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Thread: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

  1. #26

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    JO in the hall of fame is a really good question.

    I really like JO and I would like to see him make it. But does he deserve to? IDK about that.

    He is right on the line as of now.

    He has put up nice numbers since coming to Indiana.

    But we have only made it far in the playoffs with him one time. And his numbers are solid but not great.

    To me, Jermaine is on the level of a Zach Randolph and Shareef Abdual Rahim. Some very nice players, all star type guys, but not on the same level as Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, or Dirk Nowitzki.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    I don't think JO is a HOFer nless he really picks it up in the next couple years. He's never been the best player at his position (KG, Duncan), or the best player in his own conference (Kidd).

    On the topic somewhat, here's a very good Hollinger blog on how messed up the Hall of Fame is:

    NBA needs own Hall of Fame

    by: John Hollinger
    posted: Monday, April 2, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry
    filed under: Insider NBA


    When you're making up a list of great coaches, some of the names are so obvious. Phil Jackson, Roy Williams, Van Chancellor, Pedro Ferrandiz, Mirko Novosel ... I mean, once you say the first one, the other four just kind of roll off your tongue, don't they? Unfortunately, the announcement of the Zen Master's Hall of Fame induction today only highlights Springfield's ridiculously shoddy treatment of the NBA. It's bad enough that they elected five coaches and a referee but not a single player (Adrian Dantley and Chris Mullin were among those who didn't make the cut); what makes it worse is that they continue to select mediocre college coaches and anonymous international ones, at the expense of great pro ones like Dick Motta and Don Nelson.
    I don't mean to put down Roy Williams or the other three guys. But look at the voting patterns in recent years -- it's not the Basketball Hall of Fame, folks, it's the College Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame Plus a Few Other Guys. Over the past 10 years, the institution has inducted 25 coaches and nine contributors ... but only 20 players.
    Wait, it gets worse. Of those 25 coaches, do you know how many got in for succeeding in the NBA -- the game's highest level? FOUR!!!
    Are you kidding me? This is like going to Cooperstown and seeing miles of plaques dedicated to the best AAA managers. In the same span they inducted four NBA coaches (Jackson, Larry Brown, Alex Hannum and Bill Sharman) they've put in eight NCAA women's coaches, four international coaches and even one high school coach.
    It's not like the 20 players were all NBA guys either. Of those 20 players inducted in the past decade, four were ridiculous selections from the "international" group (Drazen Petrovic, Dino Meneghin, Drazen Dalipagic, Hortencia Marcari) and two were Harlem Globetrotters (Marques Haynes and Lynette Woodard).
    Which means they've inducted only 14 NBA players in that decade ... and 20 college coaches. They've inducted John Chaney ahead of Dick Motta, Roy Williams ahead of Adrian Dantley, and Dave Gavitt (commissioner of the Big East) ahead of David Stern (commissioner who saved the NBA).
    I've argued this for a long time, but it's long overdue for the league to set up its own Hall of Fame and ditch any link to Springfield. Better yet, the collegians have helped out by taking the first step. In October, doors will open at the College Basketball Hall of Fame in Kansas City, Missouri; though they say it's to honor players who weren't recognized by Springfield, it's pretty easy to see the boundaries expanding over time.
    That's just one more reason for the NBA to do the same thing. They could even operate it in stealth mode like the college guys are doing, starting out by inducting the Mottas and Dantleys of the world and then slowly stealing Springfield's thunder over time. Plus, the commish could use it to promote the league, too, and if they put it someplace like New York or Chicago it would be a likely money-maker (although if it were up to Stern he'd probably put it in Shanghai).
    But ultimately, it seems like separation is the only way to resolve this thing. Springfield's selections have become so absurd that they're hardly worth taking seriously anymore (seriously ... Mirko Novosel?), and now that the collegians have their own Hall of Fame they can honor as many Lon Krugers and Mike Montgomerys as they want and I won't be offended in the least.
    But perhaps the best argument deals with history. In the big picture, I've long felt that the NBA cared less about its historical legacy than any other sport, and it's high time they took better control of it. This would be one giant step in that direction.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Reggie is getting in on "moments", longevity and being such a marquee guy for one team for so long.

    His stats surely don't suggest he should be in......
    I beg to differ.

    13th all time in points scored.
    22nd all time in FGs made.
    1st all time in 3pt FGs made.
    10th all time in FTs made.
    6th all time in minutes played.

    You add that with being one of the greatest clutch performers in the history of the NBA and the fact he played the game the right way and was the face of a franchise that was among the elite for a decade..... he certainly belongs.

    You can make the "longevity" argument all you want, but name me one player who only played a few years that made it? And I aint talking about guys who played a couple years but got inducted as a coach or for other reasons.

    The HOF is about a player that made his mark in basketball. That stood out among his peers. And Reggie certainly did that. He was one of those players that was known by his first name only. If you were talking hoops and just said Reggie, everyone in the room knew Reggie Miller is who you were talking about.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by naptown View Post
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    You can make the "longevity" argument all you want, but name me one player who only played a few years that made it? And I aint talking about guys who played a couple years but got inducted as a coach or for other reasons.
    Bill Walton. In the modern era he's the only exception that I know of. Go back 30 years and it's a different story - but it was also a very different era. An NBA star who'd made a big name could retire at 30 as a local sports hero and make more money the next year selling cars & insurance and doing local ads, promotion appearances, etc.

    Two interesting players when their times come will be Zo and Grant Hill - clearly they were headed for HOF until injury/disease derailed them.

    I agree with you on Reggie - I'd think he'll be 1st ballot.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by naptown View Post
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    I beg to differ.

    13th all time in points scored.
    22nd all time in FGs made.
    1st all time in 3pt FGs made.
    10th all time in FTs made.
    6th all time in minutes played.
    For a guy averaging only 18.2 ppg for his career, all of those stats are due to longevity.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  6. #31

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Would these numbers get you into the Hall of Fame?

    9 seasons
    6'1" guard
    7.4 points per game
    4.3 assists per game
    38.7 career shooting percentage
    his points and assists averages went DOWN in the playoffs
    zero all-star game appearances
    scored under 10 ppg as a college player

    Oh, it's the 8 championship rings

    K.C. Jones

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...joneskc01.html

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    For a guy averaging only 18.2 ppg for his career, all of those stats are due to longevity.
    And your point is? Name me one guy on the ALL TIME LEADERS list that didnt play a long time. It took Iverson 11 years to crack the top 30 in points. He now rests at number 26 and he has been one of the most prolific scorers of the last decade.

    Playing at a high level for a long time is what gets you in the Hall. Not having 4 or 5 good years surrounded by a bunch of mediocre ones. While Reggie's overall production slowed his last 3 years, some of which was due to his role changing, he was still considered one of the leagues most deadliest long range and crunch time shooters. Til the day he retired.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    For a guy averaging only 18.2 ppg for his career, all of those stats are due to longevity.
    Sure, longevity is one of the requirements to hold those records. However, your focus on his regular season ppg is misplaced.

    His highest scoring averages came when he was 24-25 years old....not at 28-29 like most players. As the team started to develop into a contender, he deferred perhaps to a fault...except during the playoffs. Miller's ability is best measured by his playoff performances where his numbers went up significantly. It's always been crystal clear he was capable of putting up higher numbers during the regular season.

    The truth is, he was unselfish probably to a fault...for many years....and that had much more to do with his regular season ppg than any lack of ability to score the ball.

    Edit: ...and as for Allen Iverson, how much playoff success has he had? Nice regular season numbers though.....I think I'll take Reggie.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 06-22-2007 at 11:23 PM.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    It doesn't hurt that Reggie left the floor as the best Pacer player that final game . ...Arguably, the best player on the floor that night for both teams...

    The Pacers losing that final game of Reggie's career can never be blamed on Reggie. He showed up.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    When I think of the hall of fame - although it does not happen very often, I figure you have to be semi-amazing (in short careers), consistently well above average (your longer career), and be able to carry a team.

    JO's numbers may be good enough to get him in contention, but I don't think until he carries a team, either performing, or leading, that he will be clearly an all star. Reggie has all three.

    May be I expect to much, but I have never really been one for museums.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It doesn't hurt that Reggie left the floor as the best Pacer player that final game . ...Arguably, the best player on the floor that night for both teams...

    The Pacers losing that final game of Reggie's career can never be blamed on Reggie. He showed up.

    -Bball
    If only he hadn't taken his sweet time to lay the ball in a year earlier...he might have had a ring...

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    JO's not HOF material. Needs several more good years statistically coupled with more leading teams deep into the playoffs and less injury shortened seasons to be in contention. His injuries and our playoff slide since the ECF season have not helped him in this area. Not to mention his FG%.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    JO is all hype and no substance. He was exposed after Ron Artest was traded. His chances of making the HoF dwindled considerably at that point. Age and ego aren't going to help him recapture it either.

    When the time came for him to step up, he faltered. We need to take the best offer on the table and move on. The offers won't be getting better.

    -Bball
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    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    He's not even close. He isn't the best at his position during his era, he hasn't competed for a ring with him as the focal point. He still has time left, but unless he gets to the Finals the second option or wins multiple DPY, I think its a no brainer that he isn't.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Exposed? As a non-MVP candidate maybe. But he was a 19/20 9/10 1/2 ast 2/3 blk guy before and after Artest.

    People act like he's Shareef Abdur-Rahim (circa 2007 no less) just because he isn't Tim Duncan.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by naptown View Post
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    I beg to differ.

    13th all time in points scored.
    22nd all time in FGs made.
    1st all time in 3pt FGs made.
    10th all time in FTs made.
    6th all time in minutes played.

    You add that with being one of the greatest clutch performers in the history of the NBA and the fact he played the game the right way and was the face of a franchise that was among the elite for a decade..... he certainly belongs.

    You can make the "longevity" argument all you want, but name me one player who only played a few years that made it? And I aint talking about guys who played a couple years but got inducted as a coach or for other reasons.

    The HOF is about a player that made his mark in basketball. That stood out among his peers. And Reggie certainly did that. He was one of those players that was known by his first name only. If you were talking hoops and just said Reggie, everyone in the room knew Reggie Miller is who you were talking about.
    I tried to preface what I was saying by saying that Reggie Miller is far and away my favorite basketball player of all time. I know all about how good Reggie Miller was.

    And, one of the reasons that he became my favorite player is what I'm talking about.

    He was able to overcome having lesser pure basketball talent than most of the guys that are in the Hall. Despite not being a very good ball-handler, not much of a penetrator, not an astute play-maker and being only an average defender (he did get a lot better as he aged though), he was still able to do enough in this League to make him a bonafide, no-doubt-about it Hall of Famer.

    I'm not saying he doesn't belong. He definitely does. I'm just saying he didn't get their on "pure talent" or more aptly said, I suppose, pure basketball ability.

    He's done it with savvy, smarts, positioning, work ethic, working the refs and a perhaps unequaled understanding of how to find open space on the court. He was great. There's no denying it.

    But look at his All-NBA rankings:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...by_player.html

    There aren't many Hall of Famers that haven't ever made at least 2nd Team All-NBA or All-ABA in their career (Worthy and Drazen are the only two I saw in a quick look, although there could be others like KC Jones who have no selections whatsoever to any team).

    The fact that Reg never made even a 2nd Team All-NBA is somewhat of a testament to the fact that he never had that "trancedent" season. There was never a time he just put it all together and unstoppable over an 82-game season. In terms Pacer fans can easily understand, he never had a season like JO's 3rd place MVP season. Or Gilbert did this year. Or Kobe last year.

    Also look at All Star selections:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...by_player.html

    Reggie has five. As you scroll down, you'll see the number of * (which denote Hall of Famers) get less and less. At the top, they all have * and it stays pretty close to that way until you get under 6 (and those that don't have a *, surely will for the most part, like AI, Duncan, David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, etc.) Maybe half the 6-time All Stars are in. And a lot of the 5-timers are in. But very few 4-timers and 3-timers and under are in. (For reference's sake, JO currently has 6.)

    Obviously, the number of All Star appearances doesn't get you in or leave you out. But it suggests what "level" of player you are.

    But as only a 5-time All Star, Reggie is a LOCK for the Hall. But as far as being a star in comparison to his peers, and as far as general basketball ability, I'd put him on the "level" of guys like Chris Mullin, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, C-Webb and Timmy Hardaway. Are those guys Hall of Famers? I don't know. There's a lot of room for debate on all five of those guys. You could make arguments each way.

    But with Reggie, there isn't any real debate (well, I guess I'm debating it right now, but whatever). When the vote happens, he's getting in. Hands down. Probably by a wide, wide margin.

    I'm just saying I think there would have been a lot more debate if he hadn't scored 8 in 8.9 or done all those other miraculous things he did on national television. It would have left the idea of him being a Hall of Famer up in the air.

    So the "moments" don't get him in, but they solidify it and make it a non-question.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-23-2007 at 08:10 PM.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Nope. I love JO, but he's no HOF player.

    There's no shame in that, though.
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  18. #43

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    I think a better way to approach it would be to ask who in the current NBA is first ballot Hall of Fame worthy?

    -Shaq
    -Duncan
    -Kobe
    -Kidd
    -KG

    Others who will probably make it in, but they're not on the level of those other guys:

    -Nash
    -Dirk
    -TMac
    -Vince
    -Iverson
    -Yao

    Now looking at that list, I actually think JO deserves to get in. He's better than anyone on that second list defensively, and has definitely better than the overrated Vince Carter.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    There aren't many Hall of Famers that haven't ever made at least 2nd Team All-NBA or All-ABA in their career (Worthy and Drazen are the only two I saw in a quick look, although there could be others like KC Jones who have no selections whatsoever to any team).

    The fact that Reg never made even a 2nd Team All-NBA is somewhat of a testament to the fact that he never had that "trancedent" season. There was never a time he just put it all together and unstoppable over an 82-game season. In terms Pacer fans can easily understand, he never had a season like JO's 3rd place MVP season. Or Gilbert did this year. Or Kobe last year.
    I think the biggest factor in Reggie never making 2nd team was the fact he played during the same era as Jordan and Drexler. I love Reggie, but those two were both clearly better at the shooting guard position and deservedly got 1st and 2nd team pretty much every year for the bulk of their careers.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I think a better way to approach it would be to ask who in the current NBA is first ballot Hall of Fame worthy?

    -Shaq
    -Duncan
    -Kobe
    -Kidd
    -KG

    Others who will probably make it in, but they're not on the level of those other guys:

    -Nash
    -Dirk
    -TMac
    -Vince
    -Iverson
    -Yao

    Now looking at that list, I actually think JO deserves to get in. He's better than anyone on that second list defensively, and has definitely better than the overrated Vince Carter.

    Wow, the hall of fame for Tmac? Yao? Vince?

    To be honest with you I'm not even sure Kidd should make the hall of fame, but then I just for whatever reason have never been that big of a fan of his.

    I also question Dirk and Nash, however winning MVP does give you a certain amount of clout so I guess.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Wow, the hall of fame for Tmac? Yao? Vince?

    To be honest with you I'm not even sure Kidd should make the hall of fame, but then I just for whatever reason have never been that big of a fan of his.

    I also question Dirk and Nash, however winning MVP does give you a certain amount of clout so I guess.
    I'd agree that currently, TMac, Yao, and Vince probably don't deserve it. Especially Carter. TMac has to get out of the first round though there is no doubt about that what a joke would it be if he got in without making it past the first round.

    Kidd gets in IMO. Third all time in triple doubles get him in.

    Nash is a back to back MVP hard to look past him.
    Dirk gets a meh. However you'd have to think Dirk will get a ring before its all said and done which puts him in.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Wow, the hall of fame for Tmac? Yao? Vince?

    To be honest with you I'm not even sure Kidd should make the hall of fame, but then I just for whatever reason have never been that big of a fan of his.

    I also question Dirk and Nash, however winning MVP does give you a certain amount of clout so I guess.
    Let me be clear, I HATE Vince Carter. Him and Marcus Camby are my most hated NBA players. But my guess is that Hall of Fame voters will look back on his career favorably. He's so overrated now, I'm sure it will carry on.

    TMac I like better but I wouldn't vote him in if I had the chance. I have great faith that Yao is going to take it to the next level. He's awesome.

    Dirk and Nash are on the fence with me. Neither has been the best player in the league, and I think they both benefited greatly from being white in an almost all black league (see: last 3 MVP awards).

    Kidd, though, is a for sure Hall of Famer. The best point guard of the last decade and in my opinion top 5 of all time and he's the best point guard since Isiah (along with Gary Payton).

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Let me be clear, I HATE Vince Carter. Him and Marcus Camby are my most hated NBA players. But my guess is that Hall of Fame voters will look back on his career favorably. He's so overrated now, I'm sure it will carry on.

    TMac I like better but I wouldn't vote him in if I had the chance. I have great faith that Yao is going to take it to the next level. He's awesome.

    Dirk and Nash are on the fence with me. Neither has been the best player in the league, and I think they both benefited greatly from being white in an almost all black league (see: last 3 MVP awards).
    Kidd, though, is a for sure Hall of Famer. The best point guard of the last decade and in my opinion top 5 of all time and he's the best point guard since Isiah (along with Gary Payton).



    Explain please. Are you trying to say that the color of thier skin and not thier play has merited the MVP honors?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Explain please. Are you trying to say that the color of thier skin and not thier play has merited the MVP honors?
    I don't think Nash or Dirk won an MVP solely because they were white. But do I think it played a factor? Absolutely.

    Nash's race, along with his fun style of play and good attitude and character all played a part in his being chosen twice as MVP. A lot of what people vote for in MVP has nothing to do with what happens on the floor.

    The majority of MVP voters are short white guys. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that at least subconsciously they identified with Nash, himself a short white guy.

    I'll admit I don't think Steve Nash deserved one MVP, much less two. Shaq was far more deserving three years ago and Lebron or Kobe deserved it last year. Dirk's was slightly more deserved, although I would have voted for Duncan or Jason Kidd's 14-9-7.

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    Default Re: Q.O.D. for 6-22-07

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I don't think Nash or Dirk won an MVP solely because they were white. But do I think it played a factor? Absolutely.

    Nash's race, along with his fun style of play and good attitude and character all played a part in his being chosen twice as MVP. A lot of what people vote for in MVP has nothing to do with what happens on the floor.

    The majority of MVP voters are short white guys. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that at least subconsciously they identified with Nash, himself a short white guy.

    I'll admit I don't think Steve Nash deserved one MVP, much less two. Shaq was far more deserving three years ago and Lebron or Kobe deserved it last year. Dirk's was slightly more deserved, although I would have voted for Duncan or Jason Kidd's 14-9-7.

    Intresting...

    Duncan certainly is always a consideration for MVP, however the Nets weren't really that good so I think between the two they would have to choose Dirk over Jason.

    However what made the voters all of a sudden decide to use race as a factor? What were they thinking about 4 years ago when they chose a non-caucasion? or the year before that or the year before that?

    I'm not trying to be argumentive I just am curious to your reasons for that.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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