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Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

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  • #1

    Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

    Why does everyone assume that the deal for Jermaine is going to be or has to be a fair one for the team he is going to?

    I know in a perfect world everyone should be in a win-win situation.

    The fact of the matter is that Indiana is not Los Angeles, New York, Boston, Houston, Philadelphia or Phoenix. The market that the Indiana Pacers are in is hard enough to attract free agents even if you have the cap space and the money to pay them…there is always the question about winter climate, nightspots to party at and other BS that players of any importance actually look at. See Shaq, Vince Carter, Alonzo Moruning (Toronto), these players could have made a difference to a smaller market team, but had the ability to either say they weren’t going to show up and screw the other team…regardless. There’s your perfect world. Unless Kobe can be traded to Chicago or New York for another superstar, draft picks and expiring contracts a “fair trade for the Lakers will not happen (oh, boo hoo!).

    I applaud Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh for standing pat on the Jermaine and Troy Murphy for Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Kwame Brown, filler player and the 19th pick. It’s about time that the Indiana Pacers come out ahead for the first time in their NBA history. This team has been behind the 8 ball in the NBA since its inception in 1976. Part of the wonderful TV revenue still goes to the owner of the Spirits of St.Louis so that the team could be absorbed. The NBA then had a dispersal draft of the remaining NBA players go to all the NBA teams instead of making the ABA teams a little more solvent and competitive…Yeah the Pacers had the worst record of the remaining ABA teams at that time, but the Bulls had a worse record and got Artis Gilmore with the first pick, the Pacers got Wil Jones…yeah that helped. But that should show you how the NBA makes it “fair”. Jeeze, they were getting a payment from all the teams just to come into the league, yet in the long run it was those teams that help change and revitalize the NBA game. Yeah, that was fair then too.

    Many of you on this Digest need to understand the past of the NBA’s dealing with the Pacers over the years…but you don’t because many of you didn’t jump on board the NBA until Michael Jordan was winning championships. To those of you who were here from the beginning of the Pacer franchise, you know and can relate to what I am saying.

    So many of you think that giving Jermaine up for just Bynum, Kwame and the 19th pick will suffice….why do you want to accept that deal, the Pacers are clearly in the drivers seat here…that thanks to one over blown ego of a Mr. Kobe Bryant…If I’m a business man and I’m trying to make a deal for my company, I understand where I can use a weakness of that company to get my company the better deal, I wouldn’t be doing my job
    If I didn’t….I’m not working for the Lakers, I’m working for the Pacers…that’s what ALL of you should be saying and any Lakers fans that say…ohhh that’s not fair, all we would have is JO and Kobe, well that would be two more All Stars then the Pacers would have with that trade.

    The Pacers are negotiating from a position of power here, and it’s about time that Larry Bird learns how too use it if he’s going to run an NBA franchise. The Pacers do not have to trade ANYONE…yeah you heard me…they don’t have to trade anyone. What would it hurt to give this team constructed as it is a shot at a training camp under a new coach, with all the players involved coming into camp off of their summer training programs. If I remember right the Pacers weren’t playing that bad until Marques Daniels went down for the season…that was when then Pacers were exposed as a team without any foundation. What happens if you give Jermaine O’Neal another season, with all the cast of characters and a couple of minor changes???? Clearly the Lakers are the ones who need O’Neal, the Pacers could start rebuilding with Odom, Bynum, Kwames expiring contract and be rid of Murphy’s albatross of a contract (42.2 mill). (Together those two contracts save the Pacers 18 million dollars in cap space next year). That’s what a GOOD business man does, he presents himself with an Attainable goal, but knows that he will still have a fallback plan in case it doesn’t work out….The Pacers are clearly that team.

    Now as far as the Lakers are concerned…They are one of the NBA’s three marquee teams. Their courtside seats are up to $2,300 per ticket. They have unquestionably the NBA’s top player at this stage of his career and probably has 4 years at this level left. Do you keep Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum and pray that this team gets better and makes it out of the first round, or do you bring in a Jermaine O’Neal and a Troy Murphy (both double, double guys on a decent team) and fill in the blanks with role players. You obviously have to resign Luke Walton or sign and trade him for help at point guard…They still have the MLE to use for another player…They could go after attainable players such as Ron Artest and since Sacramento is looking to move him anyway, probably get him in a fire sale. That would make the Lakers contenders in the West overnight, but as they stand reports say that they would rather trade Kobe for players that would still might not fit together in the Lakers system (the Triangle)

    So tell me again why should this be a fair trade for the Lakers?

    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

    I agree to a certain extent, but could you have added this to an existing thread

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

      I've already said this but you laid it out and said it way better!

      All stars like JO usually go for a prospect, a really good player, and a pick. A superstar gets you that and another really good player.

      The Lakers don't want to give up a good player because they want to contend next year, they don't want to have to wait and add more pieces.

      Like I said before, I don't want a fair trade, I want to come out on top.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

        Well put DaSMASH. Pacers did get screwed over coming into the NBA. Why would anyone think that we have to make the LAKERS a better team. PACERS need to get everything the can. The fans here want to watch a winner just as they do there. Do not forget we still have J.T. left with this deal of J.O. & MURPHY. (so who really looses on this deal).lol

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        • #5
          Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

          Good post. Don't forget, besides having to pay the St. Louis owners till the end of time they also had to settle with the Kentucky Colonels AND got no TV revenue for something like 3 years. The ABA teams really got the screws put to them but it was the price that had to be paid. Poor New Jersey - they also had to pay an indemnity to the Knicks. I think that's how they lost Dr. J.
          The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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          • #6
            Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

            Decent points.

            But JO isn't the only player in the League that LA can trade for/sign.

            Not sure why people think the Lakers have to either a) trade for JO, or b) cry themselves to sleep for the next year.

            The Lakers front office is full of those savvy business types you talk about. These are the same guys who's fanbase let them get away with trading Shaq by blaming it on Kobe (according to KB8...er, KB24, anyway). They also convinced Phil to come back. They also traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. Okay, scratch that last one. But they are professional GMs as well. They're not going to make a panic move here. They're the ******* Los Angeles Lakers for Christsakes.

            You're right that we shouldn't roll over for LA. But don't expect them to roll over for us. They have tons of options.
            Last edited by JayRedd; 06-19-2007, 12:44 PM.
            Read my Pacers blog:
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            • #7
              Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

              Originally posted by JayRedd View Post
              Decent points.

              But JO isn't the only player in the League that LA can trade for/sign.

              Not sure why people think the Lakers have to either a) trade for JO, or b) cry themselves to sleep for the next year.

              The Lakers front office is full of those savvy business types you talk about. These are the same guys who's fanbase let them get away with trading Shaq by blaming it on Kobe (according to KB8...er, KB24, anyway). They also convinced Phil to come back. They also traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. Okay, scratch that last one. But they are professional GMs as well. They're not going to make a panic move here. They're the ******* Los Angeles Lakers for Christsakes.

              You're right that we shouldn't roll over for LA. But don't expect them to roll over for us. They have tons of options.
              Point well taken, but you are missing the big picture here.

              They had a deal with Jason Kidd on the table for Bynum....they passesd, those smart, savy businessmen basicly screwed themselves becasue they didn't make that one deal. Now New Jersey won't give them the time of day unless it's Kobe being the one traded to them.

              How long will Phil stick around coaching a team that can't possibly get out of the first round in the west? Answer is he won't!

              The Lakers "smart business savy suits" havent been to the second round since they were bounced in the finals by a Shaq led Laker team...the key here was Sqhaq led... Now it's out that it was Jerry Buss who wanted Shaq traded because of his upcoming "new-bigger" contract, the one Miami gave him anyway...What did the Lakers end up with for Shaq? Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown and Brian Grant.....in other words they ended up with Lamar Odom for Shaq.

              Don''t tell me what KB24 says ....thge trade demand was removed from the website yesterday...What does that tell you?

              What other team is going to give the Lakers a 6'11" power forward-Center who is not yet 30 years old who has been an All star 6 times? The Lakers are a franchise that doesn't rebuild with young players...it's history states that they raid Superstars with expiring contracts for the Glitz & stars of La La land.

              The bottom line is that they are the Goddam Lakers and I as an Indiana Pacer fan can take they're players or leave them, on the other hand they have to come up with a player to compliment Kobe this year or lose him for nothing, or little more than nothing when he opts out in 2 years!

              The Lakers don't have a choice, they will role over for somebody, the Pacers just have a little better deal then anyone else in the east, or even the west will give them.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                I agree to a certain extent. I guess whether JONeal goes to the Lakers or not ( and as a result whether we move beyond the JONeal era or not ) hinges on whether the Lakers want to move beyond Kobe and go to the Bynum era.

                From a Laker POV, if there is a possiblity that the Lakers can truly rebuild around Bynum with some Gordon/Nocioni/9th pick package ( including whatever filler ), I think that they may consider it.

                I know that for the Lakers, its near business suicide for them to let someone like Kobe go AND rebuild around Bynum/Gordon/Nocioni/9th pick....but I am wondering how much the Lakers are willing to hold on to Kobe ( and the grief/ego that he brings ) given their belief ( which I believe is very strong ) that Bynum is going to be a future all-star. At this point....I really believe that the Lakers are actually considering moving Kobe just to get out from underneath his "no-trading clause/super-ego" and do what they actually want to do for the long-term....build around Bynum.

                For me....I am stuck between the "get odom so that we are competitive to make the Playoffs" and the "let's just move JONeal for Bynum so that we can truly rebuild" camp.

                Believe me, I want to "have my cake and eat it" ( get Odom+Bynum ) so that we can be competitive for the Playoffs while having a core of Shawne/Granger/Ike/Bynum....but I am realistic enough to realize that I don't think the Lakers will give up Odom AND Bynum to make such a deal happen. With all those arguments that suggest that JONeal is an all-star...there are plausible arguments ( injury prone and/or shooting 43% FG percentage for a Low-post scoring threat ) that suggest that he may not be worth that much.
                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                • #9
                  Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                  If no JO trade happens I believe another Pacer will be traded to get into the first round. Foster possibly, getting into the late first round. Or maybe Ike
                  since JO will make him redundant.
                  {o,o}
                  |)__)
                  -"-"-

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                    Originally posted by CableKC View Post

                    I know that for the Lakers, its near business suicide for them to let someone like Kobe go AND rebuild around Bynum/Gordon/Nocioni/9th pick.....
                    The Lakers have other options besides rebuilding around Bynum.

                    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=31788

                    And no it doesn't have to be exactly this trade, but you get the picture.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                      Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                      They had a deal with Jason Kidd on the table for Bynum....they passesd, those smart, savy businessmen basicly screwed themselves becasue they didn't make that one deal. Now New Jersey won't give them the time of day unless it's Kobe being the one traded to them.
                      Not sure that's true. NJ is still quite capable of "blowing it up" by not re-signing Half Man, Half a Season, and the idea of trading JKidd for Bynum/picks/whatever in order to pair Bynum/Marcus Williams for the Brooklyn move would have to at least raise some interest with Ron Thorn. It's not like Kidd is gonna have much left come BK time anyway. They got tickets to sell and fans to win. The best big man prospect in the League not named Yao has to interest NJ still.

                      Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                      The Lakers "smart business savy suits" havent been to the second round since they were bounced in the finals by a Shaq led Laker team...the key here was Sqhaq led... Now it's out that it was Jerry Buss who wanted Shaq traded because of his upcoming "new-bigger" contract, the one Miami gave him anyway...What did the Lakers end up with for Shaq? Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown and Brian Grant.....in other words they ended up with Lamar Odom for Shaq.
                      They obviously s*** the bed in evaluating Kwame in the Butler deal. But, for today and the near future (meaning, not considering the time since he left), the Lakers are better off without Shaq's albatross contract. They may have sacrificed being a contender, but not giving Shaq the long-term, bloated deal that Miami did because they thought he was going to break down in year 3-4 was right on.

                      Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                      What other team is going to give the Lakers a 6'11" power forward-Center who is not yet 30 years old who has been an All star 6 times? The Lakers are a franchise that doesn't rebuild with young players...it's history states that they raid Superstars with expiring contracts for the Glitz & stars of La La land.
                      First off, I know all about JO. I'm probably one of his bigger supporters. But he has flaws. I know them. You know them. The Lakers front office knows them. And I'm sure Kobe knows them too.

                      Getting to your question....KG (although 31 years old) for one.

                      There are many other options for LA, though. Randolph, Gasol, Sheed, Antawn Jamison. Or they could make multiple smaller moves and get someone like Drew Gooden (who's reportedly available) and S&T for Chauncey. Rashad Lewis is a possibility.

                      Look, I don't know which GMs are talking to which GMs about what deals (and a lot of these media folk don't know either, BTW), but there are a lot of good players in the NBA that can be attained. Maybe Boston could be convinced to give up Paul Pierce to build around Bynum/Jefferson/5th Pick for all we know.

                      Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                      The bottom line is that they are the Goddam Lakers and I as an Indiana Pacer fan can take they're players or leave them, on the other hand they have to come up with a player to compliment Kobe this year or lose him for nothing, or little more than nothing when he opts out in 2 years!
                      Wait...they wouldn't be allowed to trade him next summer? Or at the deadline this year? Or at the deadline in the 2008-2009 season?

                      They have plenty of time.

                      Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                      The Lakers don't have a choice, they will role over for somebody, the Pacers just have a little better deal then anyone else in the east, or even the west will give them.
                      The public perception is that LA needs to make a splash to appease Kobe. But we all know Phil has the kid's ear and if they can make two mini-splashes or otherwise convince KB24 that they're putting together a contender, all may be back to gravy in LakerLand.

                      So they have plenty of choices.

                      Kobe doesn't run the team. Kobe's not gonna sit out. He's not gonna play half-*** basketball next year. He's not gonna tarnish his legacy in an uncorrectable way. This isn't Ron Ron here.

                      Maybe the Lakers give us both Bynum and Lamar. Maybe. But it's not like they have to.

                      We're not dealing from as big a position of power as you think.
                      Last edited by JayRedd; 06-19-2007, 02:49 PM.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                        Originally posted by JayRedd View Post
                        Not sure that's true. NJ is still quite capable of "blowing it up" by not re-signing Half Man, Half a Season, and the idea of trading JKidd for Bynum/picks/whatever in order to pair Bynum/Marcus Williams for the Brooklyn move would have to at least raise some interest with Ron Thorn. It's not like Kidd is gonna have much left come BK time anyway. They got tickets to sell and fans to win. The best big man prospect in the League not named Yao has to interest NJ still.



                        They obviously s*** the bed in evaluating Kwame in the Butler deal. But, for today and the near future (meaning, not considering the time since he left), the Lakers are better off without Shaq's albatross contract. They may have sacrificed being a contender, but not giving Shaq the long-term, bloated deal that Miami did because they thought he was going to break down in year 3-4 was right on.



                        First off, I know all about JO. I'm probably one of his bigger supporters. But he has flaws. I know them. You know them. The Lakers front office knows them. And I'm sure Kobe knows them too.

                        Getting to your question....KG (although 31 years old) for one.

                        There are many other options for LA, though. Randolph, Gasol, Sheed, Antawn Jamison. Or they could make multiple smaller moves and get someone like Drew Gooden (who's reportedly available) and S&T for Chauncey. Rashad Lewis is a possibility.

                        Look, I don't know which GMs are talking to which GMs about what deals (and a lot of these media folk don't know either, BTW), but there are a lot of good players in the NBA that can be attained. Maybe Boston could be convinced to give up Paul Pierce to build around Bynum/Jefferson/5th Pick for all we know.



                        Wait...they wouldn't be allowed to trade him next summer? Or at the deadline this year? Or at the deadline in the 2008-2009 season?

                        They have plenty of time.



                        The public perception is that LA needs to make a splash to appease Kobe. But we all know Phil has the kid's ear and if they can make two mini-splashes or otherwise convince KB24 that they're putting together a contender, all may be back to gravy in LakerLand.

                        So they have plenty of choices.

                        Kobe doesn't run the team. Kobe's not gonna sit out. He's not gonna play half-*** basketball next year. He's not gonna tarnish his legacy in an uncorrectable way. This isn't Ron Ron here.

                        Maybe the Lakers give us both Bynum and Lamar. Maybe. But it's not like they have to.

                        We're not dealing from as big a position of power as you think.
                        I just have one question for you then, if you think your right?

                        Why does Kobe want to be traded? I would think and so should you that if he had the confidence in his front office to make the right moves he would have kept his mouth shut and just played the game. If he had that confidence in his front office this thread or problem wouldn't exist.

                        I guess its easier for you to be a Laker apologist and pick a factually based thread apart then someone who understands when a franchise is basicly being held hostage.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                          The Pacer's have to be viewed, by other teams, to be in a precarious state as well. They've had attitude problems, run-ins with the law, received the short end of the stick in the last few trades, a plethora of bad contracts on the menu, an old coach that was publicly called out by former and current players, a franchise player making public threats/demands, one coaching prospect turn them down, a new coach who's name has been off the radar for a few years, upper management that's being questioned in the media, dwindling fan support, key players with injury histories, missed the playoffs for the 1st time in many years, have taken a backseat to the current hometown darlings and Super Bowl Champs the Colts, no really likable players who can actually deliver since Reggie's retirement, no draft pick and nothing but bad vibes coming from all angles in the last few seasons. They also won't have gushing support from the masses if they trade away the only known commodity in JO for prospects and draft picks. The Pacer's aren't in any position that's enviable.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                            I really don't think that the Pacers have so much leverage where they can just screw teams over and demand and get whatever the hell they please. It's not that simple.

                            The Lakers are not stupid. They are not going to trade all their assets for Jermaine. He isn't worth it. Big salary, injury prone, has a lot of mileage on him regardless of his age. They aren't going to break the bank to get him.

                            As others have said there will be other good opitions for the Lakers. Pau Gasol, Zach Randolph, Rasheed Wallace all may be avaliable and the Lakers could get them without taking on a contract such as Murphy's while giving up both Odom and Bynum.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Dealing from a Position of Power...for a change..

                              Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                              I just have one question for you then, if you think your right?

                              Why does Kobe want to be traded? I would think and so should you that if he had the confidence in his front office to make the right moves he would have kept his mouth shut and just played the game. If he had that confidence in his front office this thread or problem wouldn't exist.

                              I guess its easier for you to be a Laker apologist and pick a factually based thread apart then someone who understands when a franchise is basicly being held hostage.
                              I'm not claiming to know crap about the Lakers, in all honestly. The situation doesn't seem to be that great. And I'm not gonna claim that a front office that knowingly forces a coach to start Smush Parker at the point for two straight years can be trusted to do anything intelligent.

                              Really, all I'm saying is that we don't have a lot of control over what the Lakers do.

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