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Thread: off season thoughts and ramblings

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default off season thoughts and ramblings

    It's obviously the off-season, tiresome repeats of positions, no player can do right, tptb can't do right, talents is everything and we can win a title in a few years if we just had a team of rookies and "high draft-picks".

    Please let's get rid of JO and Tinsley because with them this team is heading out of town, it will be sold because we don't sell enough tickets, we need "talent" and it will fill CFH because we would come for one!


    Aye aye my lumbago, admins need to step in top stop trolls (in the off-season no less) and to "restrict" the numbers of threads on a topic which had given us 18 threads in 3 days, all containing the same above slightly abbreviated context.


    I know there are heat-waves going around here, but hey, I stay in air-conditioned rooms when possible and drink darned cold beer when not, I do wonder about the situation in Indianapolis though.


    In my opinion (which to me is important, but I support your right to ignore it or laugh it off) there are a few different factions left at the moment, not counting the dreaming fans of other teams and of those excluding our resident enemies;

    1: The Sky is falling

    Sorry but I know an exhibition somewhere around here with some used signs of that nature, I suggest you make your own and who knows you (or your signs) will be in a museum soon as well.
    I have a hard time taking posters like that serious, and mostly when I do they agitate me, so I generally ignore them.
    This team is going nowhere, it was a lot worse then it is now when they stayed, and the company does well in general, The Pacers is just a "part" of it.

    2: We want a complete rebuilding!

    the most funny to read, definitely the most funny, drop a few vets, all stars even and get instantly better when you get "talents" and win the championship in a few years or at least contend for one.

    Logically (1 + 1 =2) IF rebuilding was the answer then all teams in the league would do that at great regularity, and hmmmmmm somewhere that drowns in logic.
    Now this "rebuild" dream is supported by stating that it will "likely" bring people back to CFH, like there are missing millions, but ok, ask yourself a few questions;

    a: Who sells most shirts, shoes and other merchandise?
    b: How many people on this board "frequent" CFH?
    c: What was last year's average?
    d: How big a percentage does this board make of that?
    e: You knowing who Bynum is, does that mean that the average fan knows who he is?
    f: Does the corporate seat holder, box holder etc want to associate with a 6
    time All Star or a "talent"?
    g: Who brings in the "real" money for the company, the corp seats or the
    bleechers fans?
    (Addendum to g; Bleecher fans are usually the "real" fans, so all respect to
    them, they carry the team, but not the bottom line.)
    f: How many "losing seasons" will it take for the corp seats to leave?

    What "we" might find attractive most likely is not that attractive from a financial point of view, i.e boxholders/corp seats buyers, as a corp seat holder you want to "invite" people to a "winner" and not a Loser or "rebuilder", people do not like to be associated with losing, certainly not in business. (exceptions only confirm general statements)


    All of that is what "sets" the price of a player like JO, main questions being: can we be competive with the replacement and can we fill the seats/sell the jerseys with his replacement.

    If those questions are answered negative then there will be no trade.

    3: Get JO (and Tinsley) out of here at all cost

    These people I can not understand, maybe their thinking is given in by huge complexes or I simply am trying to explain something that can't be explained.
    Jo is not a franchise player? OK, then the Pacers never had a franchise player and well, he is at least statistically the closest thing to it we ever had, let me list a few "stats" and feel free to hate stats.


    In 7 years he is in most top 10's of this franchise, points, percentage, fgm (not fga btw), #1 in blocked shots, high in rebounds, off reb and def rebounds, #2 in scoring avg (0.09% behind Big Mac) most All Star elections, most All NBA and the only player to get all NBA 2nd.


    That is in only 7 years, not 13 or 18, just 7.


    He has won more additional awards then any player here ever, for community service and so forth, so he has been a "model citizen"
    He has taken a high school girl to the Prom making her grades a demand for doing so, not a 5 minute appearance, a whole night.
    He is by far the best player we have and no trade except for KG would make us "improve" on that.



    And finally:
    4: Get rid of DW (and some want LB out (to))

    Yeah because DW has proven he can not do the job, loses money for the company every year and has made this team a mess with his acquisitions over the past 4 years and not firing his friend the coach.



    Reggie who is revered by JO and calls JO his best friend on the team the last 4 years, deferred way to much, yet everybody has forgotten that, made JO "leader" and "led by example" when people talk about his leadership, yet JO, the best player by far, one with a great attitude towards community, stands for values, and by far the best player on the team, works very hard, came/comes back after every off-season with an addition to his game, never complained about the coach in public, supported the coach (in public) is not an example?


    Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they write all that stuff, where they see the team, the Pacers and what goes with it, but only sometimes.

    To me every player on this team, whether I like them or not (should I choose to "dislike" someone I do not know personally) is an "Indiana Pacer", until they leave or get traded, till then I'm all for having them play at the peak of their ability and letting them know I support them.

    The number 1 rule of a trade should be that it should "improve" your team, NOW, not in (hopefully) 2 or 3 years time, without a "corporate face" in front of this team, the real money that supports this team might leave, and then we might even see the sky come down.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    3: Get JO (and Tinsley) out of here at all cost

    These people I can not understand, maybe their thinking is given in by huge complexes or I simply am trying to explain something that can't be explained.
    Jo is not a franchise player? OK, then the Pacers never had a franchise player and well, he is at least statistically the closest thing to it we ever had, let me list a few "stats" and feel free to hate stats.


    In 7 years he is in most top 10's of this franchise, points, percentage, fgm (not fga btw), #1 in blocked shots, high in rebounds, off reb and def rebounds, #2 in scoring avg (0.09% behind Big Mac) most All Star elections, most All NBA and the only player to get all NBA 2nd.


    That is in only 7 years, not 13 or 18, just 7.


    He has won more additional awards then any player here ever, for community service and so forth, so he has been a "model citizen"
    He has taken a high school girl to the Prom making her grades a demand for doing so, not a 5 minute appearance, a whole night.
    He is by far the best player we have and no trade except for KG would make us "improve" on that.
    Ummm, you didn't say anything nice about Tinsley...

    But I agree with everything. Especially about Walsh and Bird. I mean, they've made some bad moves, but really no terrible ones. The Golden State trade, well, we all (even Ajbry) thought it would work out better than it did. Also, Harrington for a pick would have been a lot easier to swallow had we taken the 6th seed or so, where everyone thought we'd be.

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Abel,

    You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001? Are all trades teams make (that are not considered bad) helpful immediately?

    Also, I just wanted to say that while I hear things behind the scenes that I do not like to hear about JO and some of his choices/actions, I thank you for reminding me of all the good that he does; it's refreshing.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Abel,

    You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001? Are all trades teams make (that are not considered bad) helpful immediately?

    Also, I just wanted to say that while I hear things behind the scenes that I do not like to hear about JO and some of his choices/actions, I thank you for reminding me of all the good that he does; it's refreshing.
    Now I was told by my parents to not answer a question with a question, but in this case the answer to the question is the answer to another question:

    How "free" were we in trading DD?

    The answer is not at all, he wanted out and made it clear publically, he thought he would get more money that way.

    DW's hand was more or less forced there and he was somewhat lucky by the outcome.

    On top of which (sorry Peck) it should be clear that no matter how good DD was, he never was of the caliber of JO in fact even on that team he was not the #1 which JO is right now.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  5. #5
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Ummm, you didn't say anything nice about Tinsley...

    But I agree with everything. Especially about Walsh and Bird. I mean, they've made some bad moves, but really no terrible ones. The Golden State trade, well, we all (even Ajbry) thought it would work out better than it did. Also, Harrington for a pick would have been a lot easier to swallow had we taken the 6th seed or so, where everyone thought we'd be.
    LOL, I have been called a fanboy over Tinsley, so I am more carefull there

    I believe that if we keep him he will be back to his rookie stats the coming year, he still averaged allmost 7 APG last year, missed very few games and played injured to many minutes because there hardly was another option, which influenced his shooting percentage, also he does not need to shoot, he can create for others, which is what he's best at.

    I can see no way we can improve on him via a trade, unless we overpay and we've done that enough the last couple of years.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    I really agree about the owners. Especially Donnie, as much good as he has done with this franchise for so long and a few shaky years (and ya know, the brawl MAYBE kinda factored into some of this instability, im just throwing it out there) and people say "FIRE ALL THE OWNERS" ----"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS" and what not. Blow it up and start from scratch!

    Every franchise goes through these bad periods and we pacer fans are spoiled by the consistent level of success we have had... ring or no ring. Im not sure if larry is to blame because I dont know who is really running the show, BUT, can we at least reserve judgement till the brawl fallout is completily finished with (which is probably about... now)

    Of course right before I read this post i made a long post about why we should trade jermaine - but only because I think it would improve the team. trading players "at all costs" is exactly what got us into a bad situation in the first place. I honestly believe Bynum will be as good or better than oneal, and well... nobody really knows. uhhhh.... I give up.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 07-17-2007 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    LOL, I have been called a fanboy over Tinsley, so I am more carefull there

    I believe that if we keep him he will be back to his rookie stats the coming year, he still averaged allmost 7 APG last year, missed very few games and played injured to many minutes because there hardly was another option, which influenced his shooting percentage, also he does not need to shoot, he can create for others, which is what he's best at.

    I can see no way we can improve on him via a trade, unless we overpay and we've done that enough the last couple of years.

    I agree here, trading tinsley for peanuts is a horrible idea. He has a lot of talent (at least that he showed his rookie year), and obie might just be able to tap into it. who knows... its worth a shot.

    thats the kind of rebuilding im against, you have to make smart moves... you dont just blow it all up and pray to win the lottery.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    I fall into category 5. The people who want to stand pat. Let the new coaching staff get going. Let the plethora of new faces over the last year and a half get to know each other on a first name basis. Then see where the team stands.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    I don't care what approach the Pacers take at this point, I just hope whatever route they choose that they do things right and make it work. Stand pat, rebuild, reload, whatever. I think any of those options CAN work if managed correctly....maybe a pinch of luck too. Commit to a vision and see it through.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    I fall under category 1, but I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be a cotton-candy guy.
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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I fall under category 1, but I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be a cotton-candy guy.

    I was gonna post a picture of the "Bad MotherF-er wallet here but thought better of it. Being im under 10 posts id probably be banned.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I fall into category 5. The people who want to stand pat. Let the new coaching staff get going. Let the plethora of new faces over the last year and a half get to know each other on a first name basis. Then see where the team stands.
    I feel the same way.


    And a very good post Able!
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    At this point I feel as if my allegiances are tied between all of the options, including the mysteriously absent #5 (the Bring Back Jack brigade).

    However, all of your points are justified but you cannot be too shocked at the varying degrees of pessimism. We've all rode together through this recent bull**** and a lot of the Pacers faithful definitely want some drastic, maybe frivolous, alterations to the team and organization.

    #3 was nicely said in particular. Any trade that does not net somebody of JO's caliber isn't going to leave this franchise in any better hands than it already is (or isn't). Potential is for losers.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    I feel the same way.


    And a very good post Able!
    Agreed on both counts.
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    It's obviously the off-season, tiresome repeats of positions, no player can do right, tptb can't do right, talents is everything and we can win a title in a few years if we just had a team of rookies and "high draft-picks".

    Please let's get rid of JO and Tinsley because with them this team is heading out of town, it will be sold because we don't sell enough tickets, we need "talent" and it will fill CFH because we would come for one!


    Aye aye my lumbago, admins need to step in top stop trolls (in the off-season no less) and to "restrict" the numbers of threads on a topic which had given us 18 threads in 3 days, all containing the same above slightly abbreviated context.


    I know there are heat-waves going around here, but hey, I stay in air-conditioned rooms when possible and drink darned cold beer when not, I do wonder about the situation in Indianapolis though.


    In my opinion (which to me is important, but I support your right to ignore it or laugh it off) there are a few different factions left at the moment, not counting the dreaming fans of other teams and of those excluding our resident enemies;

    1: The Sky is falling

    Sorry but I know an exhibition somewhere around here with some used signs of that nature, I suggest you make your own and who knows you (or your signs) will be in a museum soon as well.
    I have a hard time taking posters like that serious, and mostly when I do they agitate me, so I generally ignore them.
    This team is going nowhere, it was a lot worse then it is now when they stayed, and the company does well in general, The Pacers is just a "part" of it.

    2: We want a complete rebuilding!

    the most funny to read, definitely the most funny, drop a few vets, all stars even and get instantly better when you get "talents" and win the championship in a few years or at least contend for one.

    Logically (1 + 1 =2) IF rebuilding was the answer then all teams in the league would do that at great regularity, and hmmmmmm somewhere that drowns in logic.
    Now this "rebuild" dream is supported by stating that it will "likely" bring people back to CFH, like there are missing millions, but ok, ask yourself a few questions;

    a: Who sells most shirts, shoes and other merchandise?
    b: How many people on this board "frequent" CFH?
    c: What was last year's average?
    d: How big a percentage does this board make of that?
    e: You knowing who Bynum is, does that mean that the average fan knows who he is?
    f: Does the corporate seat holder, box holder etc want to associate with a 6
    time All Star or a "talent"?
    g: Who brings in the "real" money for the company, the corp seats or the
    bleechers fans?
    (Addendum to g; Bleecher fans are usually the "real" fans, so all respect to
    them, they carry the team, but not the bottom line.)
    f: How many "losing seasons" will it take for the corp seats to leave?

    What "we" might find attractive most likely is not that attractive from a financial point of view, i.e boxholders/corp seats buyers, as a corp seat holder you want to "invite" people to a "winner" and not a Loser or "rebuilder", people do not like to be associated with losing, certainly not in business. (exceptions only confirm general statements)


    All of that is what "sets" the price of a player like JO, main questions being: can we be competive with the replacement and can we fill the seats/sell the jerseys with his replacement.

    If those questions are answered negative then there will be no trade.

    3: Get JO (and Tinsley) out of here at all cost

    These people I can not understand, maybe their thinking is given in by huge complexes or I simply am trying to explain something that can't be explained.
    Jo is not a franchise player? OK, then the Pacers never had a franchise player and well, he is at least statistically the closest thing to it we ever had, let me list a few "stats" and feel free to hate stats.


    In 7 years he is in most top 10's of this franchise, points, percentage, fgm (not fga btw), #1 in blocked shots, high in rebounds, off reb and def rebounds, #2 in scoring avg (0.09% behind Big Mac) most All Star elections, most All NBA and the only player to get all NBA 2nd.


    That is in only 7 years, not 13 or 18, just 7.


    He has won more additional awards then any player here ever, for community service and so forth, so he has been a "model citizen"
    He has taken a high school girl to the Prom making her grades a demand for doing so, not a 5 minute appearance, a whole night.
    He is by far the best player we have and no trade except for KG would make us "improve" on that.



    And finally:
    4: Get rid of DW (and some want LB out (to))

    Yeah because DW has proven he can not do the job, loses money for the company every year and has made this team a mess with his acquisitions over the past 4 years and not firing his friend the coach.



    Reggie who is revered by JO and calls JO his best friend on the team the last 4 years, deferred way to much, yet everybody has forgotten that, made JO "leader" and "led by example" when people talk about his leadership, yet JO, the best player by far, one with a great attitude towards community, stands for values, and by far the best player on the team, works very hard, came/comes back after every off-season with an addition to his game, never complained about the coach in public, supported the coach (in public) is not an example?


    Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they write all that stuff, where they see the team, the Pacers and what goes with it, but only sometimes.

    To me every player on this team, whether I like them or not (should I choose to "dislike" someone I do not know personally) is an "Indiana Pacer", until they leave or get traded, till then I'm all for having them play at the peak of their ability and letting them know I support them.

    The number 1 rule of a trade should be that it should "improve" your team, NOW, not in (hopefully) 2 or 3 years time, without a "corporate face" in front of this team, the real money that supports this team might leave, and then we might even see the sky come down.

    Needless to say I disagree with just about every word you wrote, but you wrote them so well that I can only in response.

    No, in all seriousness it is good to have you put out a post again. I won't try and dump all over it with my own views, I'll just say that I do fall in that catagory (whatever one it is) that we need addittion by subtraction on our team.

    No, I'm not talking about dumping down talent just to try and bottom out to rise up again like a phoenix. I'm talking specifically about getting rid of Jermaine O'Neal. I would really like to see Jamaal on the first bus out of town as well but I am willing to see how he works in the new system.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    your right, rebuilding isn't the magic pill for fixing a perennial losing squad. it also takes smart management and a competent GM, neither of which your team has.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Very good post Able! That would have taken me 6 hours to write since I hunt and Peck.

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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    No, I'm not talking about dumping down talent just to try and bottom out to rise up again like a phoenix. I'm talking specifically about getting rid of Jermaine O'Neal. I would really like to see Jamaal on the first bus out of town as well but I am willing to see how he works in the new system.
    After reading Able's post we must have really had a witch hunt at the party. Guess what, yes the sky is falling and has been for three years. This team has been a wreck and I refuse to stick my head in the sand and blow sushine up my bottom.

    Able, you still get hugs though.
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    You make some terriffic points in this post, but I think you fail to acknowledge some of the legitimate arguments of the posters in the camps you describe.

    I don't know exactly which camp I would place myself in.

    I think that there is enough talent on the team that they could stand pat, win 42 games and slide in as the 7 or 8 seed in the East. They could also with a few injuries to guys like O'Neal, Tinsley, and Daniels wind up winning 25-30 games and being near the top of the lottery.

    What many people are saying is that they believe there is no way the Pacers can contend for a championship by standing pat. The logical forward projection of this roster barring a major shake-up via trade (which is possible) or free agency (not possible) is neither awful nor terribly rosy. It's the status quo. Make the playoffs as a 5-8 seed and lose in the first round. Sure the young players on the roster will develop, but our two best youngsters (Shawne & Ike) play the same postition as our two best players (Danny & JO).

    Without a significant roster shakeup, the only way the Pacers can even rise to contender status in the East is by hoping that two of Danny, Shawne, and Ike become all-star caliber players within the next couple of years or that we somehow land a big-time player in the middle of the draft. Neither of those things are really likely to happen.

    Personally, I believe that we could trade JO and still contend for a playoff spot in the East while freeing up some time for our youngsters. A good JO trade would even bring in a talented young PG who could eventually replace Tinsley.

    Your post is spot on from a business perspective, but a team that wins consistently while never legitimately competing for a title is great from a business perspective. Many fans are not satisfied with this type of model, and they have a legitimate beef.

    One last point, I think there are very few people who desire a true rebuild. The reason things are in such dire straights around here is because last season was so painful. I don't think there are too many of us who would wish 2 or 3 seasons of that upon ourselves. Personally, I know that even when the Pacers needed to lose last year to keep their pick, I'd watch and root for them to win. When I couldn't watch, I still check the scores on the internet and root for them to win.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I want the best of both worlds, and that I truly believe it's possible. I think that the Pacers organization can put a good product out on the floor with or without JO.
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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    After reading Able's post we must have really had a witch hunt at the party. Guess what, yes the sky is falling and has been for three years. This team has been a wreck and I refuse to stick my head in the sand and blow sushine up my bottom.

    Able, you still get hugs though.
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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by oneofthesedays View Post
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    your right, rebuilding isn't the magic pill for fixing a perennial losing squad. it also takes smart management and a competent GM, neither of which your team has.
    well, donnie and larry could always take pointers from the lakers' championship-winning gm... oh wait, jerry west has retired you say. who's that great gm running the lake show now?

  22. #22
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Butler for Kwame is one of the stupider trades I have seen, probably worse the the GS trade for the pacers, considering managment was in a position where they felt they HAD to trade someone (jack). yea, Kuphecks record aint nothing to shine about either, last time I checked your franchise player was demanding a trade and destroying all your leverage so...

  23. #23
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Abel,

    You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001?
    Yes, it did.



    The problem in 2001 was playing AC and Jalen Rose out of position (and perhaps playing JO out of position as well.) (But even that wasn't Isiah's fault, the roster was hopelessly unbalanced with no PG and 504 forwards.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #24
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    I don't know which camp I'm in.

    I don't want to trade JO and Tinsley.

    I don't see any moves the Pacers can make that will have us better than the Bulls in the next three seasons. And perhaps also the Cavs and Pistons, although the Cavs and Pistons have minor problems to shore up. But Orlando, Washington and Toronto don't impress me. It actually depresses me that we can't beat those teams because they really aren't very good.

    I'm somewhat excited about the new coach(es.) But not if the roster that finished last season is going to be shooting the "3".

    I don't mind Dunleavy's contract.

    Our backcourt needs serious help, so we are going to have to give up a young forward with potential to fix it. The question is, which forward?

    I don't think "talent" is the answer. I do think the masses of PD have given up on a trade for "team" players before the new players ever got a chance to mesh. I think JOB is the perfect coach for Murphy.

    I don't trust Bird and Walsh to clean up their own mess. So I guess I'm in #4. But I don't think wholesale changes are required.

    And I would have Tinsley on a very short leash. If he actually gets some trade value, I'd have no problem moving him in a transaction that brought in a starting caliber PG. Without a viable alternative, he stays.

    I don't really see how Diogu and Foster fit into what JOB has said he is going to do. For that matter, I really don't see how Bynum would, either. It seems to me that its either JO at center and make the playoffs or trade JO and make the lottery for several years. Trading JO for PP would still leave the Pacers as a lottery team.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Abel,

    You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001? Are all trades teams make (that are not considered bad) helpful immediately?

    Also, I just wanted to say that while I hear things behind the scenes that I do not like to hear about JO and some of his choices/actions, I thank you for reminding me of all the good that he does; it's refreshing.
    Contrary to some thinking, and definitely contrary to Peck's POV I'm certain , the Dale/JO trade did INSTANTLY pay off. With Rik gone there was no way that Dale was going to be the low post scoring threat that JO was even in that first year. And since JO pulled in pretty strong rebounding numbers you really didn't take that big a hit on losing Dale either.

    To me this is why I discredit some of Isiah's "magic". The fact is that by losing Jax, Rik and Dale there was some reason for concern. But by getting JO for Dale you fixed about 65% of those losses. When they drafted Tinsley (traded for the pick that is) they fixed perhaps another 20% of those issues, especially those first couple of seasons when he threw the rock around without mercy (or sometimes without concerns for turnovers).


    My stance on next season probably isn't far off of Jay's, or Dr. Goldfoot who I agree with about 95% of the time both here and back at the Star
    . I see plenty of potential for disaster and frankly I don't care if it is. I've accepted where the roster is at right now and assume that it's going to take this season to start to get things a bit untangled. For now I'll relax and let the process unfold. It's been a darn good run and I appreciate even the most recent seasons, at least until the trade when the ball really got ugly and boring.

    I mean I'm still wearing the Pacers gear, even right now. And opening night if Dun's the SG and JOB has them shoot 40 3PAs, I'm going to be rooting for Dun and hoping they make 25 of them. I won't bet on it, but I'll be wishing for it.

    My debates here are about what I expect, not what I want. I've never let expectations keep me out of the sunshiners camp for very long.




    O'Neal
    I agree that if some of the behind the scenes issues are true that it makes it frustrating to support JO. My one concern there is that there seems to be a strong disconnect between some of those stories and how he comes off in public. I mean he does do the dirty work and hustles in games as much as anyone, his transition defense attests to that as do his charges taken.

    That doesn't mesh well with the idea that he's a prima donna star who simply wants his touches. I mean wanting touches isn't a bad thing in itself, no doubt that Jordan expected to be involved as much as possible on every possession. That comes with being the best player on the team and wanting to bear the burdan of that responsibility just as easily as it comes with being a guy who just wants his scoring numbers. If JO was only giving effort in terms of FGAs then I could see this, but clearly he brings it other ways.

    And lest we forget, the dude shot 2 FTs with his left arm only while his right arm hung to the side badly injured just so he could MAYBE come back and play in that same regular season game. That's way down at the other end of the hall from selfish, past the security booth and behind the janitor's closet. It's just not even close. No one would fault a guy for letting a replacement come in and shoot the FTs at that point, but he stepped up and did it anyway.


    That's also why I stuck behind his rant in Rick's office. Two weeks into the season it was clear that full court passes and aggressive running weren't going well. 10% may not seem like much, but usually that's a pretty good sample size. Anyone could see that Tins, Jack, Al, JO and Danny weren't comfortable with running, that it looked forced and awkward. This was after a month of camp as well.

    So when JO goes in, CLOSES the door, and let's Rick know that he thinks it's a disaster and he'd like to get back to what the team does better I don't see a prima donna there either. His touches DIDN'T GO UP. He was still getting shots those first 8 games. Maybe he saw an increase of 1-2 FGAs...maybe. Again, if that's Jordan telling Phil that he wants the Bulls to go back to the triangle instead of the new motion offense, everyone praises his leadership.

    Mike Wells sits outside the office and turns it into some smarmy unprofessional outbust as if he was invited in to participate or as if JO just ranted to him rather than taking it to the coach.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-18-2007 at 06:23 PM.

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