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Thread: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

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    Default Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Back to basketball "X's and O's" today, and away from talking about personnel, salary caps, summer league, free agents, and all the other summer time filler. Today I put my coaching hat back on, and discuss some details of the Jim O'Brien offense I suspect we will see us install in the upcoming weeks and months.

    First of all, let's talk formation. This is a topic I've discussed before, but it needs explanation again to set up the rest of the topic. Since Larry Brown took over, the Pacers have had a string of coaches who believed in a 1 guard front. (Isiah was somewhat more flexible, but basically continued to play that way). What this means from a coaching perspective is that you have 1 true guard setting up your offense from the top of the floor, 2 wings, and 2 post players. This was partly the coaches personal preference I believe, but also a good use of our talent, since we had for many years a non handling 2 guard (Reggie), paired with a top notch handler and decision maker (Mark Jackson). This has continued through the Rick Carlisle era while Tinsley has taken over the role as primary ballhandler.

    Some, like myself and Jay to name a couple, have wanted more variety in our offensive scheme by playing some form of a "2 guard" front, which to me means 2 guards up top sharing ballhandling duties, 2 wings spread on each side of the floor, and one "post" player posting up on the block/midpost/high post areas. This post player wouldnt be asked to do much in terms of screening or recieving screens, his job theoretically is just to post up strong and be an offensive force, using strength to obtain and keep position.

    In Jim O'Brien, we will now see a significant shift toward a "4 out, 1 in" offensive scheme. While I think many of you have read that, and have read about our coaches philosophy on taking the three point shot, I thought it might be educational and fun to talk about some of the little things that will be involved in playing this way, and maybe talk a bit about how well we think our current personnel fits into this way of play. This thread will talk only about offense, and not any defensive issues (those will come in a later thread sometime soon).

    When you are a coach who believes in the "4 out, 1 in" scheme, you must look for and teach some basic principles, and concern yourself with some of the following questions. Those with thoughts or questions please share them with the rest of us, and hopefully we can all learn from this examination of our new system.

    1. Can our post player establish and keep low post position, and get open without a screen? This is JO we are talking about, and Ike most likely when JO isnt in the game. I was a big proponent last offseason of getting the ball to JO on the move, after screens, and playing him facing the basket some, especially in a high/low game with Harrington. (That didn't last long, much to my chagrin....we gave up way too soon on that, but thats another topic). Those days are over here in Indiana....JO will now be asked to fight for position, maintain it,and score effectively against single coverage. How will this effect the great debate of whether JO needs to lose or gain weight? How will this effect the great proclamation of JO that he doesnt want to play the 5 spot?

    2. Can our post player(s) accurately and willingly throw the ball to all 4 points on the perimeter and hit shooters in rhythm with an accurate pass?

    3.Will our post player(s) run the floor hard to establish position before the full defense is set, or will he walk up the floor too often?

    4. Can our guards penetrate into the lane and finish the play by themselves, if help never comes?

    5. Can our guards penetrate, draw the defense, and make an accurate pass to shooters on the perimeter, behind the three point line? Here is something to watch for fans, and this is a major reason why I believe O'Brien is being truthful when he claims to really like Tinsley's game: Tinsley can make this pass with either hand, and he can do it by passing the ball parallel to his body or even behind himself at an angle somewhat. This is key because in this system, shooters will often "fill" areas BEHIND a penetrating guard to balance the floor and get back defensively, so the passer needs to be able to not just pass the ball ahead of himself (to the corner in some cases, or lower wing area), but somewhat behind him to the top of the right/left wings. This is a difficult pass that some guards cannot make, and make accurately.

    6. Can our shooters take and make a high enough percentage of open, standstill 3 point shots? On these open three point standing shots (O'Brien will classify them as good shots he wants taken), we will be expected to hit about 39% of these, which I know seems high, but it will be what is expected on THESE TYPE OF THREES ONLY.

    7. Will we get good "backside" movement out of this set? This is super important when you play "4 out, 1 in" offense. What I mean is player movement on the opposite side of the floor, away from the ball. A HUGE tendency of teams playing this at the beginning is for the 2 players opposite the ball to stand and start spotting up way too soon, and to become too stationary, making it easy for their men to help and recover back to them (if they don't move, it makes them easy to find in a recovery situation for the defensive man guarding them). Trust me, this is a big coaching challenge you have to drill on alot.

    8. What will our guards do after making the first pass to start our set? I'm interested in this quite a bit actually, as nerdy as that sounds. I want to know things like if they will screen away, or cut to the ballside corner, or if they'll cut shallower than that and go to the opposite side, or whatever. Will O'Brien help JO a bit and send a guard down to screen for JO, so he doesnt have to fight as hard for position? ( A likely adjustment we will see alot I predict).

    9. Will our free throw attempts increase or decrease? I believe strongly in getting to the line and even making more free throws than your opponent attempts. I don't know if playing this way full time will help or hurt that goal. My guess is we will slash more and hopefully be in more free flowing situations, so I hope they go up, but the jury is still out. I definitley believe we will shoot alot more three point attempts than we are used to.

    10. Who will feed the post? This will be key to us, as we will need someone to get the ball to our post player, who will be being leaned on and pushed out by a heavier and bigger defender most nights. Do we have anyone who will excel at this? I'm guessing that our 2 best post feeders will actually be Shawn Williams and Troy Murphy, believe it or not, since they each have size and can see over the defense better to make a quality pass. I suspect almost all of our post feeds will be from the wing areas, instead of the high post or short corners, which I hoped for last season.

    11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, Murphy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.

    12. Is this the single most effective way we can play to utilize our current personnel? If not, do we change how we play, or do we get new players?

    13. Do we have any guards who can play the post, if we choose to play that way? I'm thinking of a lineup without JO, Ike, or Harrison in it for some reason. Can Tinsley play that role? I don't know, but I suspect he can, and I think O'Brien will use him that way much more than we suspect.

    14. Can we consistently get ball reversal once or twice a possession? This is key too, and is one reason Coach O wants to push it up quickly. You have to be able in this scheme to get the ball inside, back out, reverse the ball, drive it, and kick it out to open shooters.....everything takes time to attack this way. Our guards can't get hung up outside, our post guy has to get open on his own and recieve a pass without too much trouble from a post feeder, our post guy either has to score or get it back outside and reverse the ball, and our perimeter guys need to either spot up and make it or drive it and attack. None of this happens if you can't reverse the ball, so how well we do that will be critical.

    Lots of questions to be answered, Pacers fans. If nothing else, this new offensive scheme will be good for those of us "armchair coaches" who at least will get something different to watch. Will it work? Time only will tell.


    As always, this is just my opinion.

    Tbird
    Last edited by thunderbird1245; 07-07-2007 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.
    Nice post TBird!

    On #11, I disagree with you regarding Jeff Foster. If we play small ball, I'd think it would be essential for us to have Jeff out there with that lineup. Since small ball sometimes means a lot of long range shots are taken, we need to have the best rebounder we could possibly have out there. Also, Jeff can run better than any of our other big men which makes him even more important with a smaller lineup. Where Jeff's presence would be most important is on the defensive end, which you said you won't mention in this thread. But as nice as having a small lineup on the floor sounds, we also have to keep in mind that we have to do it while not getting out muscled on the defensive end of the floor. Keep in mind that we might be running O'Brien's offense, but we're running Harter's defense. Somehow those lineups have to come into one.

    It's sort of like what Golden State did last year. With Harrington starting at center vs the Mavs (which didn't last long), the Warriors were much quicker than the Mavs, but there wasn't anybody tall or big enough to muscle the boards and contest shots. That's when they started Biedrins. Once they did that, they still succeeded with playing small ball, and they brought the size mismatch to a minimum defensively. That's sort of the role I see Foster playing.

    I don't think Harrison has earned anything on this team. Sure last season he had his shoulder injury, but I get the idea that he isn't working too hard to become a better player. He sort of acts as if he's just along for the ride, and once it's over, it's over. He doesn't seem to be interested in a long successful career.
    Last edited by Evan_The_Dude; 07-06-2007 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    3.Will our post player(s) run the floor hard to establish position before the full defense is set, or will he walk up the floor too often?

    Great post...

    I hope that JOB's '3 second rule' applies here as well as to our PG.

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    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    First off, another great post Tbird. I enjoy reading them.
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    4. Can our guards penetrate into the lane and finish the play by themselves, if help never comes?
    I believe that we have guards that can do this. Quis is very good at getting into the paint from outside and if he can stay healthy, I expect to see a lot of this from him. Tinsley is another option for penetration.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    8. What will our guards do after making the first pass to start our set? I'm interested in this quite a bit actually, as nerdy as that sounds. I want to know things like if they will screen away, or cut to the ballside corner, or if they'll cut shallower than that and go to the opposite side, or whatever. Will O'Brien help JO a bit and send a guard down to screen for JO, so he doesnt have to fight as hard for position? ( A likely adjustment we will see alot I predict).
    Last year on my school basketball team, the coach ran a "4 out, 1 in" offense (or 4 guard offense or whatever you want to call it). Now Jim O'Brien probably doesn't run it the same way as a HS coach would, but when the player passed off the ball, there were a series of screens that followed. Depending on where the ball was, the screens varied. It really gave a lot of options and it gave opprotunities for cuts and/or open shots from long range.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    9. Will our free throw attempts increase or decrease? I believe strongly in getting to the line and even making more free throws than your opponent attempts. I don't know if playing this way full time will help or hurt that goal. My guess is we will slash more and hopefully be in more free flowing situations, so I hope they go up, but the jury is still out. I definitley believe we will shoot alot more three point attempts than we are used to.
    I can't see how they won't increase. Yes, you are less likely to get fouled if you shoot more threes (in my mind anyway). But, if we do slash and get to the basket, we should have many more shot atempts from the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, Murphy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.
    I don't think he would necessarily be better at all in this offense, but I think if he was used differently to JO and Ike when they're playing, he could prove useful. I believe that instead of using Jeff as a post up player who would just live in the paint, he could come and set screens for players around the three point line. And if you'd like to have Foster, God forbid, shoot a jump shot, it could be like a give-n-go situation. But if that were to happen I would see Jeff most likely running towards the baseline to get the pass back.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    13. Do we have any guards who can play the post, if we choose to play that way? I'm thinking of a lineup without JO, Ike, or Harrison in it for some reason. Can Tinsley play that role? I don't know, but I suspect he can, and I think O'Brien will use him that way much more than we suspect.
    I was wondering if you could elaborate on this. I wasn't quite sure what you meant. Are you saying who would be down low if we had in a lineup of say Tinsley, Quis, Dunleavy, Shawne, Danny? They wouldn't necessarily play those positions, but I just didn't know what you meant.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    12. Is this the single most effective way we can play to utilize our current personnel? If not, do we change how we play, or do we get new players?
    This is the big one for me. In Boston O'Brien had frontcourt players like Battie (as well as the usual suspects like Antoine, Pierce, Delk, etc) who could step out and hit the 3 - or at least the long 2. Are the Pacers set up that way? I just don't see how the current personnel can make that work.

    And JO's turning into a real conundrum (sp?). His best game is in the post - but if he plays in the post all the time he gets beat up. Personally, I'm not fond of him taking a bunch of 18-foot jumpers. It seems like he's on about 1 game in 3. For that game it's great but for the other 2 it kills you.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    A couple of points from the above comments:

    1. JO is a conundrum for the Pacers I believe. He needs to be quick to get down the floor and establish position quickly. On the other hand, he needs to add weight to help defend bigger players and to live with the pounding he will take playing as a solo post player in the Jim O'Brien scheme. On the one hand the Pacers would probably be open to dealing him, on the other this scheme I think possibly could open things up for him by getting him some more space to operate. Then again, can he get open on his own and hold position without recieving alot of screens? It's a tough call, and I'd love to be able to know what O'Brien is thinking about with JO.

    2. On the lineup without a traditional post player on the floor, let's just consider how we could play offensively with a lineup on the floor without JO, Ike, or Harrison. It will probably in that case look like this:

    Pg: Tinsley
    Sg: Daniels/Rush
    Wings: Dunleavy/Granger/Williams
    C: Murphy

    Ok, now Murphy isnt a low post player offensively at all, even though he has good size. Using a lineup like this, O'Brien will have to decide if he can use Tinsley as his post player (like we did years ago with Mark Jackson), or maybe Daniels. Golden State had some success using Baron Davis on the block, and years ago the Rockets (in their glory days) sometimes used Sam Cassell on the block when Hakeem was out of the game.

    Do the Pacers have a "non center" they can play inside sometimes in a "4 around 1" type offense? This remains to be seen, but it could be another reason why our new staff seems enamored with Tinsley.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    I must say the armchair coaching thread always get me going ... i personally cant wait to see how we work in a new system.

    As for J.O. in the post ... i personally think tis is as well as we can utilise him. in a 4 out - 1 in offence he will be in a better position to make a post move and score himself. This isnt the problem, in my view, offensivly it is quite possibly the best way for him to play giving his skills (he may not be quite a good enough passer but i dont think he is too bad!) ... it is defensivly against the bigger men that i believe he will struggle. He will be fighting on the post at both ends and in previous year we all know this has ended badly!

    Having said this who can we get that will do a better job. There are very few post players in the league that i believe are better suited to this style of play. Duncan is the obvious one!

    Fosters role is also incredibly hard to work out. I wonder if there is way we could utilise him so he can take the definsive loads of J.O ... We all know we cant use him as the post player that we use alone inside and that he isn't going to work as a spot shooter, however, i wonder if he could be used for things such as baseline screens and helping others create better positions while being on the weakside near the baseline at about 10 foot from the basket so he can crash the offensive boards etc.

    Maybe, just maybe, we can use him there more than anything to take the defensive responsibility off J.O ... and in turn save his body

    I also believe that Tinsley can work very well in this offense ... very much like a Tony parker PG ... although if he manages to miss so many drives as he did last year he may not be all that effective ... but it is his passing that could make him extremely effective using dribble penetration to free up other players!


    Very interesting topic ... i will continue to attempt to get my head round it, and may post later with more views.

    JMO
    'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
    Animal Farm, by George Orwell

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    A couple of points from the above comments:

    1. JO is a conundrum for the Pacers I believe. He needs to be quick to get down the floor and establish position quickly. On the other hand, he needs to add weight to help defend bigger players and to live with the pounding he will take playing as a solo post player in the Jim O'Brien scheme. On the one hand the Pacers would probably be open to dealing him, on the other this scheme I think possibly could open things up for him by getting him some more space to operate. Then again, can he get open on his own and hold position without recieving alot of screens? It's a tough call, and I'd love to be able to know what O'Brien is thinking about with JO.

    2. On the lineup without a traditional post player on the floor, let's just consider how we could play offensively with a lineup on the floor without JO, Ike, or Harrison. It will probably in that case look like this:

    Pg: Tinsley
    Sg: Daniels/Rush
    Wings: Dunleavy/Granger/Williams
    C: Murphy

    Ok, now Murphy isnt a low post player offensively at all, even though he has good size. Using a lineup like this, O'Brien will have to decide if he can use Tinsley as his post player (like we did years ago with Mark Jackson), or maybe Daniels. Golden State had some success using Baron Davis on the block, and years ago the Rockets (in their glory days) sometimes used Sam Cassell on the block when Hakeem was out of the game.

    Do the Pacers have a "non center" they can play inside sometimes in a "4 around 1" type offense? This remains to be seen, but it could be another reason why our new staff seems enamored with Tinsley.
    Say, just for argument's sake, that we got Lamar Odom. Do you think he could play center in this offense?

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by indyman37 View Post
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    Say, just for argument's sake, that we got Lamar Odom. Do you think he could play center in this offense?
    Pretty much i think my answer is an emphatic "no".

    Odom is a great fit in my opinion for Jim O'Brien's system, but not as the solo post player/center position. Odom would be a "face up 4" playing on the perimeter mostly. If acquired, he'd probably become our best post feeder and "initiator" of offense.....he'd play alot of the role of playmaker, and alot of the offense would go through him, but it would be away from the basket, not inside in the paint.

    Now, having said that, the above role is the one I see for Shawn Williams, which is why I don't really want Odom anyway. I don't want Odom here, Id rather go young if I make a deal like dumping JO and play Shawn, who I feel is a quality player, good fit, and has a high upside. If we did trade JO, I'd either have a deal in mind to spin Odom off to a 3rd team for backcourt help/elite perimeter defender, or I'd just agree to take alot of future picks and expirings instead of Odom.

    I think in an ideal world, O'Brien would have his teams based around a big, traditional, dominant center who could demand a double team and be bigger and stronger and more durable than O'Neal is. The ability to fight thru traffic before you recieve the ball, and to be able to hold ground while posting up is going to be a big challenge for JO if he stays, one which I personally can't wait to see how it all works from a coaching perspective. What adjustments O'Brien makes to help JO be effective (if any) are going to be a big thing I'm going to watch for in preseason.
    Last edited by thunderbird1245; 07-08-2007 at 12:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    Pretty much i think my answer is an emphatic "no".

    Odom is a great fit in my opinion for Jim O'Brien's system, but not as the solo post player/center position. Odom would be a "face up 4" playing on the perimeter mostly. If acquired, he'd probably become our best post feeder and "initiator" of offense.....he'd play alot of the role of playmaker, and alot of the offense would go through him, but it would be away from the basket, not inside in the paint.

    Now, having said that, the above role is the one I see for Shawn Williams, which is why I don't really want Odom anyway. I don't want Odom here, Id rather go young if I make a deal like dumping JO and play Shawn, who I feel is a quality player, good fit, and has a high upside. If we did trade JO, I'd either have a deal in mind to spin Odom off to a 3rd team for backcourt help/elite perimeter defender, or I'd just agree to take alot of future picks and expirings instead of Odom.

    I think in an ideal world, O'Brien would have his teams based around a big, traditional, dominant center who could demand a double team and be bigger and stronger and more durable than O'Neal is. The ability to fight thru traffic before you recieve the ball, and to be able to hold ground while posting up is going to be a big challenge for JO if he stays, one which I personally can't wait to see how it all works from a coaching perspective. What adjustments O'Brien makes to help JO be effective (if any) are going to be a big thing I'm going to watch for in preseason.
    sounds like you're describing Bynum....

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Thanks for the great post T-bird

    My primary thought...If odom could play the center in this offense, why couldn't Baston?

    I only checked the height/weights, Maceo gives 15lbs and 1" to Odom. Maceo can hit the three as well.

    The following has likely been covered, it has taken a while to generate, but submitted for your consideration none the less.
    #1) Yes, mostly. Does anyone else feel like Ike plays more 'deeply' for lack of a better word? JO sometimes relies on the jumper. But both are crafty enough at the post.

    #2) 1/2 the time. If JO is not very deep, does he get the ball at all. If he gets it in his jump range will he shoot it or pass? If he is not deep, then his man is already out on the perimeter to help - that bugged me last season. Ike needs to work on passing out of doubles as we saw last season - but perhaps with some shooters he would not be doubled.

    #3) Does not sound like the slow walk option is available with this type of system. Killed us last season - we did not have enough offense to allow the opposition to get set up and still score - not all the time, but enough of the time.

    #4) Quis certainly can, Tinsley is neither parker nor baron, though it is probably better that he drive the lane rather than settle for the jumper. Does the guard specifically need to the one driving? Granger, Dun, and Williams can drive.

    #5) Tins has the skills, presumably McCloud as well. Is there a DA this year

    #6) No decent shooting - not going to be pretty at all.

    #7/8) Have to have movement - guards included.

    #9) Penetrating guards / and our post players should get to the lines with regularity. Hope for balance between the lane and the outside shot?

    #10) I think we have the passers. The question is whether the entry comes from a scoring threat who will keep a defender honest.

    #11) I agree with the Beidres consideration, though Jeff is pretty consistent at creating extra possessions.

    #12) Doesn't this primarily depend on the shooting? Do we really have a choice given the roster?

    #13) Q and JT do well inside. Williams and Granger should be able to operate with the post. Ike/Murphy playing off of the 'big man' could be beneficial, as well as getting them in positions to box out.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    JO might be able to pass out, but he sometimes struggles to get position without a screen. Typically he seems to like to start out of the elbow and perhaps cross the lane for position. The give and go was also an effective way to clear out his area in order for him to make a move (but this is with some amount of position already).

    My concern is rebounding off kick-outs. I think if JO posts it's going to limit his rebounds on kick-out bombs. If the ball rotates after going out that's different and I hope they work it more that way if he's alone on the inside.


    Ike can't pass out of a double team. At all. Unless this is fixed he is utterly worthless in this scheme. He can get position and if left one on one he can hurt teams, though I don' know about his passing from the post period. Regardless teams know he's been weak on doubles previously and will attack him without mercy if he's put alone in the post. A double from the weakside that forces him to try and pass over the top and across the lane will be very problematic for him.


    Quis can drive, so can Tins, but do we really want the ball to come back out off of penetration, and where is the post player while this is going on?


    T'Bird, I like where Shawne is at, but at this point he's not ready to go off dribble ala Odom. That could be a limiting factor for the team. Of course many of us are hoping that Danny develops this skill because it's expected from him much more at this point.


    My biggest concern is the free pass that players get with JOBs system as long as they defend hard. I question the shot selection Tins and even Quis have shown and I wonder if the shots will end up coming from the people you want them to come from.

    Also while Quis is a deadly finisher, Tinsley has been just the opposite. He misses more shots near the rim than anyone. Yes, even more than Jeff.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-08-2007 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    I do like the four-out, but I don't like a heavy reliance on the three-point shot.

    I like the four-out in that it enables dribble penetration, better spacing, better backscreen opportunities, etc.

    I like the four-out because it helps a team (IMO) attack the rim.

    I'm not crazy about watching a team use the four-out to attack the three-point line.

    At that time, the offense becomes the ******* step-child of the four-out. It becomes the five-out, also known as the "doughnut offense."

    As for the post player, I think the best option would be JO. I'm not really convinced Bynum is the type of post player that O'B is looking for.

    Our bigger problem is not finding the post player for this offense, its finding four wing players for this offense. Granger and Dunn should be okay as the starting forwards. Murphy may even be okay as the first forward off the bench. Its the backcourt that scares the hell out of me.

    I see no use for Foster. By going small, you are necessarily putting him on the wing/ perimeter. So now he's not even in position to do the one thing he does well - get offensive rebounds. If you put him in the middle, then you've (once again) got "the doughnut" and not the four-out.
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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also while Quis is a deadly finisher, Tinsley has been just the opposite. He misses more shots near the rim than anyone. Yes, even more than Jeff.
    And that is absolutely maddening, because he gets to the rim with ease.

    He should easily be a 16-18ppg player and never need to take a shot outside of the paint.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    I'm not convinced O'Brien won't encourage a lot of penetration using the 4 out. Everyone talks about the 3's, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to his offense.

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    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Im curious about how diogu fits in this system. It seems like he is too short to be your solo post player in the middle, and his passing skills are also suspect. and he is certainly not a perimeter player. Would we be better off trading him? This is under the assumption that your 4 "out" players are supposed to be out there nailing threes. Which is sort of seems like the plan, as far as I can gather from this (If I understand it correctly, which I may not)

    Do you need a big guy in the middle or does it matter if he is smaller? (assuming Ike learned to pass, for example) I would think a 6-8 guy would get dominated by big 7 foot centers...

    he certainly fits the bill for someone who can score in the post though.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Outstanding post, T-Bird! How I do enjoy a good exchange of dialog particularly from a well thought out post.

    Here's my 5-cents worth (2-cents would just cheapen the thread! ):

    (Note: Answers only; no reposted snipets from the original post here in an effort to save space)

    1. Post dominance. Yes! But it will have to be done by committee. I think JO & Harrison could be our best options here only because they can score from the floor. Remember, we're talking about players being able to a) move without the ball, b) score the ball while facing the basket, and c) finishing the play when close-in to the basket (layups, dunks, tip-ins, etc.). When it becomes necessary to switch to half-court sets (which I hope we don't see very many of), JO, Foster and Ike should see playing time in such situations.

    2. Post Players Making the outlet pass to Shooters on the Perimeter. This is going to be a challenge for all of our post-players. JO is the only one of the bunch who has shown he can pass the rock, but too often he settles for trying to over-power his defender 1-on-1 down low. He'll have to overcome that instinct to fight through the defensive coverage, but I think it could work if our post players show a willingness to play within the offense, as well as unselfishly.

    3. Post Players Running the Floor (in transition). I don't know of very many post-players who do get back on defense very quickly. So, I don't imagine that trend to change much. However, if Foster is in the lineup at such times then yes, we will see at least one post player attempting to get back on defense aggressively on nearly every possession. JO...seldom. Ike...maybe. Harrison...???, but he does have some quickness. We'll just have to see if he's motivated enough to play outside himself (not to mention staying injury-free and out of early foul trouble for a change).

    4. Guard Lane Penetration. Oh, yes! Absolutely! We have at least 3 Guard who can create their own shot off the dribble: Quis, Tinsley and MDjr. (I know I just surprised a ton of people with MDjr, but he can do it.) If we add Rush to the mix, he makes four.

    5. Guards Making the Kickout Pass. Again, the answer is Yes! However, expect to see more of that from the likes of Tinsley and MDjr (and McLeod, if retained) than Quis. When he finds the seam, he usually has the green light for the score.

    6. (Perimeter) Shooters making High % Shots. Rush should - should - help them hit that 39% mark, but it all depends on how fast the team acclaimates to the newly structured "3-seconds arcross half-court, standstill 3-pter, motion" offense.

    7. Backside Movement (away from the ball). They'll have to! A Motion Offense is the very foundation of what JOB is trying to do. It's not just a matter of moving the ball (i.e., 2nd and 3rd passes), but rather a matter of players moving without the ball to better position themselves on the floor while keeping the defense off balance. It's going to call for screeners and cutters up high. Foster is the last of the old "pick setters" w/JO taking on alot more of that role last year. I'm not so sure this team has alot more of those types of players who are willing to sacrafice their body that way.

    8. Guard-play after the initial pass/low-post screens. Now, this is interesting! On Guard play, I think that will take care of itself with good motion offense. As to the Guards screening for bigs (JO), it's rare when a small (Guard) sets a pick or screen for a big (Forward/Center), but if it happens don't nobody get tic'd off when the little guy gets bull doz'd by the big guy. (Ouch!!!) If the Guard is a big guy (6'8", 250 lbs) acting more like a Point-Forward, he might be able to get away with it. Otherwise, I don't see this happening.

    9. Increased FTAs. Yes! A renewed emphasis on lane penetration demands it! If this team does not see more trips to the line with this new uptempo style of play, I'm gonna be a very upset fan towards the officials!

    10. Feeding the Low-post (from the Wings). Frankly, I don't think we'll have to worry about this too much. I really don't see where there will be many dump passes to post players with their backs to the basket except in half-court sets. I envision most post playes to come off post screens where they will move to the ball and then make their power move to the basket or take face-up jump shots. Feeding the low-post will probably become more of the exception rather than the norm.

    11. Foster's involvement w/"Small-Ball" play. I agree with Evan on this one. (See post #2 for details).

    12. Most Effective Offensive Style of Play for the Pacers as the roster currently stands? Yes, but team defense is the key for going deep into the post-season. Wanna know how bad it can get? See the 2006-2007 Dallas Mavericks! Wanna know how successful it can be? See the '04-07 Phoenix Suns!

    13. Guards playing a Post Position. Forget about it! We don't have the height. Shawn Williams comes close, but nope!

    14. Ball Reversal. I don't think so. It's one reason I suspect JOB is so keen on getting the ball down court fast before the defense has a chance to get set. If done right, there won't be much of a need, if any, to reverse the ball at all. But if it does come to that, I suppose we'd have enough time remaining on the shot clock to reset the offense under JOB's 3-second rule. So, this shouldn't be a big deal.

    'Nuff Said.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 07-18-2007 at 04:27 PM.

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