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Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

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  • Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I have a former player of mine who is beginning a new career as a teacher and basketball coach. As you would expect he is honored to have the opportunity and overwhelmingly enthused for the chance to put his stamp on a program, and to teach and lead a group of young men to success. The questions that I have challenged him to try and answer and define for himself and his program are to clearly state what his priorities are, what his goals are, and to have a true action plan on how to achieve them. As you might expect, the challenge for a young man with little experience to be clear to himself and his own beliefs hasnt been as easy for him as he probably expected when I made him that challenge.

    That led me to posting this from a Pacers perspective. What are truly Coach O'Brien's priorities, and what should they be? I thought the topic merited further discussion.

    Let's review what O'Brien has done so far first of all. It has been reported that he is visiting all current players and meeting with them, and trying to get to know them a little. He has also done some interviews and press conferences outlining his opinions and beliefs, and has come across at least for now as a very straightforward and honest leader, very direct without alot of pomp and circumstance. We also know by the latest interview I read on PD that he has been working out free agents for the summer league team, and no doubt has been at least somewhat involved in the personnel machinations currently taking place. He has put his staff together from his previous stops with little change, and seems to have a head start on his own beliefs and opinions of our current roster, and how he intends to at least preliminarily use it. These are all basic but fundamental things that any incoming new coach would be doing, and the tentative optimism surrounding our fan base is probably somewhat justified. Jim O'Brien has made clear that his mandate is to make this a playoff team immediately, this season.

    My question is: Is this enough?

    Those of us who wanted a new and fresh face and perspective have to be questioning at least somewhat still our new direction. I haven't heard one bit of discussion coming from Conseco Fieldhouse about beginning a long range plan that can lead us to a championship. I see Coach O'Brien's comments and I see a man who can likely improve us in the short run, but who may lack the personality and dynamic thinking to lead us long term to a championship level. I don't see enough "change in culture" in the Pacers way of thinking yet to give me any real true optimistic long term positivity...do any of you?

    Because I think a "change in culture" is really what we need. Not in any one personnel move, or in any one player or individual, but maybe it's time we hold our ownership more accountable than what we have in the past. I think it's clear that Herb and Mel Simon don't have any more of a long term view of driving to win a title than our management does, and that lack of drive, risk taking approach comes from the top, and no where else.

    The Pacers are on a treadmill to mediocrity, and are in danger of falling much further behind the rest of the league than any of us probably realize or want to admit. Someday I may delve deeper into the lack of use of new data systems to analyze players and teams, but for now it appears to me that the Pacers continue to react to problems this summer instead of trying to get ahead of the curve.

    Jim O'Brien is personally working out guys for our summer league team, guys who won't likely play much for us this season, and almost surely won't be members of our roster when and if we become championship contenders again. How does this drive our fan base and grow it.....how will this change the culture from an organization who seems content to me of being just barely into the playoffs to a team on the leading edge of a decade or more of championship runs every season?

    Maybe it's just my mood today, but the same issues that bothered me so much at the end of the season are still bothering me today. A lack of seeing ahead, a lack of long term vision and planning, and a lack of willingness to think outside the mainstream to solve problems and break new ground. My only new true thinking about this is that Im starting to blame ownership much more than anyone else. The only reason any of these issues exist is because the leaders of the organization allow them to.

    The death of Coach Terry Heoppner this week cause the state of Indiana to lose such a dynamic leader in sports. Coach Hep was a true model of the type of drastic and dynamic actions I think we are going to have to create as an organization. Not one person believes that Coach Hep wouldn't have turned IU football into a great program given enough time, at least those who had met him and been infected by his enthusuasm and drive and dynamic way he had to inspire people.

    Who will be the Indiana Pacers version of Coach Hep? I do not see one, and even worse I don't see any evidence that the Pacers think they need one. I see a Colts organization who is the best run team in the NFL, coming off a championship season, building a new state of the art stadium, who has a hall of fame level coach, quarterback, reciever, and President. In the short attention span internet world we live in, shouldnt the Pacers and their true diehard fans be worried about them becoming an afterthought in their own city? Do Mel and Herb Simon have any envy at all of Jim Irsay, or are they just happy being in the league, making money, and being mediocre? They have yet to show any sense that they have what it takes from an ownership level to get involved in either selling a vision or acquiring the talented people who do to achieve it.

    Herb and Mel, you've been great in your era, and you've helped and achieved alot of things. Things have been much better than in your predecessor's tenure. But your time and our patience is running out. I'm sure there are those who don't crave winning as much as I do or some others do, and that is ok. But the only reason to follow a team for this long with this little return is the drive and effort and BELIEF that all this faith and time and money and desire is going to be fulfilled someday with a championship to celebrate. From my perspective, you don't look like ownership and an organization that is going full bore to win a title. And if you stay stuck in the 80's and 90's way of thinking and operating, you'll never win a title.

    We need a culture change from this organization right now, today. Come up with a long term goal and vision, sell us and lead us to believe in that goal. Don't present some stupid slogan in a few days or weeks, and don't try and tell us that Jim O'Brien is such a great coach that he by himself is gooing to make all the difference....we all want to believe it, but we know better. Get out into the public and sell it, don't just stay hunkered down in downtown Indianapolis, but promote the entire state. How telling was it that this week the Indianapolis Colts had a promotional event at Springs Valley High School, French Lick Indiana, the home of Larry Bird. Autographs, players, games, cheerleaders....thousands of new young Colts fans being created RIGHT IN THE HOMETOWN OF LARRY LEGEND! Any plans announced from Conseco to do anything like that? No......

    Forget coaching changes, Bird and Walsh, and Jermaine O'Neal. I think the changes we need start with ownership. Most of us on this forum grew up watching games on Channel Four, watching in my case Clark Kellogg, Chuck Person, then Dale Davis and Reggie Miller, and became through the love of the sport Pacer fans for life. But the kids that are young and impressionable now, who are forming those life long "fanships" for sports, are turned off by the Pacers, and rightly so. The Colts do almost everything right, and the Pacers do almost everything wrong, but worse yet either don't care or have their heads too far stuck in the sand to realize it. Either way we need a drastic change, before this forum becomes irrevalent to anyone who doesn't live in the Pacers new future hometown.

    As draft day approaches, no one is "on the clock" more than Mel and Herb Simon....fans, the clock is ticking.


    As always, this is just my opinion.

  • #2
    Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    A few points:

    1) That is maybe, maybe, the best post I have ever read on here.

    2) I agree with you 100% with your points about the Colts. I know there are going to be those that say "It's easy for the Colts, they have the best player in the National Football League." But Irsay (like him or not) did everything possible to allow this team to win. It goes so much further than just having Manning or Harrison. Unlike the Pacers, the Colts hired an experienced executive with substance (Bill Polian) who has proven he can win in the NFL.

    What did Walsh do? He proved how out of touch he was when he hired Larry Bird as executive. What does Walsh think? That people are only going to like the team if there is an NBA legend who was born in your state (but didn't play for your franchise) running the show?

    Irsay didn't look for a big name former player as President of the team. He looked for someone with SUBSTANCE.

    Bird as coach, Thomas as coach, Bird as President.......it seems to me like Walsh thinks that people in Indiana are only going to watch the team if former big names are hired to run the show.

    3) The Pacers *ARE* an afterthought in their own city/state. I watched the Indy local news when I was up at IU. The Colts are all that is talked about.

    4) I couldn't agree with you more about the Pacers PITIFUL marketing attempts to the rest of the state. Sarcastically, the Colts/Pacers should switch the "Indianapolis/Indiana" names The Pacers need to be called the INDIANAPOLIS Pacers because it's as if they don't exist to the rest of the state. The Colts would be better suited as the INDIANA Colts because they actually try to make a connection with the rest of the state.

    I live down in New Albany, Indiana. The Pacers have NEVER done anything to try to win fans down here. I remember about 4 years ago when Nick Harper and a couple of other players went to a local elementary school. The Colts also took their trophy across the river to Louisville. Having a couple of players come to the elementary school helped the community identify with the Colts. There is a HUGE Colts fanbase down here, and there has been for several years...long before they won the superbowl.

    I have never really been able to find any other Pacers fans around here, not even when they were making a trip to the finals 7 years ago. But then again I can't blame anyone. The Pacers have done nothing to market down here.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 06-24-2007, 04:31 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

      It is my belief, due to issues both Adam and T-Bird talk about, that we will very soon be in danger of losing the Indiana Pacers to another city. The cracks in the foundation are growing hourly.

      Excellent posts, guys.

      -Bball
      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

      ------

      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

      -John Wooden

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

        My God, I have seen the future and the future's name is Tbird.

        I will disagree with my good friend Adam and say that this was not "maybe" the best post I've ever read on this forum. This IS the best post I've ever read on this forum.

        Oh if only you were around 7 years ago.... When I made the statement "treadmill to mediocrity" then I was litterally swarmed and beaten upon by the flock who saw nothing but great things from what they considered the young guns.

        Of course I have always blamed Walsh for every single solitary thing you have just said, however you are correct. They are the one who harbor this attitude.

        Making the playoffs is the gold standard to Donnie Walsh, always has been always will be.

        Look at last season, were they upset because the entire franchise was tumbling? No, they were upset because they didn't make the playoffs.

        You are going to be skewered by some on here for this post, but I am going to make it my mission in life to defend this post and I know others will have your back as well.

        Excellsior to you sir!!!!!



        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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        • #5
          Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

          My only comment is let's see what takes place this summer. They've hired a coach - that is step one, OK, let's see what other player moves are made this summer. I think it is rather obvious that they are looking to trade JO - and any trade involving him will be a huge move that will influence the frnachise for the next 5 years or so. Maybe I'm misreading your post, but I think we need to see what happens the next 60 days.

          I suppose this is a good thread to say this, and this is much more general than responding to your post TBird. I reject the whole notion that seems to be the prevailing thought now-a-days that the Simons, Walsh and Bird only want to make the playoffs. I don't buy that as the goal, I believe they all want to win a championship very badly - Bird too. I realize it is very popular these days to say otherwise, but I believe what I believe and I believe TPTB want to win a championship very badly.

          Of course they haven't won one yet, but that is not proof that they aren't trying.

          I could site example after example of them going for a championship, and I will if someone want me too, but for right now I'll leave it there

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

            All this talk of "vision" and "direction" makes for some wonderful speeches, but flat out, fellas, we don't need vision, we need talent. We need some ballers.

            The Spurs have vision, but they also have Duncan and Parker. The Lakers had a visionary in Jackson, but they also had Shaq and Kobe.

            How about we make some trades and draft picks to bring in some guys that can hit an open twenty footer, and then tbird can resume his eight paragraph opuses.
            2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

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            • #7
              Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

              Nice post T-bird. You always put a lot of time and focus in your post and we love it, thanks again. I am with when you talk about winning, our team is becoming a joke. TPTB need to make smarter decisions, and though I would put some of the blame on the owners, I put even more of it on Bird and Walsh. I sure hope they are cooking up something good before this weeks draft.
              Avatar photo credit: Bahram Mark Sobhani - AP

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              • #8
                Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

                I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

                So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

                It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.
                “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

                “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                  I want to add this: The Pacers may have a lot of problems and have a lot of work to do, but I won't for a single day question the attitude or motivation of management or the owners.
                  “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

                  “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                    Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
                    I want to add this: The Pacers may have a lot of problems and have a lot of work to do, but I won't for a single day question the attitude or motivation of management or the owners.
                    Don't worry, I'll do it for you!

                    -Bball
                    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                    ------

                    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                    -John Wooden

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                      Interesting perspective, but it really is your opinion and how you feel about the situation!!! I honestly cant judge the situation now because, 1. Rick is gone and we have a new coach 2. Everyone wants to win a championship, so just because they say they just wanna make the playoffs doesn't mean they don't want to go deep in the playoffs. I mean Utah, had that same vision this year and they made it as far as the WCF. and 3. You have to really see what happens over the next couple of months to really judge your expectations of this season, Everything read or written on this board is pure speculation and rumors, so until something actually gets done, There's no sense expecting the worse unless they decide to keep this current roster instead of trying to get better!!!

                      That's just my take
                      R.I.P. Bernic Mac & Isaac Hayes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                        Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
                        I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

                        I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

                        So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

                        It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.


                        This is by far the best post in this thread.

                        I just want to add this, if there is anyone that believes TPTB didn't go for a championship with JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo during Reggie's last season or two, then I think you aren't seeing things clearly, because there is no doubt in my mind they went for it. They knew that it was a little risky because of the character of some of those players, but as Donnie Walsh said he fell in love with talent and why did he fall in love with talent, so the team could win 45 games and make the playoff NO WAY, he fell in love with talent because he wanted to win a championship and he sacrificed character and as it turns out franchise reputation in order to go for it.

                        Isn't that rather obvious. And as LA pointed out since that fell apart two years ago, they have been trying to dig out from the mess.

                        You can question their judgment, but to question their motivation I think is just 100% wrong

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                          Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
                          I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

                          I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

                          So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

                          It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.
                          I don't think anyone is trying to prove you wrong, but just like everyone posting on here your post is just an opinion. And who said anything about about "good enough"? T-bird's post got praise because it came from his heart, and sure there was emotion in there, and that is why we gave him props.
                          Avatar photo credit: Bahram Mark Sobhani - AP

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                            On the subject of personnel moves from the past, with regards to the Pacers pursuit of the ultimate goal of winning a championship:

                            We did not trade for Ron Artest and Brad Miller with the expectation that obtaining them would lead to a title contender. We did that to get out from under a huge financial obligation to Jalen Rose. I would suspect that those two players turned out to be better than the Pacers expected, although you'd never hear anyone admit that.

                            The Pacers in turn Trading Brad Miller in a sign and trade, acquiring Scot Pollard, was also not a championship move. While you can argue the relative merit of Miller's contract, no one can say that from a winning perspective that that move helped us at all.

                            On the brink of a title, the Pacers traded a key role player/6th man type in Antonio Davis to Toronto for the 5th draft pick. Again, thats a move that just as easily couldve worked out long term to our benefit if not for some bad fortune on Jonathon Bender. But no one can sanely argue that the team they put on the floor that season was better off without Antonio Davis as a key component....even though I know that the argument exists that it helped Austin play a role, and I do know we made our lone finals appearance that very season. We made it though IN SPITE of that trade, not because of it.

                            In a nutshell, and Im not always saying each decision is wrong, but the Pacers tend to settle for being pretty good instead of reaching for the chance to be a champion. That's how I saw their philosophy from the top on down for most of the Simon's tenure. I might not have totally agreed with the vision, but at least they had one.

                            But I just see our organization as slipping, falling behind as others pass us by. Maybe its the cyclical nature of sports in general, but our future looks bleak to me, both on the court but off of it as well.

                            The Simon's are in their 70's people, and its likely they wont win a title in their years as ownership. Soon, its reasonable to believe that as our teams slips into the dreaded "treadmill to mediocrity" I mentioned earlier, that they won't want to lose the millions necessary to keep this up might look for a buyer.....and there arent any reasonable candidates Im aware of in Indianapolis.

                            I just feel that time has passed the Simon's and Donnie Walsh by. And no matter how you slice it, its going to be 25 yrs of ownership/management from this group with only 1 paltry trip to the Finals....and to my way of thinking, that isnt good enough.

                            It's time to hold Melvin and Herb Simon accountable for the problems and issues our team has, they set the culture and standards that the entire organization has to live by. If the Pacers fail, the buck in the end has to stop with them. I do not believe that these two older, classy gentlemen have it in them to truly lead an organization into the next era and develop a championship worthy organization. They've had 25 years or so to prove me wrong and they havent done so....whether you believe its been bad luck, lack of caring/effort/sacrifice or whatever else, the facts remain the same. It's sad to say, but the Pacers are much closer to becoming the Atlanta Hawks for the next generation of fans that many of you seem to want to admit.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

                              I'm also going to have to whole heartedly agree with Los Angeles on this post. Normally, I enjoy what T-bird post, but this post has a "sky is falling" type of emotion tied to it. The only reason the franchise is in the situation it's in is because WE DID GO FOR BROKE, but it didn't work out!

                              Originally posted by As far as Bball's comment of:
                              we will very soon be in danger of losing the Indiana Pacers to another city. The cracks in the foundation are growing hourly.
                              Your view is rather insulting to anyone that believes in this franchise. Are you wishing for that to happen? Do you want the rest of us to be as miserable as you always seem to be?

                              Just because the franchise isn't run like you want isn't reason to fear the "Mayflower" trucks.
                              Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 06-24-2007, 07:20 PM.
                              ...Still "flying casual"
                              @roaminggnome74

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