Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 2
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 template Next
  • #1

    Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Back to basketball "X's and O's" today, and away from talking about personnel, salary caps, summer league, free agents, and all the other summer time filler. Today I put my coaching hat back on, and discuss some details of the Jim O'Brien offense I suspect we will see us install in the upcoming weeks and months.

    First of all, let's talk formation. This is a topic I've discussed before, but it needs explanation again to set up the rest of the topic. Since Larry Brown took over, the Pacers have had a string of coaches who believed in a 1 guard front. (Isiah was somewhat more flexible, but basically continued to play that way). What this means from a coaching perspective is that you have 1 true guard setting up your offense from the top of the floor, 2 wings, and 2 post players. This was partly the coaches personal preference I believe, but also a good use of our talent, since we had for many years a non handling 2 guard (Reggie), paired with a top notch handler and decision maker (Mark Jackson). This has continued through the Rick Carlisle era while Tinsley has taken over the role as primary ballhandler.

    Some, like myself and Jay to name a couple, have wanted more variety in our offensive scheme by playing some form of a "2 guard" front, which to me means 2 guards up top sharing ballhandling duties, 2 wings spread on each side of the floor, and one "post" player posting up on the block/midpost/high post areas. This post player wouldnt be asked to do much in terms of screening or recieving screens, his job theoretically is just to post up strong and be an offensive force, using strength to obtain and keep position.

    In Jim O'Brien, we will now see a significant shift toward a "4 out, 1 in" offensive scheme. While I think many of you have read that, and have read about our coaches philosophy on taking the three point shot, I thought it might be educational and fun to talk about some of the little things that will be involved in playing this way, and maybe talk a bit about how well we think our current personnel fits into this way of play. This thread will talk only about offense, and not any defensive issues (those will come in a later thread sometime soon).

    When you are a coach who believes in the "4 out, 1 in" scheme, you must look for and teach some basic principles, and concern yourself with some of the following questions. Those with thoughts or questions please share them with the rest of us, and hopefully we can all learn from this examination of our new system.

    1. Can our post player establish and keep low post position, and get open without a screen? This is JO we are talking about, and Ike most likely when JO isnt in the game. I was a big proponent last offseason of getting the ball to JO on the move, after screens, and playing him facing the basket some, especially in a high/low game with Harrington. (That didn't last long, much to my chagrin....we gave up way too soon on that, but thats another topic). Those days are over here in Indiana....JO will now be asked to fight for position, maintain it,and score effectively against single coverage. How will this effect the great debate of whether JO needs to lose or gain weight? How will this effect the great proclamation of JO that he doesnt want to play the 5 spot?

    2. Can our post player(s) accurately and willingly throw the ball to all 4 points on the perimeter and hit shooters in rhythm with an accurate pass?

    3.Will our post player(s) run the floor hard to establish position before the full defense is set, or will he walk up the floor too often?

    4. Can our guards penetrate into the lane and finish the play by themselves, if help never comes?

    5. Can our guards penetrate, draw the defense, and make an accurate pass to shooters on the perimeter, behind the three point line? Here is something to watch for fans, and this is a major reason why I believe O'Brien is being truthful when he claims to really like Tinsley's game: Tinsley can make this pass with either hand, and he can do it by passing the ball parallel to his body or even behind himself at an angle somewhat. This is key because in this system, shooters will often "fill" areas BEHIND a penetrating guard to balance the floor and get back defensively, so the passer needs to be able to not just pass the ball ahead of himself (to the corner in some cases, or lower wing area), but somewhat behind him to the top of the right/left wings. This is a difficult pass that some guards cannot make, and make accurately.

    6. Can our shooters take and make a high enough percentage of open, standstill 3 point shots? On these open three point standing shots (O'Brien will classify them as good shots he wants taken), we will be expected to hit about 39% of these, which I know seems high, but it will be what is expected on THESE TYPE OF THREES ONLY.

    7. Will we get good "backside" movement out of this set? This is super important when you play "4 out, 1 in" offense. What I mean is player movement on the opposite side of the floor, away from the ball. A HUGE tendency of teams playing this at the beginning is for the 2 players opposite the ball to stand and start spotting up way too soon, and to become too stationary, making it easy for their men to help and recover back to them (if they don't move, it makes them easy to find in a recovery situation for the defensive man guarding them). Trust me, this is a big coaching challenge you have to drill on alot.

    8. What will our guards do after making the first pass to start our set? I'm interested in this quite a bit actually, as nerdy as that sounds. I want to know things like if they will screen away, or cut to the ballside corner, or if they'll cut shallower than that and go to the opposite side, or whatever. Will O'Brien help JO a bit and send a guard down to screen for JO, so he doesnt have to fight as hard for position? ( A likely adjustment we will see alot I predict).

    9. Will our free throw attempts increase or decrease? I believe strongly in getting to the line and even making more free throws than your opponent attempts. I don't know if playing this way full time will help or hurt that goal. My guess is we will slash more and hopefully be in more free flowing situations, so I hope they go up, but the jury is still out. I definitley believe we will shoot alot more three point attempts than we are used to.

    10. Who will feed the post? This will be key to us, as we will need someone to get the ball to our post player, who will be being leaned on and pushed out by a heavier and bigger defender most nights. Do we have anyone who will excel at this? I'm guessing that our 2 best post feeders will actually be Shawn Williams and Troy Murphy, believe it or not, since they each have size and can see over the defense better to make a quality pass. I suspect almost all of our post feeds will be from the wing areas, instead of the high post or short corners, which I hoped for last season.

    11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, Murphy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.

    12. Is this the single most effective way we can play to utilize our current personnel? If not, do we change how we play, or do we get new players?

    13. Do we have any guards who can play the post, if we choose to play that way? I'm thinking of a lineup without JO, Ike, or Harrison in it for some reason. Can Tinsley play that role? I don't know, but I suspect he can, and I think O'Brien will use him that way much more than we suspect.

    14. Can we consistently get ball reversal once or twice a possession? This is key too, and is one reason Coach O wants to push it up quickly. You have to be able in this scheme to get the ball inside, back out, reverse the ball, drive it, and kick it out to open shooters.....everything takes time to attack this way. Our guards can't get hung up outside, our post guy has to get open on his own and recieve a pass without too much trouble from a post feeder, our post guy either has to score or get it back outside and reverse the ball, and our perimeter guys need to either spot up and make it or drive it and attack. None of this happens if you can't reverse the ball, so how well we do that will be critical.

    Lots of questions to be answered, Pacers fans. If nothing else, this new offensive scheme will be good for those of us "armchair coaches" who at least will get something different to watch. Will it work? Time only will tell.


    As always, this is just my opinion.

    Tbird
    Last edited by thunderbird1245; 07-07-2007, 10:32 AM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

    Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
    11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.
    Nice post TBird!

    On #11, I disagree with you regarding Jeff Foster. If we play small ball, I'd think it would be essential for us to have Jeff out there with that lineup. Since small ball sometimes means a lot of long range shots are taken, we need to have the best rebounder we could possibly have out there. Also, Jeff can run better than any of our other big men which makes him even more important with a smaller lineup. Where Jeff's presence would be most important is on the defensive end, which you said you won't mention in this thread. But as nice as having a small lineup on the floor sounds, we also have to keep in mind that we have to do it while not getting out muscled on the defensive end of the floor. Keep in mind that we might be running O'Brien's offense, but we're running Harter's defense. Somehow those lineups have to come into one.

    It's sort of like what Golden State did last year. With Harrington starting at center vs the Mavs (which didn't last long), the Warriors were much quicker than the Mavs, but there wasn't anybody tall or big enough to muscle the boards and contest shots. That's when they started Biedrins. Once they did that, they still succeeded with playing small ball, and they brought the size mismatch to a minimum defensively. That's sort of the role I see Foster playing.

    I don't think Harrison has earned anything on this team. Sure last season he had his shoulder injury, but I get the idea that he isn't working too hard to become a better player. He sort of acts as if he's just along for the ride, and once it's over, it's over. He doesn't seem to be interested in a long successful career.
    Last edited by Evan_The_Dude; 07-06-2007, 11:23 PM.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

      Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
      3.Will our post player(s) run the floor hard to establish position before the full defense is set, or will he walk up the floor too often?

      Great post...

      I hope that JOB's '3 second rule' applies here as well as to our PG.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

        First off, another great post Tbird. I enjoy reading them.
        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        4. Can our guards penetrate into the lane and finish the play by themselves, if help never comes?
        I believe that we have guards that can do this. Quis is very good at getting into the paint from outside and if he can stay healthy, I expect to see a lot of this from him. Tinsley is another option for penetration.

        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        8. What will our guards do after making the first pass to start our set? I'm interested in this quite a bit actually, as nerdy as that sounds. I want to know things like if they will screen away, or cut to the ballside corner, or if they'll cut shallower than that and go to the opposite side, or whatever. Will O'Brien help JO a bit and send a guard down to screen for JO, so he doesnt have to fight as hard for position? ( A likely adjustment we will see alot I predict).
        Last year on my school basketball team, the coach ran a "4 out, 1 in" offense (or 4 guard offense or whatever you want to call it). Now Jim O'Brien probably doesn't run it the same way as a HS coach would, but when the player passed off the ball, there were a series of screens that followed. Depending on where the ball was, the screens varied. It really gave a lot of options and it gave opprotunities for cuts and/or open shots from long range.

        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        9. Will our free throw attempts increase or decrease? I believe strongly in getting to the line and even making more free throws than your opponent attempts. I don't know if playing this way full time will help or hurt that goal. My guess is we will slash more and hopefully be in more free flowing situations, so I hope they go up, but the jury is still out. I definitley believe we will shoot alot more three point attempts than we are used to.
        I can't see how they won't increase. Yes, you are less likely to get fouled if you shoot more threes (in my mind anyway). But, if we do slash and get to the basket, we should have many more shot atempts from the line.

        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        11. Will we play small ball alot, and how does that effect Jeff Foster? I suspect our lineups will include JO or Ike as our post player, with Daniels, Rush, Tinsley, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, Murphy, and whomever backs up Jamal playing outside as the "4 out". I have no idea how Jeff can play in this system, and because of that I suspect Jeff will be moved prior to the season, for better or for worse. I also suspect this will be the year David Harrison gets a chance to play, and we will find out once and for all if he can be an NBA player or not.
        I don't think he would necessarily be better at all in this offense, but I think if he was used differently to JO and Ike when they're playing, he could prove useful. I believe that instead of using Jeff as a post up player who would just live in the paint, he could come and set screens for players around the three point line. And if you'd like to have Foster, God forbid, shoot a jump shot, it could be like a give-n-go situation. But if that were to happen I would see Jeff most likely running towards the baseline to get the pass back.

        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        13. Do we have any guards who can play the post, if we choose to play that way? I'm thinking of a lineup without JO, Ike, or Harrison in it for some reason. Can Tinsley play that role? I don't know, but I suspect he can, and I think O'Brien will use him that way much more than we suspect.
        I was wondering if you could elaborate on this. I wasn't quite sure what you meant. Are you saying who would be down low if we had in a lineup of say Tinsley, Quis, Dunleavy, Shawne, Danny? They wouldn't necessarily play those positions, but I just didn't know what you meant.
        I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

          Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
          12. Is this the single most effective way we can play to utilize our current personnel? If not, do we change how we play, or do we get new players?
          This is the big one for me. In Boston O'Brien had frontcourt players like Battie (as well as the usual suspects like Antoine, Pierce, Delk, etc) who could step out and hit the 3 - or at least the long 2. Are the Pacers set up that way? I just don't see how the current personnel can make that work.

          And JO's turning into a real conundrum (sp?). His best game is in the post - but if he plays in the post all the time he gets beat up. Personally, I'm not fond of him taking a bunch of 18-foot jumpers. It seems like he's on about 1 game in 3. For that game it's great but for the other 2 it kills you.
          The poster formerly known as Rimfire

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

            A couple of points from the above comments:

            1. JO is a conundrum for the Pacers I believe. He needs to be quick to get down the floor and establish position quickly. On the other hand, he needs to add weight to help defend bigger players and to live with the pounding he will take playing as a solo post player in the Jim O'Brien scheme. On the one hand the Pacers would probably be open to dealing him, on the other this scheme I think possibly could open things up for him by getting him some more space to operate. Then again, can he get open on his own and hold position without recieving alot of screens? It's a tough call, and I'd love to be able to know what O'Brien is thinking about with JO.

            2. On the lineup without a traditional post player on the floor, let's just consider how we could play offensively with a lineup on the floor without JO, Ike, or Harrison. It will probably in that case look like this:

            Pg: Tinsley
            Sg: Daniels/Rush
            Wings: Dunleavy/Granger/Williams
            C: Murphy

            Ok, now Murphy isnt a low post player offensively at all, even though he has good size. Using a lineup like this, O'Brien will have to decide if he can use Tinsley as his post player (like we did years ago with Mark Jackson), or maybe Daniels. Golden State had some success using Baron Davis on the block, and years ago the Rockets (in their glory days) sometimes used Sam Cassell on the block when Hakeem was out of the game.

            Do the Pacers have a "non center" they can play inside sometimes in a "4 around 1" type offense? This remains to be seen, but it could be another reason why our new staff seems enamored with Tinsley.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

              I must say the armchair coaching thread always get me going ... i personally cant wait to see how we work in a new system.

              As for J.O. in the post ... i personally think tis is as well as we can utilise him. in a 4 out - 1 in offence he will be in a better position to make a post move and score himself. This isnt the problem, in my view, offensivly it is quite possibly the best way for him to play giving his skills (he may not be quite a good enough passer but i dont think he is too bad!) ... it is defensivly against the bigger men that i believe he will struggle. He will be fighting on the post at both ends and in previous year we all know this has ended badly!

              Having said this who can we get that will do a better job. There are very few post players in the league that i believe are better suited to this style of play. Duncan is the obvious one!

              Fosters role is also incredibly hard to work out. I wonder if there is way we could utilise him so he can take the definsive loads of J.O ... We all know we cant use him as the post player that we use alone inside and that he isn't going to work as a spot shooter, however, i wonder if he could be used for things such as baseline screens and helping others create better positions while being on the weakside near the baseline at about 10 foot from the basket so he can crash the offensive boards etc.

              Maybe, just maybe, we can use him there more than anything to take the defensive responsibility off J.O ... and in turn save his body

              I also believe that Tinsley can work very well in this offense ... very much like a Tony parker PG ... although if he manages to miss so many drives as he did last year he may not be all that effective ... but it is his passing that could make him extremely effective using dribble penetration to free up other players!


              Very interesting topic ... i will continue to attempt to get my head round it, and may post later with more views.

              JMO
              'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
              Animal Farm, by George Orwell

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                A couple of points from the above comments:

                1. JO is a conundrum for the Pacers I believe. He needs to be quick to get down the floor and establish position quickly. On the other hand, he needs to add weight to help defend bigger players and to live with the pounding he will take playing as a solo post player in the Jim O'Brien scheme. On the one hand the Pacers would probably be open to dealing him, on the other this scheme I think possibly could open things up for him by getting him some more space to operate. Then again, can he get open on his own and hold position without recieving alot of screens? It's a tough call, and I'd love to be able to know what O'Brien is thinking about with JO.

                2. On the lineup without a traditional post player on the floor, let's just consider how we could play offensively with a lineup on the floor without JO, Ike, or Harrison. It will probably in that case look like this:

                Pg: Tinsley
                Sg: Daniels/Rush
                Wings: Dunleavy/Granger/Williams
                C: Murphy

                Ok, now Murphy isnt a low post player offensively at all, even though he has good size. Using a lineup like this, O'Brien will have to decide if he can use Tinsley as his post player (like we did years ago with Mark Jackson), or maybe Daniels. Golden State had some success using Baron Davis on the block, and years ago the Rockets (in their glory days) sometimes used Sam Cassell on the block when Hakeem was out of the game.

                Do the Pacers have a "non center" they can play inside sometimes in a "4 around 1" type offense? This remains to be seen, but it could be another reason why our new staff seems enamored with Tinsley.
                Say, just for argument's sake, that we got Lamar Odom. Do you think he could play center in this offense?
                I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                  Originally posted by indyman37 View Post
                  Say, just for argument's sake, that we got Lamar Odom. Do you think he could play center in this offense?
                  Pretty much i think my answer is an emphatic "no".

                  Odom is a great fit in my opinion for Jim O'Brien's system, but not as the solo post player/center position. Odom would be a "face up 4" playing on the perimeter mostly. If acquired, he'd probably become our best post feeder and "initiator" of offense.....he'd play alot of the role of playmaker, and alot of the offense would go through him, but it would be away from the basket, not inside in the paint.

                  Now, having said that, the above role is the one I see for Shawn Williams, which is why I don't really want Odom anyway. I don't want Odom here, Id rather go young if I make a deal like dumping JO and play Shawn, who I feel is a quality player, good fit, and has a high upside. If we did trade JO, I'd either have a deal in mind to spin Odom off to a 3rd team for backcourt help/elite perimeter defender, or I'd just agree to take alot of future picks and expirings instead of Odom.

                  I think in an ideal world, O'Brien would have his teams based around a big, traditional, dominant center who could demand a double team and be bigger and stronger and more durable than O'Neal is. The ability to fight thru traffic before you recieve the ball, and to be able to hold ground while posting up is going to be a big challenge for JO if he stays, one which I personally can't wait to see how it all works from a coaching perspective. What adjustments O'Brien makes to help JO be effective (if any) are going to be a big thing I'm going to watch for in preseason.
                  Last edited by thunderbird1245; 07-08-2007, 12:59 AM.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                    Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                    Pretty much i think my answer is an emphatic "no".

                    Odom is a great fit in my opinion for Jim O'Brien's system, but not as the solo post player/center position. Odom would be a "face up 4" playing on the perimeter mostly. If acquired, he'd probably become our best post feeder and "initiator" of offense.....he'd play alot of the role of playmaker, and alot of the offense would go through him, but it would be away from the basket, not inside in the paint.

                    Now, having said that, the above role is the one I see for Shawn Williams, which is why I don't really want Odom anyway. I don't want Odom here, Id rather go young if I make a deal like dumping JO and play Shawn, who I feel is a quality player, good fit, and has a high upside. If we did trade JO, I'd either have a deal in mind to spin Odom off to a 3rd team for backcourt help/elite perimeter defender, or I'd just agree to take alot of future picks and expirings instead of Odom.

                    I think in an ideal world, O'Brien would have his teams based around a big, traditional, dominant center who could demand a double team and be bigger and stronger and more durable than O'Neal is. The ability to fight thru traffic before you recieve the ball, and to be able to hold ground while posting up is going to be a big challenge for JO if he stays, one which I personally can't wait to see how it all works from a coaching perspective. What adjustments O'Brien makes to help JO be effective (if any) are going to be a big thing I'm going to watch for in preseason.
                    sounds like you're describing Bynum....

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                      Thanks for the great post T-bird

                      My primary thought...If odom could play the center in this offense, why couldn't Baston?

                      I only checked the height/weights, Maceo gives 15lbs and 1" to Odom. Maceo can hit the three as well.

                      The following has likely been covered, it has taken a while to generate, but submitted for your consideration none the less.
                      #1) Yes, mostly. Does anyone else feel like Ike plays more 'deeply' for lack of a better word? JO sometimes relies on the jumper. But both are crafty enough at the post.

                      #2) 1/2 the time. If JO is not very deep, does he get the ball at all. If he gets it in his jump range will he shoot it or pass? If he is not deep, then his man is already out on the perimeter to help - that bugged me last season. Ike needs to work on passing out of doubles as we saw last season - but perhaps with some shooters he would not be doubled.

                      #3) Does not sound like the slow walk option is available with this type of system. Killed us last season - we did not have enough offense to allow the opposition to get set up and still score - not all the time, but enough of the time.

                      #4) Quis certainly can, Tinsley is neither parker nor baron, though it is probably better that he drive the lane rather than settle for the jumper. Does the guard specifically need to the one driving? Granger, Dun, and Williams can drive.

                      #5) Tins has the skills, presumably McCloud as well. Is there a DA this year

                      #6) No decent shooting - not going to be pretty at all.

                      #7/8) Have to have movement - guards included.

                      #9) Penetrating guards / and our post players should get to the lines with regularity. Hope for balance between the lane and the outside shot?

                      #10) I think we have the passers. The question is whether the entry comes from a scoring threat who will keep a defender honest.

                      #11) I agree with the Beidres consideration, though Jeff is pretty consistent at creating extra possessions.

                      #12) Doesn't this primarily depend on the shooting? Do we really have a choice given the roster?

                      #13) Q and JT do well inside. Williams and Granger should be able to operate with the post. Ike/Murphy playing off of the 'big man' could be beneficial, as well as getting them in positions to box out.
                      ! Free Rick Sanchez !

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                        JO might be able to pass out, but he sometimes struggles to get position without a screen. Typically he seems to like to start out of the elbow and perhaps cross the lane for position. The give and go was also an effective way to clear out his area in order for him to make a move (but this is with some amount of position already).

                        My concern is rebounding off kick-outs. I think if JO posts it's going to limit his rebounds on kick-out bombs. If the ball rotates after going out that's different and I hope they work it more that way if he's alone on the inside.


                        Ike can't pass out of a double team. At all. Unless this is fixed he is utterly worthless in this scheme. He can get position and if left one on one he can hurt teams, though I don' know about his passing from the post period. Regardless teams know he's been weak on doubles previously and will attack him without mercy if he's put alone in the post. A double from the weakside that forces him to try and pass over the top and across the lane will be very problematic for him.


                        Quis can drive, so can Tins, but do we really want the ball to come back out off of penetration, and where is the post player while this is going on?


                        T'Bird, I like where Shawne is at, but at this point he's not ready to go off dribble ala Odom. That could be a limiting factor for the team. Of course many of us are hoping that Danny develops this skill because it's expected from him much more at this point.


                        My biggest concern is the free pass that players get with JOBs system as long as they defend hard. I question the shot selection Tins and even Quis have shown and I wonder if the shots will end up coming from the people you want them to come from.

                        Also while Quis is a deadly finisher, Tinsley has been just the opposite. He misses more shots near the rim than anyone. Yes, even more than Jeff.
                        Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-08-2007, 06:59 AM.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                          I do like the four-out, but I don't like a heavy reliance on the three-point shot.

                          I like the four-out in that it enables dribble penetration, better spacing, better backscreen opportunities, etc.

                          I like the four-out because it helps a team (IMO) attack the rim.

                          I'm not crazy about watching a team use the four-out to attack the three-point line.

                          At that time, the offense becomes the ******* step-child of the four-out. It becomes the five-out, also known as the "doughnut offense."

                          As for the post player, I think the best option would be JO. I'm not really convinced Bynum is the type of post player that O'B is looking for.

                          Our bigger problem is not finding the post player for this offense, its finding four wing players for this offense. Granger and Dunn should be okay as the starting forwards. Murphy may even be okay as the first forward off the bench. Its the backcourt that scares the hell out of me.

                          I see no use for Foster. By going small, you are necessarily putting him on the wing/ perimeter. So now he's not even in position to do the one thing he does well - get offensive rebounds. If you put him in the middle, then you've (once again) got "the doughnut" and not the four-out.
                          Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                          Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                          Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                          Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                          And life itself, rushing over me
                          Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                          Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                            Also while Quis is a deadly finisher, Tinsley has been just the opposite. He misses more shots near the rim than anyone. Yes, even more than Jeff.
                            And that is absolutely maddening, because he gets to the rim with ease.

                            He should easily be a 16-18ppg player and never need to take a shot outside of the paint.

                            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                            And life itself, rushing over me
                            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Tbird analysis: X and O offensive discussion of the Jim O'Brien scheme

                              I'm not convinced O'Brien won't encourage a lot of penetration using the 4 out. Everyone talks about the 3's, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to his offense.

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 template Next
                              Working...
                              X