Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

  1. #1

    Default Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I have a former player of mine who is beginning a new career as a teacher and basketball coach. As you would expect he is honored to have the opportunity and overwhelmingly enthused for the chance to put his stamp on a program, and to teach and lead a group of young men to success. The questions that I have challenged him to try and answer and define for himself and his program are to clearly state what his priorities are, what his goals are, and to have a true action plan on how to achieve them. As you might expect, the challenge for a young man with little experience to be clear to himself and his own beliefs hasnt been as easy for him as he probably expected when I made him that challenge.

    That led me to posting this from a Pacers perspective. What are truly Coach O'Brien's priorities, and what should they be? I thought the topic merited further discussion.

    Let's review what O'Brien has done so far first of all. It has been reported that he is visiting all current players and meeting with them, and trying to get to know them a little. He has also done some interviews and press conferences outlining his opinions and beliefs, and has come across at least for now as a very straightforward and honest leader, very direct without alot of pomp and circumstance. We also know by the latest interview I read on PD that he has been working out free agents for the summer league team, and no doubt has been at least somewhat involved in the personnel machinations currently taking place. He has put his staff together from his previous stops with little change, and seems to have a head start on his own beliefs and opinions of our current roster, and how he intends to at least preliminarily use it. These are all basic but fundamental things that any incoming new coach would be doing, and the tentative optimism surrounding our fan base is probably somewhat justified. Jim O'Brien has made clear that his mandate is to make this a playoff team immediately, this season.

    My question is: Is this enough?

    Those of us who wanted a new and fresh face and perspective have to be questioning at least somewhat still our new direction. I haven't heard one bit of discussion coming from Conseco Fieldhouse about beginning a long range plan that can lead us to a championship. I see Coach O'Brien's comments and I see a man who can likely improve us in the short run, but who may lack the personality and dynamic thinking to lead us long term to a championship level. I don't see enough "change in culture" in the Pacers way of thinking yet to give me any real true optimistic long term positivity...do any of you?

    Because I think a "change in culture" is really what we need. Not in any one personnel move, or in any one player or individual, but maybe it's time we hold our ownership more accountable than what we have in the past. I think it's clear that Herb and Mel Simon don't have any more of a long term view of driving to win a title than our management does, and that lack of drive, risk taking approach comes from the top, and no where else.

    The Pacers are on a treadmill to mediocrity, and are in danger of falling much further behind the rest of the league than any of us probably realize or want to admit. Someday I may delve deeper into the lack of use of new data systems to analyze players and teams, but for now it appears to me that the Pacers continue to react to problems this summer instead of trying to get ahead of the curve.

    Jim O'Brien is personally working out guys for our summer league team, guys who won't likely play much for us this season, and almost surely won't be members of our roster when and if we become championship contenders again. How does this drive our fan base and grow it.....how will this change the culture from an organization who seems content to me of being just barely into the playoffs to a team on the leading edge of a decade or more of championship runs every season?

    Maybe it's just my mood today, but the same issues that bothered me so much at the end of the season are still bothering me today. A lack of seeing ahead, a lack of long term vision and planning, and a lack of willingness to think outside the mainstream to solve problems and break new ground. My only new true thinking about this is that Im starting to blame ownership much more than anyone else. The only reason any of these issues exist is because the leaders of the organization allow them to.

    The death of Coach Terry Heoppner this week cause the state of Indiana to lose such a dynamic leader in sports. Coach Hep was a true model of the type of drastic and dynamic actions I think we are going to have to create as an organization. Not one person believes that Coach Hep wouldn't have turned IU football into a great program given enough time, at least those who had met him and been infected by his enthusuasm and drive and dynamic way he had to inspire people.

    Who will be the Indiana Pacers version of Coach Hep? I do not see one, and even worse I don't see any evidence that the Pacers think they need one. I see a Colts organization who is the best run team in the NFL, coming off a championship season, building a new state of the art stadium, who has a hall of fame level coach, quarterback, reciever, and President. In the short attention span internet world we live in, shouldnt the Pacers and their true diehard fans be worried about them becoming an afterthought in their own city? Do Mel and Herb Simon have any envy at all of Jim Irsay, or are they just happy being in the league, making money, and being mediocre? They have yet to show any sense that they have what it takes from an ownership level to get involved in either selling a vision or acquiring the talented people who do to achieve it.

    Herb and Mel, you've been great in your era, and you've helped and achieved alot of things. Things have been much better than in your predecessor's tenure. But your time and our patience is running out. I'm sure there are those who don't crave winning as much as I do or some others do, and that is ok. But the only reason to follow a team for this long with this little return is the drive and effort and BELIEF that all this faith and time and money and desire is going to be fulfilled someday with a championship to celebrate. From my perspective, you don't look like ownership and an organization that is going full bore to win a title. And if you stay stuck in the 80's and 90's way of thinking and operating, you'll never win a title.

    We need a culture change from this organization right now, today. Come up with a long term goal and vision, sell us and lead us to believe in that goal. Don't present some stupid slogan in a few days or weeks, and don't try and tell us that Jim O'Brien is such a great coach that he by himself is gooing to make all the difference....we all want to believe it, but we know better. Get out into the public and sell it, don't just stay hunkered down in downtown Indianapolis, but promote the entire state. How telling was it that this week the Indianapolis Colts had a promotional event at Springs Valley High School, French Lick Indiana, the home of Larry Bird. Autographs, players, games, cheerleaders....thousands of new young Colts fans being created RIGHT IN THE HOMETOWN OF LARRY LEGEND! Any plans announced from Conseco to do anything like that? No......

    Forget coaching changes, Bird and Walsh, and Jermaine O'Neal. I think the changes we need start with ownership. Most of us on this forum grew up watching games on Channel Four, watching in my case Clark Kellogg, Chuck Person, then Dale Davis and Reggie Miller, and became through the love of the sport Pacer fans for life. But the kids that are young and impressionable now, who are forming those life long "fanships" for sports, are turned off by the Pacers, and rightly so. The Colts do almost everything right, and the Pacers do almost everything wrong, but worse yet either don't care or have their heads too far stuck in the sand to realize it. Either way we need a drastic change, before this forum becomes irrevalent to anyone who doesn't live in the Pacers new future hometown.

    As draft day approaches, no one is "on the clock" more than Mel and Herb Simon....fans, the clock is ticking.


    As always, this is just my opinion.

  2. #2
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,485

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    A few points:

    1) That is maybe, maybe, the best post I have ever read on here.

    2) I agree with you 100% with your points about the Colts. I know there are going to be those that say "It's easy for the Colts, they have the best player in the National Football League." But Irsay (like him or not) did everything possible to allow this team to win. It goes so much further than just having Manning or Harrison. Unlike the Pacers, the Colts hired an experienced executive with substance (Bill Polian) who has proven he can win in the NFL.

    What did Walsh do? He proved how out of touch he was when he hired Larry Bird as executive. What does Walsh think? That people are only going to like the team if there is an NBA legend who was born in your state (but didn't play for your franchise) running the show?

    Irsay didn't look for a big name former player as President of the team. He looked for someone with SUBSTANCE.

    Bird as coach, Thomas as coach, Bird as President.......it seems to me like Walsh thinks that people in Indiana are only going to watch the team if former big names are hired to run the show.

    3) The Pacers *ARE* an afterthought in their own city/state. I watched the Indy local news when I was up at IU. The Colts are all that is talked about.

    4) I couldn't agree with you more about the Pacers PITIFUL marketing attempts to the rest of the state. Sarcastically, the Colts/Pacers should switch the "Indianapolis/Indiana" names The Pacers need to be called the INDIANAPOLIS Pacers because it's as if they don't exist to the rest of the state. The Colts would be better suited as the INDIANA Colts because they actually try to make a connection with the rest of the state.

    I live down in New Albany, Indiana. The Pacers have NEVER done anything to try to win fans down here. I remember about 4 years ago when Nick Harper and a couple of other players went to a local elementary school. The Colts also took their trophy across the river to Louisville. Having a couple of players come to the elementary school helped the community identify with the Colts. There is a HUGE Colts fanbase down here, and there has been for several years...long before they won the superbowl.

    I have never really been able to find any other Pacers fans around here, not even when they were making a trip to the finals 7 years ago. But then again I can't blame anyone. The Pacers have done nothing to market down here.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 06-24-2007 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,930

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    It is my belief, due to issues both Adam and T-Bird talk about, that we will very soon be in danger of losing the Indiana Pacers to another city. The cracks in the foundation are growing hourly.

    Excellent posts, guys.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  4. #4
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,528

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    My God, I have seen the future and the future's name is Tbird.

    I will disagree with my good friend Adam and say that this was not "maybe" the best post I've ever read on this forum. This IS the best post I've ever read on this forum.

    Oh if only you were around 7 years ago.... When I made the statement "treadmill to mediocrity" then I was litterally swarmed and beaten upon by the flock who saw nothing but great things from what they considered the young guns.

    Of course I have always blamed Walsh for every single solitary thing you have just said, however you are correct. They are the one who harbor this attitude.

    Making the playoffs is the gold standard to Donnie Walsh, always has been always will be.

    Look at last season, were they upset because the entire franchise was tumbling? No, they were upset because they didn't make the playoffs.

    You are going to be skewered by some on here for this post, but I am going to make it my mission in life to defend this post and I know others will have your back as well.

    Excellsior to you sir!!!!!



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,717

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    My only comment is let's see what takes place this summer. They've hired a coach - that is step one, OK, let's see what other player moves are made this summer. I think it is rather obvious that they are looking to trade JO - and any trade involving him will be a huge move that will influence the frnachise for the next 5 years or so. Maybe I'm misreading your post, but I think we need to see what happens the next 60 days.

    I suppose this is a good thread to say this, and this is much more general than responding to your post TBird. I reject the whole notion that seems to be the prevailing thought now-a-days that the Simons, Walsh and Bird only want to make the playoffs. I don't buy that as the goal, I believe they all want to win a championship very badly - Bird too. I realize it is very popular these days to say otherwise, but I believe what I believe and I believe TPTB want to win a championship very badly.

    Of course they haven't won one yet, but that is not proof that they aren't trying.

    I could site example after example of them going for a championship, and I will if someone want me too, but for right now I'll leave it there

  6. #6
    Member bulldog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    1,583

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    All this talk of "vision" and "direction" makes for some wonderful speeches, but flat out, fellas, we don't need vision, we need talent. We need some ballers.

    The Spurs have vision, but they also have Duncan and Parker. The Lakers had a visionary in Jackson, but they also had Shaq and Kobe.

    How about we make some trades and draft picks to bring in some guys that can hit an open twenty footer, and then tbird can resume his eight paragraph opuses.

  7. #7
    Member odeez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    3,776

    Cool Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Nice post T-bird. You always put a lot of time and focus in your post and we love it, thanks again. I am with when you talk about winning, our team is becoming a joke. TPTB need to make smarter decisions, and though I would put some of the blame on the owners, I put even more of it on Bird and Walsh. I sure hope they are cooking up something good before this weeks draft.

  8. #8
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Venice, CA
    Posts
    9,690

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

    I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

    So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

    It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  9. #9
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Venice, CA
    Posts
    9,690

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I want to add this: The Pacers may have a lot of problems and have a lot of work to do, but I won't for a single day question the attitude or motivation of management or the owners.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,930

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I want to add this: The Pacers may have a lot of problems and have a lot of work to do, but I won't for a single day question the attitude or motivation of management or the owners.
    Don't worry, I'll do it for you!

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #11
    J.O. To The T.O. Oneal07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,459

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Interesting perspective, but it really is your opinion and how you feel about the situation!!! I honestly cant judge the situation now because, 1. Rick is gone and we have a new coach 2. Everyone wants to win a championship, so just because they say they just wanna make the playoffs doesn't mean they don't want to go deep in the playoffs. I mean Utah, had that same vision this year and they made it as far as the WCF. and 3. You have to really see what happens over the next couple of months to really judge your expectations of this season, Everything read or written on this board is pure speculation and rumors, so until something actually gets done, There's no sense expecting the worse unless they decide to keep this current roster instead of trying to get better!!!

    That's just my take

  12. #12
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,717

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

    I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

    So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

    It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.


    This is by far the best post in this thread.

    I just want to add this, if there is anyone that believes TPTB didn't go for a championship with JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo during Reggie's last season or two, then I think you aren't seeing things clearly, because there is no doubt in my mind they went for it. They knew that it was a little risky because of the character of some of those players, but as Donnie Walsh said he fell in love with talent and why did he fall in love with talent, so the team could win 45 games and make the playoff NO WAY, he fell in love with talent because he wanted to win a championship and he sacrificed character and as it turns out franchise reputation in order to go for it.

    Isn't that rather obvious. And as LA pointed out since that fell apart two years ago, they have been trying to dig out from the mess.

    You can question their judgment, but to question their motivation I think is just 100% wrong

  13. #13
    Member odeez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    3,776

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I hate to be a naysayer here, but I find very little in that post to be embedded in fact. It's all perception laced with emotion. The Pacers gambled on a JO/Ron/Tins/Jack combo and hoped that Reggie, a few "cool headed" vets on the bench and a methodical coach could keep the ship on course. They lost big time.

    I think that the 2000 era WAS a huge push for a championship. I believe that it WAS an attempt at combining raw talent with a winning culture to put the Pacers on top. I believe that owners and management DO NOT settle for "good enough". And guess what? Nobody here can prove that I'm wrong.

    So, for all it's eloquence and analysis, the seminal post in this thread, and most of the praise it has garnered to this point has no foundation.

    It takes maybe four years, maybe more to recover from that kind of gamble, I don't care if you're Red Auerbach, you're not going to do a better job.
    I don't think anyone is trying to prove you wrong, but just like everyone posting on here your post is just an opinion. And who said anything about about "good enough"? T-bird's post got praise because it came from his heart, and sure there was emotion in there, and that is why we gave him props.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    On the subject of personnel moves from the past, with regards to the Pacers pursuit of the ultimate goal of winning a championship:

    We did not trade for Ron Artest and Brad Miller with the expectation that obtaining them would lead to a title contender. We did that to get out from under a huge financial obligation to Jalen Rose. I would suspect that those two players turned out to be better than the Pacers expected, although you'd never hear anyone admit that.

    The Pacers in turn Trading Brad Miller in a sign and trade, acquiring Scot Pollard, was also not a championship move. While you can argue the relative merit of Miller's contract, no one can say that from a winning perspective that that move helped us at all.

    On the brink of a title, the Pacers traded a key role player/6th man type in Antonio Davis to Toronto for the 5th draft pick. Again, thats a move that just as easily couldve worked out long term to our benefit if not for some bad fortune on Jonathon Bender. But no one can sanely argue that the team they put on the floor that season was better off without Antonio Davis as a key component....even though I know that the argument exists that it helped Austin play a role, and I do know we made our lone finals appearance that very season. We made it though IN SPITE of that trade, not because of it.

    In a nutshell, and Im not always saying each decision is wrong, but the Pacers tend to settle for being pretty good instead of reaching for the chance to be a champion. That's how I saw their philosophy from the top on down for most of the Simon's tenure. I might not have totally agreed with the vision, but at least they had one.

    But I just see our organization as slipping, falling behind as others pass us by. Maybe its the cyclical nature of sports in general, but our future looks bleak to me, both on the court but off of it as well.

    The Simon's are in their 70's people, and its likely they wont win a title in their years as ownership. Soon, its reasonable to believe that as our teams slips into the dreaded "treadmill to mediocrity" I mentioned earlier, that they won't want to lose the millions necessary to keep this up might look for a buyer.....and there arent any reasonable candidates Im aware of in Indianapolis.

    I just feel that time has passed the Simon's and Donnie Walsh by. And no matter how you slice it, its going to be 25 yrs of ownership/management from this group with only 1 paltry trip to the Finals....and to my way of thinking, that isnt good enough.

    It's time to hold Melvin and Herb Simon accountable for the problems and issues our team has, they set the culture and standards that the entire organization has to live by. If the Pacers fail, the buck in the end has to stop with them. I do not believe that these two older, classy gentlemen have it in them to truly lead an organization into the next era and develop a championship worthy organization. They've had 25 years or so to prove me wrong and they havent done so....whether you believe its been bad luck, lack of caring/effort/sacrifice or whatever else, the facts remain the same. It's sad to say, but the Pacers are much closer to becoming the Atlanta Hawks for the next generation of fans that many of you seem to want to admit.

  15. #15
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indy's Wild Wild West Side: 8 sec-check...Club Rio-check...Cloud 9-check
    Age
    40
    Posts
    5,933

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I'm also going to have to whole heartedly agree with Los Angeles on this post. Normally, I enjoy what T-bird post, but this post has a "sky is falling" type of emotion tied to it. The only reason the franchise is in the situation it's in is because WE DID GO FOR BROKE, but it didn't work out!

    Quote Originally Posted by As far as Bball's comment of:
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    we will very soon be in danger of losing the Indiana Pacers to another city. The cracks in the foundation are growing hourly.
    Your view is rather insulting to anyone that believes in this franchise. Are you wishing for that to happen? Do you want the rest of us to be as miserable as you always seem to be?

    Just because the franchise isn't run like you want isn't reason to fear the "Mayflower" trucks.
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 06-24-2007 at 07:20 PM.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  16. #16

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    It's time to hold Melvin and Herb Simon accountable for the problems and issues our team has, they set the culture and standards that the entire organization has to live by. If the Pacers fail, the buck in the end has to stop with them. I do not believe that these two older, classy gentlemen have it in them to truly lead an organization into the next era and develop a championship worthy organization. They've had 25 years or so to prove me wrong and they havent done so....whether you believe its been bad luck, lack of caring/effort/sacrifice or whatever else, the facts remain the same. It's sad to say, but the Pacers are much closer to becoming the Atlanta Hawks for the next generation of fans that many of you seem to want to admit.
    The Simons have made it clear that Donnie Walsh was their man and all that he did was right. The Simons were reluctant owners. They bought the pacers in the dog days to save the team from leaving Indy and they deserve all the credit for that. They absorbed huge financial loses over the years as a gesture of good will to the city. To say the Simons aren't good owners anymore is pretty sad but you are correct that they neglected the team and the direction it went. Their main focus was to help keep the downtown and Indy viable and in that they succeeded. Their focus wasn't to win the nba chamionship. Without the Simons we would all be bulls fans and in the early days when you went to Market Square half the peole were just that. Rag on Donnie and now on Bird if you like but don't forget who saved this team. The Simons don't make personnel decisions and until recently their yearly team salary was pretty high.

  17. #17
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Coliseum
    Posts
    6,248

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    I am of the same mind as Los Angeles and Roaming Gnome.

    First of all, not in million years would I question the Simons or claim time has passed them by. I feel like the best you can hope for is that ownership provide stability, support and not interfere in basketball operations. That is exactly what we have in the Simons. There is no question they could have made a lot better investment than the Pacers. We could have had Donald Sterling or worse yet Nelson Skalbania who singlehandedly torpedoed hockey. If one sees fiscal responsibility as a lack of support there is something wrong with your equation.

    As far as the front office, I have stated before - they did their job as far as transitioning talent. Miller, Artest, Tinsley, Jackson and Miller. I think the job they did coming off 2000 was impressive. That talent was good enough to challenge for the title. Unfortunately, flaws in people not talent killed that. We have been spoiled by making the playoffs so many years. There are a lot of franchises that never made the playoffs at all - AT ALL - during our run.

    I don't care what any team says, the goal is to make the playoffs - then it's a crap shoot. It should be the goal of every team to make the playoffs. Very, very fews teams are going to have a REAL shot at the championship. Take a look at San Antonio's record before Robinson - then Duncan came along. They sucked! Luck smiled on them in the lotteries. Our luck in the lottery has been - well, unlucky and I will leave it at that.

    Comparing the Colts and Pacers now is unfair. How many years were the Colts mired in medocrity? Did Jimmy Irsay suddenly become this great owner? Where was this perceived Jim Irsay during those LONG years? He was here - always was. It wasn't until fate smiled on the Colts in the form of Peyton Manning that in some eyes Jimmy miraculously became a great owner. If you were around in '94 or '00 and the Colts were around in its 1-13 years at the same time - this whole conversation would be reversed.

    I think the Make It Personal tour was a stroke of genius by the Colts. But it's easy when you are a winner. I think the Pacers had great ideas that exploded on them simply because we didn't have PROfessionals on the court. We had/have idiots.

    In my mind there has been no lack of effort on the Pacers part. Their hand was forced. Chances had to be taken - they didn't work. They gave me a lot of years of pleasure and I'm not going to jump them when they are down. I can wait.

    Seriously - and humorously, what other choice do I have? I'm a Pacers fan.
    Last edited by ABADays; 06-24-2007 at 08:23 PM.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  18. #18
    Smooth tadscout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenfield
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,838
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I want to add this: The Pacers may have a lot of problems and have a lot of work to do, but I won't for a single day question the attitude or motivation of management or the owners.
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

  19. #19
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,930

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Your view is rather insulting to anyone that believes in this franchise. Are you wishing for that to happen? Do you want the rest of us to be as miserable as you always seem to be?

    Just because the franchise isn't run like you want isn't reason to fear the "Mayflower" trucks.
    I'm just saying, if something doesn't change (and it won't without a change in ownership or management), then we best get ready to wave 'bye' to the Pacers because they will lose all casual fan support, most of the corporate support, and some of the core support. There will always be some diehards in the stands but those 100 people won't keep the doors open. Once that happens it will be VERY hard to build that back internally. Either a circling buzzard will swoop in to offer the then ownership a sweet deal in a new city, or some new owner will smell blood in the water and offer a 'can't refuse' type deal for the team.

    How many ways can this team drop the ball before someone in power says "We need real changes"?

    I've got a longer post in me on the subject at hand and the bigger picture but T-bird says this all so much more eloquently than myself.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  20. #20

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How many ways can this team drop the ball before someone in power says "We need real changes"?
    -Bball
    When Herb and Mel pass the running of the team to the next generation of Simons who may be more interested in real changes you may not like the outcome and may miss the old days of their hands-off approach.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Look people, Im not saying that the Simons havent done great things in business, or for the city of Indianapolis. They along with others were instrumental in saving the Pacers back in the 80's, and they've been a big part behind the scenes of the resurgance of the downtown area and in the establishment of Indianapolis as a big time sports town.

    But what I am saying is that all of that is in the past.

    Looking forward from now onward, given how the league, the business, the American culture, and how sports and the NBA operate today, are these the guys you want to own the franchise, or would the purpose of winning a championship be better served under someone else?

    How can you be like me and criticize the team, its personnel decisions, and its general overall direction, and yet absolve the people who own the team from any blame? I'm not saying these guys are Ted Stepien or Donald Sterling, I'm just saying that for now, and for the future of the franchise, we probably will need a different type of ownership vision.

    The Colts are only relevant to the discussion to this point because when the Simon's bought the team, and for most of their ownership, the Colts were horrible. The Pacers didnt have to market themselves as well, because they had no competition for the Indianapolis fan sports dollar, and they still had a deep reservoir of fans from the ABA days buying their merchandise and filling the seats. The world is different now, people have more ways and places to spend their discretionary cash, yet the Pacers in many ways still operate like they did 20 years ago from a business sense.

    Again, Im not trying to bash the Simon's.....but I am saying that you can't blame Walsh and Bird for things without acknowledging that major decisions for this franchise arent made and executed without ownership's stamp of approval.

    If you go by the theory that this franchise jumped the shark that night in Detroit, it must also be at least mentioned that reportedly it was the Simon's who insisted we hang on to Artest, and not only that but embrace him and forgive him, and even have/allow Larry to pose with him on that ridiculous Sports Illustrated cover.

    By all means lets thank the Simon's for their contributions, but let's not deify them either....they remain the ultimate power, and they must take the blame for the Pacers brand falling, and the product suffering.


    Ok, now lets get off the Simon's and on to Jim O'Brien.

    What do we as fans want Jim O'Briens top priorities to be as our new head coach. What do we expect from him, and what do we feel are the most pressing issues he has to fix to make us as successful as we can be?

    Again, I say the most important jobs the head coach has are the following:

    1. Establish a culture of winning, accountability, and success by setting a high standard of excellence and performance.

    2. To identify each guy's different personalities and strengths and use them to mold the teams chemistry in such a way to lead to success.....to create an "atmosphere" of winning, and that has to be done daily in a myriad of ways and adjusted to each individual guy, all the while keeping an overall team philosophy intact.

    3. To hire a strong staff and let them do their jobs.

    4. To play in a strategically smart way based upon the personnel we have on our roster.

    5. To help sell the franchises fans on a vision, and get the players and fans to buy in all the way and COMMIT.

    Ive made it no secret that I wanted a new leader for this team, and not a failed coach from 2 other teams. Having said that, I do believe Jim O'Brien to be a good coach and a fine man, and I suspect he will win about as many games as his talent will allow him to. Do I see him as a dynamic leader and new face of the franchise? No, but I do think he will do a credible and professional job, and most likely given enough talent he can make the playoffs, which is his stated goal this season. Do I think he will win a championship with us or anywhere else? No I do not.

    Regardless, it's good to be talking basketball again this weekend, Ive been away too long and it's good to be able to find time to post again. I always enjoy discussing the Pacers, regardless of what other opinions may exist that disagree with my own. I have a feeling we will have much, much more to discuss in the coming weeks.

  22. #22
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,485

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    .

    Comparing the Colts and Pacers now is unfair. How many years were the Colts mired in medocrity? Did Jimmy Irsay suddenly become this great owner? Where was this perceived Jim Irsay during those LONG years? He was here - always was. It wasn't until fate smiled on the Colts in the form of Peyton Manning that in some eyes Jimmy miraculously became a great owner. If you were around in '94 or '00 and the Colts were around in its 1-13 years at the same time - this whole conversation would be reversed.

    I think the Make It Personal tour was a stroke of genius by the Colts. But it's easy when you are a winner. I think the Pacers had great ideas that exploded on them simply because we didn't have PROfessionals on the court. We had/have idiots.

    I know the Colts got lucky getting Manning. But the Colts make their own luck too. My problem with the Pacers compared to the Colts is that they DON'T EVEN TRY to make fans across the rest of the state. All they care about is the Indianapolis market.

    Let's please not credit the Colts popularity with winning the Super Bowl(not accusing you of that ABA, I just gather that as being the general feeling around here). It has been something that they have been building for several years. As I said, Nick Harper was down here in New Albany I believe 4 (3 at the absolute least) years ago. People were huge Colts fans down here then, it's not something that has just happened since they won the big game. They weren't exactly big time "winners" in 2003/2004, just a very good team (no better than the Pacers had ever been).

    The Pacers NEVER have tried anything down here in the southern part of the state. Not even when they were in the ECF's every year. And I've heard plenty of other complaining about the Pacers lack of marketing outside of Indianapolis to reinforce my belief that it's true.

    The Colts got lucky getting Manning, but they have done plenty more to make their own luck. Jim Irsay was smart enough to get a President with *SUBSTANCE* in Bill Polian.

    Walsh hired Bird as coach, then somehow fell under the notion that Indiana fans would only support a big name with Indiana connections. He grossly misjudged Thomas' popularity (that is, he had none) when he hired him in 2000. He then hired Larry as President (all face/name, no background at all in the field), further supporting my belief that Walsh fell under the crazy (and insulting) belief that fans would only support the team if their was a big name at the helm.

    People weren't supporting Larry Bird through 97-2000, they were supporting the winning ways of the team. Just like during 94-96 they were supporting the team when Larry Brown was the coach (not a legend in the way of Bird)

    Let's take a look at attendance figures: In 1995-96, the team had 29 sellouts at Market Square. In 1997-98, Bird's first year, we just had 14.

    Why did we sellout 29 games in 95-96? Because the team was coming off of 2 straight ECF's appearances, and was a consistant winning team.

    Why just 14 sellouts in 97-98? Because we had been in the lottery the previous year. Larry Legend had 15 less sellouts that year than Brown's team had in 1995-96. Larry Legend didn't bring people to the seats. But in 95/96 people were convinced that the team was a winner.

    My point with all of this is that it doesn't matter if the coach is a big face or not. People were just as supportive to Brown's Pacers as they were Bird's. It didn't matter that Bird was a legend and Brown wasn't. All that matters is winning. Somehow Walsh overrated Bird's popularity and then used that for the Thomas hiring, and used it for the Bird hiring again. Instead of trying to hire big names, just hire someone with substance.....like the Colts did in getting Polian.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Agree Tbird that we need to do all those things.
    In addition think where we would be if we had one of those top-ten picks missing it by being eleventh. The way to rebuild the team is to sink so low that we get decent draft picks. As it is the only top ten draft picks we have on the team are other team's discards. So really stinking has its rewards.
    A new coach who has some people skills will help so that is something to look forward to. I hope that OB can connect with Tinsley and get more out of him and Murphy.
    I'm hoing that this team has turned the corner. We'll see.
    Final point. Until recently the team payroll has been very high and certainly the owners did not get their money's worth. I think those days are over.

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Frankfort, IN
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm also going to have to whole heartedly agree with Los Angeles on this post. Normally, I enjoy what T-bird post, but this post has a "sky is falling" type of emotion tied to it. The only reason the franchise is in the situation it's in is because WE DID GO FOR BROKE, but it didn't work out!
    Not really. Ron going nuclear was completely out of left field. Plenty of people were calling for him to be traded after the throat shot to Hamilton and even more after his request for a month off but that was completely unpredictable.

    However since that day, I struggle to find a really good move the franchise made. There have been some OK ones (AC for Daniels, drafting Granger though IMO that borders on a miracle), but most were bad.

    1. Not immediately distancing yourselves from Ron Artest and taking whatever you could get for him. But he had to be gotten rid of - he'd destroyed an entire season. By being Ron. Then he went and helped destroy another one - long after he should have been gone. By being Ron. It's not just the games he lost but the poisoning of the entire team. If I'd been on a team when a player who'd pulled what he did had been coddled that way, I'd have been PO'd in a major way.

    2. Acquiring Al Harrington. Dumb move. He wasn't going to fit with the team - the one position you were set at was PF and you knew he was going to want the ball. But TPTB wanted to hand the fans a 6'9" pacifier instead of trying to find a shooter or PG with the TE.

    3. Knowing you have trouble at PG and knowing your starter has had repeated health issues, you trade away a very dependable backup PG, pretty much for nothing. Then you don't draft Marcus Williams but pick up a SF when you already have Granger.

    But even then things weren't horrible. Your contract situation was OK, you had some young pieces and there was hope it might somehow fit together - and if it didn't, you could at least swing some deals.

    Then you traded Harrington & Jackson for two poorer players with horrible contracts.

    Jackson had to go. That was easy to see. IMO he should have been told to stay away after the Rio incident but the Pacers decided to tell the world that their whole summer ad campaign was a steaming pile of ...

    Anyway, IMO Jackson should have been gotten rid of for peanuts. Barring peanuts, buy him out.

    Harrington? He didn't fit and was a bad acquisition but he is a talent - and maybe with Jackson gone Granger could spend some time at SG. I don't think that's the best spot for him but you do what you have to. And even if that didn't work, keeping Al would give you a lot more flexibility in dealing JO this summer, if that's the way you decided to go - at least you'd have the position covered.

    So here you are with a really bad salary situation. Amazingly, at this moment it's worse than the Knicks (we have a shot at being under the cap in '09 and you don't unless a deal comes up - don't worry though, I'm confident that in a couple of months I won't be able to say this once Isiah screw up again). You have very few players that would get much interest around the league - JO & Granger are about it. Foster could be dealt but he's getting older and Ike and Daniels have both lost some luster.

    My issue with the Pacers is this - or would be except you help take my mind off the rancid pile my team's become. Management has screwed up, repeatedly and badly, multiple times over the last 3 years. Things are bad and prospects for improvement in the near future aren't good. But Carlisle takes the fall. Not Walsh or Bird. Walsh led the team out of a dark time 20 years ago but you can't live on that forever. It's time for new management - except I think the Simons have pretty much given Walsh a lifetime contract.

    Also, I've said this repeatedly, as have others. I'm sure Walsh would be drinking champagne as much as anyone if the Pacers won a title but IMO his goal has never been to win the title. His goal has been to be consistently good. If given the choice between making a move to give his team a shot at the title or making a move that would help insure the team would be good for the long term, he'll take the second choice every time. He made that decision when he traded AD for the draft pick that would become Bender, he made that decision in the summer of 2000 (that team had at least 1 and maybe 2-3 more runs in them) and he made it again when he didn't sign Brad Miller - or even make him an offer. I know that's a major issue with Pacers fans.

    Unlike Tbird, I don't blame the Simons for much of this, except for Walsh's eternal job security. They haven't been afraid to spend freely and have deferred to DW to make basketball decisions - mostly anyway. But things are bad in Pacerland and getting worse - and the blame lies squarely on Donnie Walsh (Bird was his hire so if Bird sucks it's because DW made a suck hire).
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  25. #25
    Member owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,158

    Default Re: Tbird analysis: The "culture of winning", and calling out the Simon brothers

    Someday you all will get your wish. The Simons will not always own the Pacers. That will be a sad day in all liklihood. For this small market team
    they have stayed the course and provided a mostly handsoff ownership.
    They have spent money on level with higher spending teams.

    Goose with golden egg meet axe!!!

    Be very careful what you wish for.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

Similar Threads

  1. Tbird analysis: What constitutes a "good" 3 point shot?
    By thunderbird1245 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-04-2007, 12:36 PM
  2. Tbird analysis: The "blowout" syndrome and how we might fix it
    By thunderbird1245 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-10-2006, 11:27 PM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 11-08-2006, 02:12 AM
  4. Replies: 25
    Last Post: 11-06-2006, 01:10 PM
  5. Good article calling out "Big Shot Bob" Horry
    By flakcatcher in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-20-2005, 10:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •