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Thread: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    I don't know. I can't really find that documented - just something I've heard. Clearly, in the past, it was not an assist even if the guy hit both FTs.

    So you've got a scenarion in which Tinsley throws an alley-oop pass to Granger, who gets clobbered by the defender trying to break up the pass, he hits two FTs and Tinsley may or may not get an assist. Clearly, in that situation, without the pass there would be no alley-oop layup attempt.

    Contrasted to a scenario in which Anthony Johnson can't get the ball to JO in the paint, so he leads JO to the dotted line where JO pivots, takes a dribble, launches, and tomahawks a dunk, and AJ gets an assist. Clearly, in that situation, the pass wasn't remotely related to the ensuing athletic play.

    Wacky, huh?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #77
    I consume tiny briefs Robobtowncolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    I don't know. I can't really find that documented - just something I've heard. Clearly, in the past, it was not an assist even if the guy hit both FTs.

    So you've got a scenarion in which Tinsley throws an alley-oop pass to Granger, who gets clobbered by the defender trying to break up the pass, he hits two FTs and Tinsley may or may not get an assist. Clearly, in that situation, without the pass there would be no alley-oop layup attempt.

    Contrasted to a scenario in which Anthony Johnson can't get the ball to JO in the paint, so he leads JO to the dotted line where JO pivots, takes a dribble, launches, and tomahawks a dunk, and AJ gets an assist. Clearly, in that situation, the pass wasn't really a setup for the ensuing athletic play.

    Wacky, huh?
    Hey, don't know why you're complaining at all. I was watching that make-believe game too and was shocked Tinsley didn't turn it over or brick a three pointer.
    Narf!

  3. #78

    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    I've heard that some statisticians will credit an assist if the player is fouled on a missed shot (that would have resulted in an assist if the shot was made) if the shooter hits his FTs.
    That should not happen and I have never heard of it happening. That is clearly against NBA rules.

    The NBA defines assist as: A pass that leads directly to a basket.

    Not leading to a score at the free throw line, but a made field goal. The only interpretation is in the meaning of the word "directly"-- can the pass receiver dribble once, twice, make a spin move, etc?

    http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm

    not saying it can be screwed up, but I've never heard of a statistician doing this.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Even given the circumstances of the era, Robertson's accomplishment is impressive just for the fact that no one else did it. I'm not of the crowd that sees it as the best season ever, but it's amazing nonetheless.

    What I liked best about that Simmons article was the part about Moses. I've always thought he was underrated and that 83 Sixers team is especially underrated. They went 12-1 in the playoffs (nearly went fo' five fo') and they were absolutely stacked. J, Moses, Toney, Cheeks, Bobby Jones. That's a damn good line-up.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    as good as Duncan can be...he never really gave me that "unstoppable/G.O.A.T" feeling that some players do...maybe the PF position is a weak one aftearll...

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Well yea thats a no brainer Pacertom (almost).... but i always put Reggie Miller over Jordan...

    I guess I always pick "best players" not after All-Round skills, but specific skills! Afterall, this is basketball, a team game where you build a team that fits! So it depends on what you are after at the specific position, its not like if you put the best all-round players at each position or 5 ballhogers at each position and expect that team to be better than a team that is engineered "tailor made" or "handcrafted" team...
    Last edited by #31; 06-12-2007 at 07:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by #31 View Post
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    Well yea thats a no brainer Pacertom.... but i always put Reggie Miller over Jordan...
    how could you not?

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    how could you not?
    Well, why not? Best Slasher or Best Shooter at the SG position? Think about it... this is a basketball game where 5 players gets it done and not a 1 on 1 game or even a All-Star game.

    I mean, when you build a team... what do you prefer?? But you must make them fit directly! People usually pick the best players after allround skills or stats or after what they hear, so they are brainwashed to think that 5 ballhogers or 5 best allround players at each position is better than a "handcrafted" team.
    It doesnt work like that...

    I personally believe that this team...

    PG: John Stockton
    SG: Reggie Miller
    SF: Larry Bird
    PF: Tim Duncan
    C: Hakeem Olajuwon

    would be better than this team...

    PG: Magic Johnson
    SG: Michael Jordan
    SF: Lebron James
    PF: Karl Malone
    C: Shaquille Oneal

    Why? Think about it...
    TEAM 1: A Jackpot! Ball movement and just.. movement! They fit together and each player has a skill and style that the other doesnt have and at the correct position!
    TEAM 2: 5 ballhogers... chemistry problems? Fighting for balltime? God knows..
    Last edited by #31; 06-12-2007 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Fine.

    I'll take this team
    G - Oscar
    G - West
    F - Erving
    F - Garnett
    C - Wilt

    and kick either of those team's butts.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by #31 View Post
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    Well, why not? Best Slasher or Best Shooter at the SG position? Think about it... this is a basketball game where 5 players gets it done and not a 1 on 1 game or even a All-Star game.

    I mean, when you build a team... what do you prefer?? But you must make them fit directly! People usually pick the best players after allround skills or stats or after what they hear, so they are brainwashed to think that 5 ballhogers or 5 best allround players at each position is better than a "handcrafted" team.
    It doesnt work like that...

    I personally believe that this team...

    PG: John Stockton
    SG: Reggie Miller
    SF: Larry Bird
    PF: Tim Duncan
    C: Hakeem Olajuwon

    would be better than this team...

    PG: Magic Johnson
    SG: Michael Jordan
    SF: Lebron James
    PF: Karl Malone
    C: Shaquille Oneal

    Why? Think about it...
    However *I hate starting off like this*...when you're talking about G.O.A.T. the last thing you want to worry about is TEAM chemistry. Personally, when I look at a list of G.O.A.T. its basically like a mock draft where you can draft one person from that position for your current team...

    Don't get me wrong, I'm one a huge Miller fan...but he was no MJ...which actually is a reason why I am his fan.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    And...

    I'll take this team:
    G - Cheeks
    G - Toney
    F - Erving
    F - Jones
    C - Malone

    in any seven game series against any all-star team.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    Fine.

    I'll take this team
    G - Oscar
    G - West
    F - Erving
    F - Garnett
    C - Wilt

    and kick either of those team's butts.
    Yes! Thats what im talking about, that team FIT!!

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by #31 View Post
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    Yes! Thats what im talking about, that team FIT!!
    Yeah, YOUR team....

    There are plenty of combinations where Reggie would be a terrible fit compared to other shooting guards.

    The fact you like him does not make him the greatest SG of all time, nor does it make him the best team player of all time.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by #31 View Post
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    Well yea thats a no brainer Pacertom (almost).... but i always put Reggie Miller over Jordan...

    I guess I always pick "best players" not after All-Round skills, but specific skills! Afterall, this is basketball, a team game where you build a team that fits! So it depends on what you are after at the specific position, its not like if you put the best all-round players at each position or 5 ballhogers at each position and expect that team to be better than a team that is engineered "tailor made" or "handcrafted" team...
    So Stockton should be put in the category as the best ever to play the game? I mean he is light years ahead of everyone for total assists and he's the all time steals leader too.

    That makes him him the best player in two different categories for specific skills.

    STOCKTON FOR G.O.A.T!!!

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So Stockton should be put in the category as the best ever to play the game? I mean he is light years ahead of everyone for total assists and he's the all time steals leader too.
    He's also #2 all-time in turnovers...
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-13-2007 at 03:14 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    He's also #2 all-time in turnovers...
    More than Herb Williams? I didn't think that was possible.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Red face Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    The fact that Reggie's name is entering this thread is laughable....but I guess I shouldn't be suprised because this is a Pacers forum.

    Was Reggie ever anything higher than all NBA third team in any of his seasons? I don't think so, I think he had about 3 third team selections, nothing higher. And you're telling me some of you are putting him into an ALL TIME team?

  18. #93

    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Reggie was the number two shooting guard when Jordan was around. One could even argue for Mitch Richmond in Reggie's place. But, Reggie was on the second team at least once to my recollection.

    For an all-decade team, at least, Reggie would be there.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Before we needlessly go down that road, let's at least get on the same page with the facts... just putting them out there in case you have not memorized them....sorry to divert O/T.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggie_Miller
    • Miller made the All-NBA Third Team three times throughout his career and received his only MVP votes in 1998 and 2000.
    • 5 time All-Star
    • The book Who's Better, Who's Best by Elliott Kalb lists Miller among the top 50 NBA players of all time.
    • Miller is the all-time NBA leader in total 3-point field goal made (2,560) and ranks at 13th place in total points (25,279), 7th in free throw percentage (88.8%), 6th in minutes played (47,619) and 6th in games played (1,389). He is also all-time NBA leader in total three-point field goals made in the playoffs (320).
    • Miller also holds the record for most taken three point field goals in an NBA career.(6,486)
    • Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992-93, 1996-97). He also led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season.
    • Miller is the NBA's career leader in four-point plays with 24.
    • In 2003, Reggie Miller was ranked 52nd on SLAM magazine's Top 75 NBA players of all time.
    • Reggie Miller is one of only five members of the 50-40-90 club along with Larry Bird, Mark Price, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. This club is for players who during the course of a season shot 50% or better from the field, 40% or better from three-point range, and 90% or better from the free throw line.
    Last edited by Frank Slade; 06-13-2007 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Miller was third-team all-NBA three times ('95, '96 and '98, and never second-team all-NBA) and in 1998 and 2000 did receive a smattering of third-place MVP votes.

    Miller was constantly outvoted for all-NBA positions by Jordan, Richmond, Sprewell, Rice, Drexler, Dumars, Penny Hardaway, Bryant, Iverson, etc.

    Reggie has a better "career" than those guys because of longevity, but not because he was better than them when he was at his peak.

    It should be noted that in a number of years, Reggie's career paralleled the NBA's "golden days" for PGs so guys like Payton, Stockton, KJ, Tim Hardaway, Kidd, and Price were also gobbling up the guard spots.

    Mark Jackson, who is second all-time in NBA Assists (again, thanks to his longevity), never even made the third-team all-NBA because of the raw number of outstanding guards during that era.

    I understand why we're fans of Reggie. But that doesn't put him into this thread, where were are talking about the GOATs.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade View Post
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    Before we needlessly go down that road, let's at least get on the same page with the facts... just putting them out there in case you have not memorized them....sorry to divert O/T.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggie_Miller
    • Miller made the All-NBA Third Team three times throughout his career and received his only MVP votes in 1998 and 2000.
    • 5 time All-Star
    • The book Who's Better, Who's Best by Elliott Kalb lists Miller among the top 50 NBA players of all time.
    • Miller is the all-time NBA leader in total 3-point field goal made (2,560) and ranks at 13th place in total points (25,279), 7th in free throw percentage (88.8%), 6th in minutes played (47,619) and 6th in games played (1,389). He is also all-time NBA leader in total three-point field goals made in the playoffs (320).
    • Miller also holds the record for most taken three point field goals in an NBA career.(6,486)
    • Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992-93, 1996-97). He also led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season.
    • Miller is the NBA's career leader in four-point plays with 24.
    • In 2003, Reggie Miller was ranked 52nd on SLAM magazine's Top 75 NBA players of all time.
    • Reggie Miller is one of only five members of the 50-40-90 club along with Larry Bird, Mark Price, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. This club is for players who during the course of a season shot 50% or better from the field, 40% or better from three-point range, and 90% or better from the free throw line.
    I know that he has some special numbers. But those aren't G.O.A.T. numbers. 52nd on SLAMS top 75? OK, that's fine. But if you put Reggie on a GOAT team, then I think you're putting him a helluva lot higher than 52, which isn't ok. That's making him top 5, or 10, or 15...which is a complete joke.

    5 time all star: Nothing to really brag on considering he played 18 years. Anyone mentioned in a G.O.A.T. is consistantly an allstar every year. Not just every couple.

    Reggie's numbers are one dimensional. Practically every stat you listed has to do with shooting, mainly 3 point shooting. He never got assists or rebounds, and was an average defender. One dimensional players don't belong in this thread.

    The longevity makes him special and allowed him to inflate his numbers. Take pracitcally any of the players Jay mentioned and compare their best season's to Miller's best. I'm sure most have 3 or 4 seasons that were better than Miller's best. The simple fact of that matter is that someone who was only voted to the All NBA third team 3 times has absolutely no business being mentioned in a thread about G.O.A.T. To put him there is a definition of a homer.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    That should not happen and I have never heard of it happening. That is clearly against NBA rules.

    The NBA defines assist as: A pass that leads directly to a basket.

    Not leading to a score at the free throw line, but a made field goal. The only interpretation is in the meaning of the word "directly"-- can the pass receiver dribble once, twice, make a spin move, etc?

    http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm

    not saying it can be screwed up, but I've never heard of a statistician doing this.
    You'd get fired for doing that, period. That's why 82 Games went out of their way to do that passes-leading-to-FTs study in the first place.

    The statisticians now allow for a dribble between the pass and made basket,
    When WASN'T this true? Certainly no time that I can recall. 1 dribble was the rule. Now stats guys will vary in just how much leeway they give, which is why many think Mark Jackson's assists jumped up so much when he got to Denver. But still they must be accountable for their reasoning, it has to be close. No different than the error/hit rulings in baseball.


    Now if you want to talk about odd stats, did you know that some of Babe Ruth's homeruns BOUNCED over the fence? Used to be that what is now a ground rule double was a HR. But on the flipside if the ball went out around the foul pole but then landed in foul territory it was just a foul ball, not a homerun. Go figure.



    I love Reggie. Now he must get the hell out of this thread and never return.

  23. #98

    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Now if you want to talk about odd stats, did you know that some of Babe Ruth's homeruns BOUNCED over the fence? Used to be that what is now a ground rule double was a HR. But on the flipside if the ball went out around the foul pole but then landed in foul territory it was just a foul ball, not a homerun. Go figure.
    A tangent here...

    That rumor has been around for decades. Sure enough, the ground rule double came into existance in 1931. Several baseball historians have examined all of the newspaper reports of every single Ruth home run (baseball was covered in detail in the papers since this is how most people followed it).

    They have found not one single account of a "bounce home run" as they were always called then, hit by Babe Ruth. Lou Gehrig had a few, so did Rogers Hornsby and many, many other players of that era. "Bounce home runs" were typically called exactly that in newspaper accounts.

    You are right that a ball curving foul after leaving the yard fair was called a foul ball not a home run. Babe lost a lot of home runs this way, but it is hard to guess how many since the type of foul ball was never recorded.

    The only legitimate reasons for questioning his home run totals is to point out that the Babe never faced African American pitching in real major league games and the concept of "relief pitcher" was almost unheard of, so a bad starter was around for a long time to get pummeled.

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Screw u guys, Reggie is the best ever!

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    Default Re: Duncan the G.O.A.T at PF, bigger gap than any position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    When WASN'T this true? Certainly no time that I can recall. 1 dribble was the rule.
    I always see this in reference to Oscar and players from the 1960s. I think the one-dribble rule came along later. I'd agree that every player from the 80's and forward gets the benefit of the one-dribble rule.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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