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Thread: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

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    Default Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    So there has been a flood of trade rumors recently. At first i was kinda for the idea of a big trade, now i think we need to stand pat with just a little tinkering. Where i'm going with is let's keep the team together, trade off foster or someone else for a mid first round pick. Use the pick to get a SG, or Pg. I think dunleavy and murphy will have better years than lasts, plus they were only with the pacers for only half the year. Let them play under neithe o'brien for half the year, if we are a sub .500 team or better maybe do alittle tinkering and see where that goes. But if by mid next season we are totally tanking i say blow up the team at that time and start to rebuild. Plus at the trading deadline teams will be willing to give more away in talent so they can make a push for the playoffs which gives us more leverage.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    consider it done boss.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    I think we should have started rebuilding last summer allready. Delaying the inevitable yet again is not something I would like to consider.
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I think we should have started rebuilding last summer allready. Delaying the inevitable yet again is not something I would like to consider.
    The problem is, a year ago you had some pieces you could either start a team with or use in trades to get something good.

    Now you don't and your cap situation is really bad.

    The talent level on the team has dropped monstrously over the past year. The long-term salary commitment has risen monstrously over the same period. That's not good - other than JO and Granger, you don't have much to trade with.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I think we should have started rebuilding last summer allready. Delaying the inevitable yet again is not something I would like to consider.
    We started re-building as soon as we had to trade Artest. So we started about 18 months ago. The problem is the pacers first had to get rid of a few players in order to move on, and because they had to and still have to get rid of a few players the process takes longer when you "have to rid" your franchise of a few players.

    Of course we could argue all day about re-building vs re-loading, re-tooling - I don't know what you want to call it - I'd rather call it "ridding the franchise of a few players". I suspect this summer will finish the process of getting rid of certain players

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    Member Erik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    personally i'd like to give this squad a fresh chance with a new coach. if things don't work out, then later on we can aim for a better chance to pick up eric gordon

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    I rather agree with Mal....Maybe move Harrison and Marshall, Green...pick up a spot up shooter then let's see how things work out. Most of the time when major changes are made to teams they go downhill...

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    I'd much rather just start the full rebuild now. The longer we wait it out with our current mediocre roster, the longer it'll be before we return to being a relevant NBA team.


    The rumored Lakers deal give us a potential dominant force in Bynum, a lot of good young pieces to work with (Farmar, #19, 2008 1st, even Kwame), and a lot of salary relief. Hopefully Murphy and Tinsley have good individual seasons so we can move them. If Murphy can play like he did in Golden State (15 & 11) he's tradeable If we can get rid of even one of our big contracts we'll be under the cap.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    First of all, I disagree with waiting to see what O'Brien can do with our current roster. I've longed for the day that Tinsley is moved. Some think that with a new coach his game will be revived. I don't care for the way he plays defense, I don't like his shot selection or decision making.

    Don't even get me started about O'Neal....... its time, past time to re-make this team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    If Murphy can play like he did in Golden State (15 & 11) he's tradeable If we can get rid of even one of our big contracts we'll be under the cap.

    Y2J

    I've seen a lot of other people mention this about Murphy. I'm gonna pick on you but I'm really curious as to why some posters think like this. My guess is that some are focusing on his contract more than thay should. I could care less how much any of our players make. I'm only interested whta they can do to help the Pacers win.

    Heres the problem I have with your comment.

    If Murphy is giving us 15 & 11, why in the world would you want to move him?

  10. #10
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Heres the problem I have with your comment.

    If Murphy is giving us 15 & 11, why in the world would you want to move him?
    Betcha a quarter he doesn't get 15&11 this season. That said, I'll take a crack at answering:

    * Because he'll give back more on the other end?
    * Because he'd get in the way of guys that need development minutes?
    * Because we've got way too many big men, and not enough backcourt help?
    * Because he's paid like a superstar but he's not good enough to be a starter?

    Take your pick.
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    * Because he'll give back more on the other end?
    I choose this one!

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Pretty much for most of the reasons Anthem said. He's soft and a poor defender, and although he can score and rebound, I don't think he'd be much of a factor on the win/loss record of such a young team. But if we move J.O., I think he could be one of our top scoring options, so 15 ppg isn't out of the question i.m.o., especially with the offense O'Brien likes to run. Hopefully he plays well enough for some team to think he could be a valuable piece to their team in the mold of say, Memo Okur or Brad Miller, and is willing to give us expiring contracts in return. I haven't checked it out or took into account resigning our own guys, but if we could move Murphy for expirings, we could be far enough under the cap to sign someone to a max contract as soon as next offseason.
    Last edited by Y2J; 06-24-2007 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    If the Pacer stay pat with the roster they have ( something looking more likely each day) after next season their cap number will be at $ 69.075 million or at least 12 mil OVER the cap. The only way we get under the cap is if Jermaine opts out and we get absolutely nothing for him. That would put the Pacers at 48 mil about 9 mil under the cap , enough to sign a medium level free agent.

    Unless a team is far under the cap no one can take on JO's 21 mil and give us nothing in return so if JO is dealt expect to take back at least 15 mil in salary leaving the Pacers still 6 mil OVER the cap.

    The only way to get enough under the cap to sign a max level free agent would be to let Both JO go and Foster to also opt out of his contract that saves the Pacers 27.5 million . That puts you at 42 mil against a cap of 57 giving you almost 15 million to sign a free agent.

    Even if you got expiring contract for Murphy it would have to be this season you trade him. Waiting till next summer means they would not expire till after next season.

    Any thoughts of signing a big name free agent are pretty much useless. without finding someone to take JO and piggybacking a bad contract with him and accepting a young player , a pick and a boat load of expiring deals.
    Last edited by diamonddave00; 06-24-2007 at 12:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    If the Pacers leave things alone with the exception of a few minor trades we can expect to see an unhappy J.O. wich leads to a bad record once again. Look at this roster, does anyone see anything close to a contender in the VERY weak eastern confrence? This has been said many times before and I completely agree, if the Pacers goal is to make the playoffs every year but lose in the 1st round then move forward with this team. If you really want to once again become a contender we have to accept the fact we must move J.O., hopefully gain some good young peices that can mesh with our existing young talent (Granger, Williams, Harrison), and maybe play the lottery game for a few more years and see what happens. The only other option is to pray some big name player (Ray Allen, R. Lewis, Marion) wants to play in Indiana WITH a J.O. and we somehow trick that team into taking on one of our very bad contract (Murphy, Tins) in return. Don't see it happening.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by malchow2002 View Post
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    So there has been a flood of trade rumors recently. At first i was kinda for the idea of a big trade, now i think we need to stand pat with just a little tinkering. Where i'm going with is let's keep the team together, trade off foster or someone else for a mid first round pick. Use the pick to get a SG, or Pg. I think dunleavy and murphy will have better years than lasts, plus they were only with the pacers for only half the year. Let them play under neithe o'brien for half the year, if we are a sub .500 team or better maybe do alittle tinkering and see where that goes. But if by mid next season we are totally tanking i say blow up the team at that time and start to rebuild. Plus at the trading deadline teams will be willing to give more away in talent so they can make a push for the playoffs which gives us more leverage.

    Thank you for giving us some insight into your thinking Mr. Walsh. It's nice to see you posting here.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Betcha a quarter he doesn't get 15&11 this season. That said, I'll take a crack at answering:

    * Because he'll give back more on the other end?
    * Because he'd get in the way of guys that need development minutes?
    * Because we've got way too many big men, and not enough backcourt help?
    * Because he's paid like a superstar but he's not good enough to be a starter?

    Take your pick.
    And because he's locked in LONG term and you don't trust that 15/11 to last, just as it hasn't so far. You would be looking for some ability to adjust the roster a little more, which a shorter deal will get you. How about a 15/6/5 shooting guard making the same money as Troy but for only 3 more seasons instead? Fits the team better, adds flexability.

    And he isn't getting 15/11, I agree.

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    Cool Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMac View Post
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    I rather agree with Mal....
    But I haven't even posted anything yet!

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    If the Pacer stay pat with the roster they have ( something looking more likely each day) after next season their cap number will be at $ 69.075 million or at least 12 mil OVER the cap. The only way we get under the cap is if Jermaine opts out and we get absolutely nothing for him. That would put the Pacers at 48 mil about 9 mil under the cap , enough to sign a medium level free agent.

    Unless a team is far under the cap no one can take on JO's 21 mil and give us nothing in return so if JO is dealt expect to take back at least 15 mil in salary leaving the Pacers still 6 mil OVER the cap.

    The only way to get enough under the cap to sign a max level free agent would be to let Both JO go and Foster to also opt out of his contract that saves the Pacers 27.5 million . That puts you at 42 mil against a cap of 57 giving you almost 15 million to sign a free agent.

    Even if you got expiring contract for Murphy it would have to be this season you trade him. Waiting till next summer means they would not expire till after next season.

    Any thoughts of signing a big name free agent are pretty much useless. without finding someone to take JO and piggybacking a bad contract with him and accepting a young player , a pick and a boat load of expiring deals.
    The Indiana Pacers have never signed a big name free agent, well unless you count Saras as a big name free agent.

    Any thoughts of dumping salary to attract free agents is just pure folly.

    There are only two ways out of this situation.

    1. trades

    2. draft

    We don't have a draft pick, so trades are the only options available this season.


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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    [QUOTE=Anthem;565629]Betcha a quarter he doesn't get 15&11 this season. That said, I'll take a crack at answering:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    * Because he'll give back more on the other end?
    Are you sure? With last seasons injury & having Person running the D compared to the coming season with Harter & O'Brien emphasizing the D as well as Murphy's ability to hit from beyond 18ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    * Because he'd get in the way of guys that need development minutes?
    I still see Granger & Williams more as 3's. Murphy plays mainly at the 4 & 5. He might take some minutes away from Diogu, but then again shouldn't Diogu have to earn those minutes? Or better yet, why not play them together?


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    * Because we've got way too many big men, and not enough backcourt help?
    Once again while this is the closest to the best reason, I'm still not buying it. If a guy is giving you a double double why not keep him & look for other ways to upgrade spots that need upgraded?


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    * Because he's paid like a superstar but he's not good enough to be a starter?
    Anthem, you can do better than this....Murphy does have a pretty good sized contract but he is not being paid anywhere near superstar money. Is he overpaid? As I've mentioned before, I could care less how much he makes. If he can help us get some wins, keep him. I'd like to see what he becomes under O'Brien & Harter, especially if theres an O'Neal deal.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    We started re-building as soon as we had to trade Artest. So we started about 18 months ago. The problem is the pacers first had to get rid of a few players in order to move on, and because they had to and still have to get rid of a few players the process takes longer when you "have to rid" your franchise of a few players.

    Of course we could argue all day about re-building vs re-loading, re-tooling - I don't know what you want to call it - I'd rather call it "ridding the franchise of a few players". I suspect this summer will finish the process of getting rid of certain players
    Re-tooling/re-loading are inherently different in my book vs re-building. I never wanted the former and was all for the latter.

    Regards,

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    agreed...this team with a healthy JO and a healthy quis can make the playoffs...
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft View Post
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    agreed...this team with a healthy JO and a healthy quis AND SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED TEAM DEFENSE can make the playoffs...
    fixed.
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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    If we keep Jermaine we need to get a second scoring opition.

    But we should look to trade him and go in a different direction.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone



    That's if the rumored Lakers deal goes down. Of course that's with no further moves, including not resigning Kwame Brown, and with none of our potential draft picks salary added on. Looking at how the salary cap has increased, $60M is a reasonable estimate for the 2009 offseason. So we'd be around $8M under. If we could move any of our big contracts (Murphy, Dunleavy, Tinsley, Foster, or Quis) for expiring, we'd likely have a good chunk of capspace to work with. If we could move any two of those same contracts, we'd be looking at enough to sign just about anyone to the max.

    As for Peck's claim that we can't land free agents - when have we ever tried? We haven't had the cap room to sign anybody. But if you offer enough, they will come. It's not like Indy is Siberia or something.

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    Default Re: Might As Well Leave Things Alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    As for Peck's claim that we can't land free agents - when have we ever tried? We haven't had the cap room to sign anybody. But if you offer enough, they will come. It's not like Indy is Siberia or something.
    As long as Donnie Walsh sits in the catbird's seat at PS&E we will NEVER (seriously) pursue a big name free agent. If this hasn't been made clear from the last 20 years, then nothing has. It is simply not in his plans to get into that stratosphere of team building.

    And the signing of Saras should not be looked upon as a first step and sign that is changing. In fact, the flameout all but guarantees TPTB will be too snake bitten to head down that path again...let alone pursuing an even higher dollar player.

    -Bball
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