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Thread: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

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    Default Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    The only thing I'm a little leery about is O'Brien's insistance on shooting threes, but I guess i can live with that if they play defense as I fully expect them to. But I especially don't like the step back three.

    Another minor thing that caught my attention was at the very end of the article. Ob says the power forward and small forward are basically interchangible - two thoughts immedietely come to mind.
    1) that is very different from Carlisle, in his system the small forward and shooting guard were interchangible
    2) Jeff won't be playing any power forward this season.

    I expect to see Murphy, Granger and Shawne playing power forward with Jeff, Ike and JO being the center. Small ball in other words



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    Pacers rookie And free agent camp
    Williams staying busy in offseason
    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com
    July 6, 2007


    Summer vacation?

    It's been more like summer school for Indiana Pacers second-year forward Shawne Williams, who has had just two weeks off since the season ended almost three months ago.

    Williams has made Conseco Fieldhouse his second home as he tries to build on an impressive ending to his rookie season.

    Williams worked out with the Pacers coaching staff four days a week before rookie/free agent camp opened Thursday.

    He spent the first part of the offseason with former coach Rick Carlisle's staff and team president Larry Bird.

    Bird didn't waste words in his assessment.

    "Larry made me shoot 100 free throws and told me not to think about shooting 3s," Williams said.

    Things changed once Jim O'Brien was named coach in late May.
    During their first day of workouts, O'Brien had Williams spot up and shoot 3-pointers.

    "It wasn't pretty at first," Williams said, laughing. "I hadn't shot a 3 in four weeks. I was shooting air balls and overshooting the rim."

    O'Brien expects the 3-pointer to be part of Williams' repertoire. He has had Williams, who shot 37 percent on 3-pointers last season, and Danny Granger concentrating on 3-point shooting in individual workouts.

    The coach stopped a drill in practice Thursday after Williams shot a jumper just inside the 3-point line.

    "He wants us to shoot the 3 and if we're that close to the line, we should take a step back and get the three points," Williams said.


    Williams has noticed other differences between the two coaches.

    O'Brien has a hands-on approach, spending a lot of time teaching and drilling instructions into the players' heads.

    "He's not a screamer in practice," Williams said. "His voice is just loud and it carries. Rick was more laid back."

    Williams spent the majority of the first half of his rookie season on the inactive list. He had one double-digit scoring game through the end of the March, when his playing time increased as the Pacers struggled down the stretch.

    Williams played double-figure minutes in the final 11 games he appeared in. That stretch showed why Bird was so high on him in last year's draft. He had a career-high 19 points against New Jersey and played within the system.

    "Last season helped my confidence, but that's an old season and I've got to do something this season to build my confidence back up," Williams said.

    O'Brien said Williams, who played both forward positions before switching primarily to small forward last season, will be counted on in a variety of ways.

    "All of our guys, preferably, will be able to face up," O'Brien said. "Everybody has to be multifaceted, so I would not really get caught up on the numbers. Our (small forwards) and (power forwards) are going to be asked to shoot 3s and handle the ball up top. They are interchangeable."
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-06-2007 at 08:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    On one hand I like the fact that he's a coach that isn't afraid of the three-pointer. On the other hand I feel that if a player spends too much time behind the three-point line, he get's used to that range and becomes a bit less accurate from the mid-range point. However I think Shawne has an excellent stroke, so I'm not worried about him spending too much time out there, as long as he's going to the basket at times too. Whatever happens, I think this coming season is going to be very fun to watch.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    So if are small forwards and power forwards are going to be asked to shoot from the arc so much, does that mean that our SG and PG are going to be asked to penetrate and shoot the pull up, mid range? This certainly would fall in line with LB's criticism of last season that we weren't getting through down low. It also fits Quis's style and makes Jamal not settle for quick pops at the beggining of the shot clock.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    He hasn't shot a single three in FOUR weeks? He has to be kidding right? RIGHT?

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    a few thoughts... danny and shawne proved they could shoot the 3 regularly - so i don't necessarily have a problem with this. i just definitely hope that danny doesn't float around the arc and starts driving to the basket like he did his rookie season. i think he needs both skills to be the great player we hope he'll become.

    i really wish dunleavy was in indy working on shooting. it would certainly make me feel better about the upcoming season.

    how much you wanna bet that o'brien encourages jeff to play the 4 and suddenly he becomes beast from behind the arc putting up kapono-like percentages. finally, jeff will find his offensive game.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    how much you wanna bet that o'brien encourages jeff to play the 4 and suddenly he becomes beast from behind the arc putting up kapono-like percentages. finally, jeff will find his offensive game.
    As long as he doesn't have Rodman's shooting form I'm okay with it.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Its funny to me that they have to say these kinds of things to NBA players. Every high school player has it drilled in their head that a long two-pointer is the worst shot in basketball. Lack of fundamentals, grumble, grumble, the NBA is ruining basketball, grumble, grumble, etc.

    I always wonder how much better the best players in the world could be if they played 30 less games and had some real practice time, plus a dedicated and well-run developmental league for young guys to gain experience.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
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    Its funny to me that they have to say these kinds of things to NBA players. Every high school player has it drilled in their head that a long two-pointer is the worst shot in basketball. Lack of fundamentals, grumble, grumble, the NBA is ruining basketball, grumble, grumble, etc.
    I disagree with that, and always have. If you've got a good look at a long two, and that's where your range is at, then take it. Too many players feel like they HAVE to get a three, and so lose their chance to hit a shot they could actually make.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    If we've got HS coaches teaching kids to step out of their range and that a long 2-pointer is the worst shot in basketball then somebody should take away their whistle and beat them upside the head with it.

    If anything, the three-point line is too close and needs to be moved back to 28 feet (or more) to prevent stupid coaches from relying too heavily on it.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    a few thoughts... danny and shawne proved they could shoot the 3 regularly - so i don't necessarily have a problem with this. i just definitely hope that danny doesn't float around the arc and starts driving to the basket like he did his rookie season. i think he needs both skills to be the great player we hope he'll become.

    i really wish dunleavy was in indy working on shooting. it would certainly make me feel better about the upcoming season.

    how much you wanna bet that o'brien encourages jeff to play the 4 and suddenly he becomes beast from behind the arc putting up kapono-like percentages. finally, jeff will find his offensive game.
    Dunleavy has been in New York working with a shooting coach all summer to help increase his shooting percentage

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
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    Every high school player has it drilled in their head that a long two-pointer is the worst shot in basketball.
    And all those coaches teaching that are full of baloney, usually.

    It might be a terrible shot if you are shooting an 18 footer when you have range to 23 feet. But an awful lot of players at all levels are (or could be) automatic from mid-range even though they lack 3-point range.

    Let's say I simply lack the ability to make 3-pointers consistently. I shoot them at a 15% rate. But I have perfected my mid-range game and can make a reasonably open 18-footer 50% of the time.

    Should I pass up the 50% shot from 18 feet and take 2 steps back and launch a 15% shot from 23 feet?

    You might think that this sort of situation is odd- making mid range and even deep-mid-range shots (16-20 feet) regularly but not extending out further. It's not. One of my favorite college players ever was Calbert Cheaney. He was automatic from 3 in college at the shorter distance. He went to the NBA and had a nice career but lacked range for the NBA 3 (career percentage <30%). He remained money from midrange. He needed a coach and a system that encouraged him to shoot the shots he can make. A 19-footer was a great shot for him. A 23-footer, even open, was not.

    edit- while I was writing this long-winded rebuttle, others beat me to it!


    I think Dunleavy might be a lot like Cheaney-- automatic from a certain range but not necessarily out beyond the NBA 3-point line.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 07-06-2007 at 10:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I disagree with that, and always have. If you've got a good look at a long two, and that's where your range is at, then take it. Too many players feel like they HAVE to get a three, and so lose their chance to hit a shot they could actually make.
    In my opinion, and I think the opinion of most basketball people I've been around, if you're in position to take a twenty foot two pointer on offense, you were in the wrong place. When coaches yell "spacing," thats one of the things they mean.

    If your range extends out to twenty feet, but not to the three point line, then
    A) work on your range, its probably mental
    B) in almost all cases it will be better if someone else takes a three or you put yourself in a position to take a closer shot (15 footer, etc.).

    For example, even though he hits a twenty footer at an above average (though still poor) clip, I think Big Z really killed the Cavs in the Finals when he rolled off those picks. He could have hit a much higher percentage if he had just spaced a little closer, Tim D still would not have gotten back to him because they were all preoccupied with Bron.
    Last edited by bulldog; 07-06-2007 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    Dunleavy has been in New York working with a shooting coach all summer to help increase his shooting percentage
    That is the first I've heard of that. Where did you hear (or read) this?

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    If we've got HS coaches teaching kids to step out of their range and that a long 2-pointer is the worst shot in basketball then somebody should take away their whistle and beat them upside the head with it.

    If anything, the three-point line is too close and needs to be moved back to 28 feet (or more) to prevent stupid coaches from relying too heavily on it.
    Along these lines, let's see what happens to the college game the season after next.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    You might think that this sort of situation is odd- making mid range and even deep-mid-range shots (16-20 feet) regularly but not extending out further. It's not. One of my favorite college players ever was Calbert Cheaney. He was automatic from 3 in college at the shorter distance. He went to the NBA and had a nice career but lacked range for the NBA 3 (career percentage <30%). He remained money from midrange. He needed a coach and a system that encouraged him to shoot the shots he can make. A 19-footer was a great shot for him. A 23-footer, even open, was not.
    The classic NBA example of this is Alex English. Deadly from 18 to 20 feet. Didn't even bother shooting three's because it was out of his range.

    Remember growing up and playing "around the world" until you could hit a 12-footer all the time? And as you got bigger and stronger you'd take a step back. And eventually you could constantly hit every shot from inside of 18 feet. Nowadays, it seems we send the kids straight to the three-point line but we probably also lower the rim to 8 feet to help them make it.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    I thought the reaso Larry Bird got Williams was because of his shooting? He should b wokring on all aspects of his game

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    In all fairness, when Larry drafted Shawne, he did say Shawne would play both forward positions. He said the same about Danny the year before. They both have the height (6'9") to pull it off. BUT, seeing as they're looking at Shawne at the PF position, that has to make you wonder what's going on with J.O. right about now...

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Yeah, I hate that step back to shoot an out of rhythm 3 too. Just catch and rise up naturally, that's what you can knock down a high percentage. When you start taking steps back before you shoot it, that's unnatural.

    Although, I was always taught to do that from 3rd grade through the end of high school. Every coach I had said the worst shot in basketball is a shot with your feet on the 3 point line.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    Every coach I had said the worst shot in basketball is a shot with your feet on the 3 point line.
    Won't dispute that comment. But the shot you take from one step inside the three point line is usually a pretty good shot.
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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    Dunleavy has been in New York working with a shooting coach all summer to help increase his shooting percentage

    Now that is good news, I think he's a 39% shooting 3 pointer from being a very valuable piece to a good team. I think he'd become one of my favorite Pacers if he could do that.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    That is the first I've heard of that. Where did you hear (or read) this?
    I read it somewhere I am trying to find it.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    The only thing I'm a little leery about is O'Brien's insistance on shooting threes, but I guess i can live with that if they play defense as I fully expect them to. But I especially don't like the step back three.

    Another minor thing that caught my attention was at the very end of the article. Ob says the power forward and small forward are basically interchangible - two thoughts immedietely come to mind.
    1) that is very different from Carlisle, in his system the small forward and shooting guard were interchangible
    2) Jeff won't be playing any power forward this season.

    I expect to see Murphy, Granger and Shawne playing power forward with Jeff, Ike and JO being the center. Small ball in other words
    In other words, the Pacers post-brawl whenever JO was injured. And before you guys rush out to say "that was the good, up-tempo game", let me say that it certainly WAS NOT.

    It was "pass around the arc, ball doesn't go more than 3 feet inside the arc, no penetration, time is almost up so I'll shoot the 3" ball. It was horrible. Back then while still at the Star I complained about their awful nights when the 3PAs ran close to 25-30.

    They had lineups like this:
    PG - AJ/Fred
    SG - Fred/Reggie/Jack
    SF - Reggie/Jack
    PF - JJ
    C - Dale/Foster

    I doubt Rick liked it but with not a lot of inside scoring he appeared to go with the talent he had and just try to gamble his way into some wins. On the nights when guys were making shots it looked great. When the 3 was off it was a disaster.


    Any doubts that might have lingered about the "Defend and Chuck" system being implemented were eliminated by this article. It did get Boston some solid seasons so I'm not saying it can't work. I'm just saying that it's not going to look like "good" basketball and that people that hated Rick's system better actually get used to more of the same in a lot of ways, ie weak offensive execution saved by defensive focus.

    That is if JOB and Harter can get a caliber of defense from this current roster that Rick couldn't (despite getting it out of the post-Ron Pacers up till that point).

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Now that is good news, I think he's a 39% shooting 3 pointer from being a very valuable piece to a good team. I think he'd become one of my favorite Pacers if he could do that.
    Without a doubt. Look, you put some of Foster's defense and rebounding toughness into Troy and get Dun back to a 38% 3pt guy that can actually finish at the rim rather than just get there then you will have single-handedly turned this roster around. You give that to Rick, JOB or any coach and you have a MUCH better team.

    Can that happen though? I hope so because despite my complaints about them my hope (and I think the Pacers') is pinned to the 2 of them improving their games dramatically. Otherwise expect more Spring 2007 this season.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-06-2007 at 01:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I disagree with that, and always have. If you've got a good look at a long two, and that's where your range is at, then take it. Too many players feel like they HAVE to get a three, and so lose their chance to hit a shot they could actually make.
    And to follow up on this and other similar comments, rhythm (also as mentioned) is the key, not the distance. You want to shoot in your comfort zone, and I don't mean distance. You want to touch the ball in a certain way that feels the same as every make you've ever had. If a curl at 16 feet is your thing then just do it.

    I hate people that moan about JO or anyone taking a shot from "too far out". There is no such thing, there is only a shot that is outside your comfort zone. Either you broke rhythm to get it or you are too far out and are adjusting your shot in order to get the extra distance. Heck, some guys get uncomfortable if they get too close to the rim if it's not part of their game.

    JO catch and shoot from the elbow where he flicks his feet forward in a semi-fade as he comes up the floor, that's a nice shot that you can see he likes. Same distance but from set or sometimes off the dribble, not as comfortable. I count on his baseline turn more than his step back jumper off a face up or his lane drive vs a triple team (which earned him his low 40s shooting I think).


    I like the Alex English example, and it could be that this is Dunleavy at this point. If so I'm fine with that, I'll take 52% from 18 feet all day. Take that 100 times and you get 104 points. Compare that to 35% from 3, far better than he's been shooting the 3 the last few years.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I'll take 52% from 18 feet all day. Take that 100 times and you get 104 points. Compare that to 35% from 3.......
    ........and you get 105 points, one better. That's the point.

    Most shooters shoot 40-50% from the field, let's go with 45% (that's generous because I'm not even taking out layups, which would put jump shot percentage closer to 40, but that also factors in 3pts so who knows)

    Most shooters shoot 30-40% from three, let's go with 35%

    Take 100 shots, you would get 90 points from two's and 105 points from three point range. If you won a game 105-90, you would have blown out the other team. Do you think professional basketball players can hit a third of their stepback three's? I can. You would have to shoot long twos at a 55% or higher clip to truly be a better shot that a three.

    There is a reason why O'Brien is being paid millions of dollars to preach this theory.
    Last edited by FlavaDave; 07-06-2007 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Bird tells Shawne not to shoot threes, O'Brien tells him to shoot the three

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    Yeah, I hate that step back to shoot an out of rhythm 3 too. Just catch and rise up naturally, that's what you can knock down a high percentage. When you start taking steps back before you shoot it, that's unnatural.

    Although, I was always taught to do that from 3rd grade through the end of high school. Every coach I had said the worst shot in basketball is a shot with your feet on the 3 point line.
    I think some of you are taking this "step back" a little too literally or maybe not literally enough.

    J'Ob is a fan of open and spot up 3 pointers. He's not wanting you to catch the ball in rhythm, then take a step back 3. He wants you to take that step back before you receive the ball.

    He's pretty much just saying if you're going to be on the line or just in front, why not take a step back beforehand and get yourself in position to take a good 3pt shot instead of a long 2. We're not talking 18ft or so, we're talking foot on or right inside the line.

    I don't really question J'Ob style. He brought the best of guys like Antoine Walker, Walter McCarthy, Tony Delk and Raef LaFrentz. Even Eric Williams and Battie were solid under J'Ob. Aside from Pierce, none of those guys have been as effective.

    I don't care what you say, aside from Pierce, our roster is better then that roster. Delk is a better shooter, but I think Tinsley is a better PG, though a shooting backup PG would be nice. Granger is better (or should/could) be better then Walker. The same goes for Shawne or Dunleavy over McCarthy and Williams. Murphy is better then Raef.

    This leaves us with JO instead of Pierce, and guys like Quis, Foster, Ike and Rush who haven't even been brought into the picture yet.

    Though the fan in us wishes for more activity b/c other teams are making moves, and last season is fresh in our memories. A new coaching staff can bring a new life to playing basketball, so I want to at least see what this team can do under new direction before I start dishing out grades.

    Folks are quickly to point out the skid last season, but don't like to take into affect the injuries to a number of players. The Pacers were like 6-1 after the trade b4 Quis got hurt, but hey we all see what we want to see I guess.

    I just hate having the feeling that we're on a losing streak before the offseason has ended and the regular season has started

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