation.
    Fear can do that to you.

    The question is if he tells Jesus to hit the road when he isn't afraid any more. We won't know that for a while.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  13. #38

    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Beef, it's what's for dinner?
    That reminds me of a bit that Denis Leary did...
    Quote Originally Posted by Denis Leary
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    I have a dog. I love my dog. You guys have pets. You love your pets and they love you. You know why? Because you have the food. It's as simple as that.
    We love to talk to our pets. "Come here, doggy. Come here. Sit. Give me the paw. Okay, roll over. Oh, look at him. He's so cute; he's almost human." There's the problem, right? We have these little cute pangs in our bellies because we're human beings. That's how we decide which animals to save. It's all a matter of how cute they are. (Gazing longingly into distance) "Oh, look at the baby seals with the big brown eyes and the furry little fur. Don't do anything to them. Leave them alone." (Gazing off to the side with a healthy thirst) "But the cows are big and dumb and stupid. ***** them. Let's eat them all. C'mon. Let's make jackets out of what's left over. C'mon." We might as well just have animal auditions and line them up one by one and judge them individually.
    "What are you?"
    "I'm an otter."
    "And what do you do?"
    "I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands."
    "You're free to go." (Gives the otter the thumbs-up sign, turns back)
    "And what are you?"
    "I'm a cow."
    "Get in the *****in' truck, okay, pal?"
    "But I'm an animal."
    "You're a baseball glove."
    "I'm an animal."
    "You're a hat. Get on that truck. You cow. What do you think we called you a 'cow' for?"
    .....
    "Here's what sums up the animal rights movement to me. You've all heard this one, haven't you? (Walking to lip of stage in tears) "Don't eat the tuna fish." Why? (Crying) "Dolphins are getting stuck in the nets!" "But what about the tuna fish?" (Recovering) "Well, ***** them. They taste good. They never had their own TV show, for crissake. They never swam next to our boats and made cute little sounds. Get out of here, tuna fish. I'm gonna make a sandwich out of you. You cute little dolphin. Tuna fish never had their own football team. I love the little dolphin. (Petting him) I love the little Dan Marino dolphin, man."
    Funny stuff, just wanted to share.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

  14. #39
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Fear can do that to you.

    The question is if he tells Jesus to hit the road when he isn't afraid any more. We won't know that for a while.
    No doubt.

    Watch the video, though. If I ever screw up badly, I hope I can man up in public like Vick did there. He didn't have to do that.

    And I'm not saying he shouldn't still be heavily punished.
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  15. #40
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Will I find Jesus if I kill 6-8 dogs and play a role in the death of more while promoting dog fighting?

    Michael Vick sounds sincere. If he can find Jesus through the drowning of 6-8 Pitbulls, why can't I? So I'm saving up and collecting for my "Find Jesus Like Vick" foundation if any of you guys want to donate, and help me get Saved please donate via paypal or if you see any Pitbulls at the Dog Shelter please adopt them for me.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I must be the only one who didn't feel he was sincere yesterday. I didn't buy it.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I'm probably too jaded. Sat in too many courtrooms and listened to too many people apologize for what they've done when once they leave they go right back to the same behavior again (and in some cases are still doing it but haven't gotten caught). He does sound sincere but it's hard for me to distinguish if he's really sorry or if it's the old, "I'm sorry my nuts are in a vice and society has the chance to give it a few more turns."

    But sometimes they really are sorry. It'll just take some time to find out.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  18. #43
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Matthew 13
    The Parable of the Sower
    1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."

    10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

    11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
    "Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
    " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    15For this people's heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

    18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  19. #44
    USS Jonas Ingram DD 938 cactusjack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I must be jaded, too. All I heard was the well orchestrated opening salvo of the campaign to rehabilitate Vick's image.
    Life's a piece of ******
    When you look at it
    Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
    You'll see it's all a show
    Keep 'em laughing as you go
    Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
    ------- Eric Idle

  20. #45
    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I agree Cactus Jack.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    This is a very touchy subject and there are many different avenues of thought relating to it. One thing that bothers me however is that for some reason the idea that an animal being killed (needlessly) is not as bad as the same thing happening to a human.

    All creatures have as much right to life as do humans. Now we're all humans, so obviously human beings generally feel stronger about the death of another human as it's "our" species. However, we have no more of a right to life than does any other creature.

    Yes, we eat meat and use the bodies of animals for other products, but I'm talking about needless death here. Humans are the most dominant species on earth and nature dictates that the strong survive. That's just the way it is. However, the torture and death of animals in relation to sport and entertainment is needless.

    I know a lot of people may disagree or even be offended by my point of view, but I don't see how we as humans are any more "important" or valuable than any animal.

    Vick in my mind is a murderer, just the same as someone who kills another human being. Animals feel fear and pain just like humans.

  22. #47
    Member BoomBaby31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    I have so much to write on this issue. My views could be different then some but that's life, right. One I don't understand, and I'm looking at an open mind and am researching, how and why is Race an issue in this case? The whole singing of old Negro Tunes outside the court house is a little much, you would think it was 1950 outside an Atlanta court room of a falsely accused black man. Here we have a guy admitting to guilt in 2007, and accepting a plea deal for a shorten sentence. It is probably the media just wanting to dramatize the situation and have everyone riled up. Second, yes this man killed dogs it is horrible but Humans are superior to animals. I'm not justifying what he done, it's like shooting a deer and not eating it. It is wrong what he did and he should be punished not 8 years but a punishment yes. I keep hearing and reading they "rescued" all of those dogs that were in the home. No they didn't "rescue" them, you can't adopt dogs bred to fight. So you know what that means, 20+ dogs due for lethal injection. So the Doctor sticking the needle in those animals just killed dogs just like Vick did. Again, it's other peoples business but he is killing dogs just like Vick did, the only thing it's socially accepted. If the world is so disapproving of killing Dogs, in every city a dog is being "put to sleep/euthanized" today. My final input is Michael did Kill dogs but, where is all of the Hype about PacMan Jones he had his friend jump out from behind a tree and shoot a bouncer. He literally looked the bouncer in eyes and told him he was to die tonight and he was going to kill him. That is WWWAAYYY worse then killing dogs to me. Vicks deal is big but just not this big, not worth bringing up the racial diversity issue. Again, read this for what it is and don't think i'm defending Vick because I'm not the situation has many holes and is being blown out of portion both through the media and non issue related matter.
    Last edited by BoomBaby31; 08-28-2007 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    BB31: I disagree with some of your opinions regarding the severity of Vick's crime, but that's an opinion and I respect that. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    The hole in your argument is when you say that the veterinarians euthanizing these dogs are doing the same thing as Vick. Totally different. A) They're being put-down because of what was done to them by Vick and his associates, not simply for no reason like Vick. B) Animals are usually euthanized due to injury or suffering and it's done humanely. Vick was taking (most likely) perfectly healthy dogs and making them suffer an agonizing death.

    This rubbish about these dogs being naturally violent - give me a break! Yes they were originally bred to be more aggressive, but if they are brought up in a nurturing, caring manner, they are quite capable of living as pets in society.

    Those dogs were rescued - from a horrible death.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    . I have a harder time getting past drowning or hanging a dog rather than just shooting it in the head since that is unnecessarily cruel and indicates deriving pleasure from something else's pain. But the simple fact that he viewed dogs as property - something to be owned and used purely for his benefit - doesn't in and of itself make him sub-Human.

    Two very important points here. At this time animals are viewed as property by the law. More importantly is the torture and the sadistic way that Vick
    killed the dogs. DK is right about Vick deriving pleasure from this.
    Studies have shown a link in many serial killers lives of first torturing animals.
    This behavior must be identified early and dealt with via counseling. It
    indicates a deep emotional problem.
    {o,o}
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  25. #50
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    No doubt.

    Watch the video, though. If I ever screw up badly, I hope I can man up in public like Vick did there. He didn't have to do that.

    And I'm not saying he shouldn't still be heavily punished.
    I agree. But I have to think that it's the fear of jail and losing his job that drove him to that sincerity, not a sudden understanding of how cruel his treatment of those dogs was. Whatever, it was a remarkable difference from the stock, pre-written crap apologies most athletes give. Just not sure it's anywhere near enough to begin the process for Vick, he may have gone beyond forgiveness in my mind. Obviously he will get another job and keep a bunch of fans, apparently just because he's black. I mean did I miss where these same groups were outside Donoghy's house protesting in his defense? TD is already out of a job FOR LIFE, no return.



    You know there are cows killed for meat and then there's bullfighting. Hunters don't typically catch a deer and then force it to fight other deer over and over till they've tired of it and then hang it and then drown it when the hanging goes wrong.

    A good hunter very intentionally wants to take the animal down with one shot and limited pain/fear. Animals aren't people but we do recognize some levels of similarity and try to respect them on that level.

    I mean Leary is right about the double standard but I think most people want to avoid it as much as possible. An animal injured in a physically demanding but not directly violent sport is not the same as forced cage matches to the death. A deer shot and killed instantly during hunting season is not the same either.

    When people hear about the situations at some farms it does bother them. Eating a chicken is fine but there is no reason to torture it beforehand.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 08-29-2007 at 02:50 AM.

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