Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_070803.html

    Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

    Aug. 3, 2007
    With Kevin Garnett off the market, more attention may shift to Jermaine O'Neal because he is perceived to be the most prominent name available. There's talk the Lakers, in the unending quest to make Kobe Bryant happy, will rekindle their pursuit. There's been some thought the Nets will reconsider what appears to be a decision to stick with the current roster.

    So far, that's all speculation. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh has seen no increase in actual activity since the Garnett trade.

    "The Boston-Minnesota trade was being talked about before the draft, during the draft and obviously after the draft," he said. "There were a lot of teams that were interested in a player like Kevin Garnett. Most of those teams fell by the wayside early in the process and that's what made this Boston-Minnesota trade somewhat of a surprise.

    "There may be one or two teams that felt they had a chance to get Garnett that will continue to search for that kind of trade but there's really no way of knowing that. So it's really up in the air as to whether this is going to shake loose teams that are going to continue to search for major trades – but it's a possibility."

    Of course, O'Neal's availability likewise has been an assumption.

    "It's a similar situation to where it is every year," Walsh said. "You'll talk about every player on your team but whether you're going to do something or not depends on how good the trade is and whether it makes you a better team.

    "There are very, very few trades that involve players of the caliber of Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, LeBron James, etc. They're few and far between."


    CELTICS BETTER BUT EAST NOT THAT DIFFERENT
    Boston has thrust itself into the playoff picture in the Eastern Conference, without question.

    Beyond that, however, what really has changed? There's been so much discussion of a shifting balance of power in the East, I'm feeling a bit wobbly.

    With Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen joining Paul Pierce, the Celtics have a formidable trio that should certainly assure a reversal of fortunes in Boston. Of course, there is that small matter of the league requiring five players on the court at any given time, but that's Doc Rivers' problem.

    Some have decided to ordain the Knicks contenders because of the Zach Randolph deal and the deletion of Steve Francis from the overcrowded backcourt. Others believe the Knicks simply traded a problem at guard for the same problem in the post. Will Randolph and Eddy Curry fit together any better than Francis and Stephon Marbury?

    Orlando should be better with Rashard Lewis but that team always seems to make more headlines in summer than winter. Aside from the headline deals, the vast majority of moves have fallen into the category of tweaks, not overhauls.

    "After all these trades are done, it always comes back to the same place and that is: how do all these teams come together, and what effect did trades or whatever have on each team?" said Walsh. "We changed coaches. What effect will that have? Each team has something that they're hoping lifts them up from where they were last year and that's what makes this year, in my mind, really exciting.

    "You may now pick Boston to win the East, but it isn't like picking San Antonio to win the West. It's all up for grabs still, but they're in a better position than they were before the trades. And some of the Eastern teams have made what look like improvements on paper but you have to look at how it affects the way they'll play, the chemistry they have, all of it.

    "It's always been humorous to me how in August there's this rush of articles after trades that declare who's now going to win. The interesting thing is that nobody really keeps track of those articles to see what happened."


    CROSHERE JOINS EX-TEAMMATES WITH WARRIORS
    After one remarkably odd season in Dallas, Austin Croshere has found comfort in more familiar surroundings by signing with Golden State.

    The Warriors' executive vice president is Chris Mullin, Croshere's teammate his first three seasons with the Pacers. Golden State also has ex-Pacers Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson and Sarunas Jasikevicius. And Croshere was a senior at Crossroads High in Santa Monica, Calif., when Warriors point guard Baron Davis was a freshman.

    Croshere averaged just 11.9 minutes, 3.7 points and 3.0 rebounds in Dallas, shooting an uncharacteristic 28.6 percent from the 3-point line. He signed a reported one-year deal for the league minimum

    “We’re very happy to add Austin to our roster,” said Mullin. “He provides another veteran presence on our team and we feel that he is someone who will be able to come in and make a contribution.”


    PERSON LANDS ON HIS FEET WITH KINGS
    With Chuck Person's hiring as an assistant to Reggie Theus in Sacramento, all of last seasons assistant coaches have found employment.

    Dan Burke and Leonard Perry remained with the Pacers, while Johnny Davis (Memphis) and Chad Forcier (San Antonio) signed on with other teams.

    "Chuck, who has built a strong coaching career in the league thus far, comes highly recommended by people within the league who I respect tremendously," Theus said.

    Person also has a strong relationship with Kings forward Ron Artest, who has maintained his home in Indianapolis and frequently worked out with Person during the offseason.

  • #2
    Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

    Lol and who's gonna buy this bull?
    "To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also dream; not only plan, but also believe." - Anatole France

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

      Originally posted by Smashed_Potato View Post
      Lol and who's gonna buy this bull?
      Where's the bull**** in the article?

      It's from the Pacers FO, so obviously it's slanted that way, but it's not like he said "I'm not shopping JO" or anything like that.
      "I'll always be a part of Donnie Walsh."
      -Ron Artest, Denver Post, 12.28.05

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

        Originally posted by Smashed_Potato View Post
        Lol and who's gonna buy this bull?
        The title of the Pacer's.com article can be a bit misleading, just as are a lot of thread titles on here. All he said was he hadn't seen any increase in activity. I see nothing to proclaim bull about that.

        Of course if you had read the article and comprehended what you read you would have known that. (grin)

        I don't like misleading titles but if you put a different title then someone else will think it's a different article and post the same article.
        Last edited by Will Galen; 08-03-2007, 07:46 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

          I just don't buy it that the increased activity has been low even after the KG trade. JO is the only potential big-man superstar left on the market that can be a difference maker.
          "To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also dream; not only plan, but also believe." - Anatole France

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

            Originally posted by blanket View Post
            Where's the bull**** in the article?
            Originally posted by Will Galen View Post
            ...players of the caliber of Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, LeBron James, etc. They're few and far between."
            One of these things is not like the other...
            2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

              Originally posted by bulldog View Post
              One of these things is not like the other...
              What, he was just talking about HS'ers. Could have just as easily said Kwame Brown or Darius Miles.

              Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                Originally posted by Smashed_Potato View Post
                I just don't buy it that the increased activity has been low
                Not sure I follow. You mean you don't believe there's been increased activity since the KG trade? Is that what you're saying?

                Regardless, why would you want there to be more activity w/ people pursuing JO? Wouldn't that mean the Lakers would have competition?
                This space for rent.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                  Walsh sure is talking alot. I like how he is trying to spin the east's improvements like they make no difference. Yeah right!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re:

                    Originally posted by Will Galen View Post
                    "There are very, very few trades that involve players of the caliber of Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, LeBron James, etc. They're few and far between."
                    That is mighty high praise for Jermaine if Walsh thinks O'Neal is worth Garnett, Bryant and James.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                      I agree with Walsh. . .Somewhat a lot of teams get hyped up in the offseason cause of trades, then all of a sudden they don't make any noise in the regular season!!!m either way it's gonna be an interesting season
                      R.I.P. Bernic Mac & Isaac Hayes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                        I don't know Donnie like you guys do, but I loved his putting JO, KG, Kobe, Lebron in the same sentence. I want the Lakers to get JO, but JO is closer to Lamar Odom at this stage than to any of those 3 guys. He is a borderline allstar, top 20 NBA player. Those guys are top 10. Reading between the lines, Walsh's key comment was saying that those teams interested in KG may now shift. That says to me he is interested in listening for sure. So, what teams may be interested? Nets, Lakers, Warriors, Mavs. I see those teams as the primary possibilities. I don't see a deal with NJ or GS. Sorry, but I can't see another GS-Pacers deal. Thorn is talking like a guy who likes his roster and Jefferson is sort of redundant for the Pacers. Dallas? They would offer a package centered around Terry and Diop. There is no way that intrigues the Pacers. The Pacers biggest needs, and correct me if I am wrong Pacers fans, are size and just overall talent in the backcourt. Walsh putting JO in the same sentence with KG may insinuate he expects a similar package to KG, while still realizing KG is better. JO is the Pacers best player as KG is the Wolves franchise player. I believe the Bynum and Crittenton deal, with Brown, Cook, 2 #1s, is a deal Walsh would accept. I read yesterday Walsh's quotes about Bynum. He obviously thinks very highly of the guy, and you know both Walsh and Bird know Abdul-Jabbar well, and Kareem loves Bynum. The interesting thing about this potential deal is that their are people in the Lakers and Pacers camps that want and do not want to do the deal. Pretty much everyone in the Lakers camp is against LO/Bynum, but they are about 70% in favor of Bynum and JC. Here, I'd say about 70% do not want the JC/Bynum deal, with many of you for LO/Bynum. As I said in another note, the KG deal is the key. Bynum and Jefferson, despite Jefferson putting up pretty good numbers last year on a miserable team, is close. Green and JC? Close. As I said in the other note: The Pacers may very well choose Bynum over Jefferson, and Crittenton over Green, and Cook, Brown, 2 #1s as filler. Maybe the Lakers will only offer 1 #1 because they feel this is over-market value for JO, but if this deal will not get killed over the draft picks. It will ultimately be decided on the 3 key players: Bynum, Crittenton, JO. I still hold firm that it is 50-50 if JO is dealt. If he is dealt, I would say there is an 85% chance it is to the Lakers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                          Yeah, top 20 guys are falling off trees, top 10s are extremely rare. That comparison by Donnie makes no sense at all.


                          Sheesh, I actually don't mind people popping in to talk about the possible involvement of their team with the Pacers but this is getting annoying. YOU DON'T NEED TO CONVINCE US, none of us are going to pull this JO trigger for you.

                          You get super-PO'd because Donnie doesn't lapdog for the Lakers, you rant and rave about what's fair or not, trash JO as if that makes him more tradeable and hype what LA has as if that also makes a deal more likely.

                          Drop the ego already and try on someone else's shoes for a second. DW isn't working the LA deal trying to get more. DW is doing what the Pacers ALWAYS do, you know like every other year when you DON'T follow the Pacers offseason: he's preparing the fans for whatever decision the team has already made. There have been tons of articles dropping hints about no major deals, specifically to prime the pump and get fans in that mindset so the blowback won't be as bad. Sounds clearly like at this point both sides have no interest in what the other is offering and aren't in a hurry to change their minds. Barring a sudden change of heart get ready for no deal to come through.



                          I can't freaking wait for this summer to be over and for JO to still be a Pacer. Enjoying getting knocked out of the playoffs by New Orleans. At least LA will be a title contender in 4 years when Bynum, Crittendon and Farmar mature.

                          Indy will be stuck watching the crap that is Williams, Granger and Ike, guys who are clearly the cat's butt compared to the Lakers mega-star list of young talent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                            Originally posted by LAKERERIC View Post
                            Here, I'd say about 70% do not want the JC/Bynum deal, with many of you for LO/Bynum.

                            Green and JC? Close.
                            Boy, I'd love to have JC on the Pacers. There is no way Green is even close to him. No chance.

                            I didn't know even Jesus Christ played, but I'm sure he can hoop it up like no other!


                            Oh, you're talking about the #19 pick in the draft who hasn't done squat in the NBA yet? Sorry, the way you Laker fans go on about "JC", I figured "JC" must be Jesus Christ.

                            Never mind.
                            You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
                            All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

                            - Jimmy Buffett

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Pacers.com} Walsh Doesn’t See Domino Effect from K.G. Deal

                              Laker Eric knows very well that if LA doesn't get JO the wheels come off that franchise. That team will have mega bad chemistry and will be forced to dump Kobe. Even Hollywood Jack will offer to escort Kobe out of town. We Indy fans do not expect a greatly competitive team this year but LA people expect that every year. Eric, enjoy watching Boston go deep in the playoffs.

                              Right now the Pacers do not have to make a trade. We already made the most significant move by replacing RC.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X