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Thread: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

  1. #26

    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    I don't think any amount of PR could have undone the damage done by the brawl. If Ron were suspended for less time would we have been in better shape? The problem wasn't the brawl and its aftermath; it was Ron.

    If we are playing the 'should have" game we should have shipped Ron out that summer. The beginning of the end came when we gambled on Ron not when we lost that bet.

  2. #27
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Peck - I think you should say something when you use one of my PMs to you.

    I totally agree with Peck. In the scenario you describe, words could have just been words but at least they would have been spoken. I admit I was livid about the Artest suspension - but not for his sake. I saw it as something done to the Pacers - my team. It was mind-boggling that Stern went so far beyond precedent.

    Standing by your players is one things. Standing by your players who continue to act like idiots is another.

    I disagree with UB in one aspect. Maybe the decline would have resulted in the waning fan interest this year. But I think if the front office had taken the stand Peck described, maybe this slide wouldn't have happened.

    By the way, what does Beech Grove have to do with his thinking - huh? Like being from Beech Grove limits your scope. Huh? Huh?

    Great post.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    I don't think any amount of PR could have undone the damage done by the brawl. If Ron were suspended for less time would we have been in better shape? The problem wasn't the brawl and its aftermath; it was Ron.

    If we are playing the 'should have" game we should have shipped Ron out that summer. The beginning of the end came when we gambled on Ron not when we lost that bet.
    I'm not even a religious sort of fellow, but I'll give you an "Amen" on that one.

    Everyone will make mistakes in some of their decision-making. The trick is to not compound those mistakes by building upon them with additional mistakes.

    But had I been in charge, I would have had my Artest blinders on as well, and would have probably gambled on him due to his overall skills and our need of a premier perimeter defender.

    I was an Artest supporter, and you can make a joke about that any way you choose. But I've learned to accept that I was also an idiot.

  4. #29
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    hahah couldn't get past the first few lines before posting.
    Are you nuts? you wanted donnie and co to suspend our own players for what happened at the palace? That was a team that was on it's way to the conf. finals if not the nba finals! The whole city felt that we were done wrong. Sure jackson went into the stands. Sure ron did...But ben wallace started that whole mess. Throwing things and acting like a jackoff...Then the beer came into play and all hell broke loose. I Originally thought in the mess jackson probably thought someone was going to hurt ron so that's why he clocked that kid with the glassess! plus the dude had just thrown another beer in ron's face. So i figure it's justified...If you can't see that our players were trying to help each other defend themselves vs the piston fans/players then you are crazy.

    I don't think ANY of our players deserved to be suspended more then a few games. Hey Ben Wallace got only 5...and he still thought he was mr bad *** on the court. You could tell he didn't give a damn about what happened...and his fat brother clocking fred jones was even more funny.

    And THUGS? please that is some really racist crap right there. Ron Artest is not a THUG because he went into the stands after being hit with a beer...We all would do the same thing. And anyone who says diff...well...your kidding yourselves...F Professionalism...When someone just trys to break my neck and i'm trying to let it be and some jack off throws a towel and is egging on the fans an dthey toss a beer at me? Oh it's deff on...does that make me a thug? if so...so be it.

    Ashamed? Ashamed of what? because our guys tryed to protect themselves? because we clocked a few piston fans who deserved it? You can't tell me each fan that got decked DIDN'T deserve it. Of course if that's ok...and throwing things and what not is totally fine then yes we should suspend OUR guys and not stand behind their actions. Because THEY WHERE WRONG...no one else...them! the pacers where wrong...am I right? it's their fault for not being professional and going into the stands. Sounds like some ESPN flip flop bullsh*t if you ask me.
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    OPL -

    Without reliving every detail, obviously the situation escalated out of control.

    But the end result is that a player is totally out of line by going into the stands. Being doused by a beer is certainy a degrading thing, but it is not life-threatening. Now if several fans would have come after Artest immediately after the beer was thrown, that would be a different story. But since Artest was so quick to react, we have no way of knowing whether that would have happened.

    As far as the label "thug" goes, whether it is racist or otherwise, I along with countless other Pacer fans would probably currently classify Artest, Jackson and Tinsley using the sterotype of "thug".

    That doesn't make it right. But whether it is politically correct or not, it is reality. And the present reality is really hurting the Pacers in fan attendance.

    The only remedy to attendance is to win games and to listen to what the fans are saying. With the Arteste and Jackson trades, I would say that the Pacers have listened and are making every attempt to build a team of players whose values reflect those of the community.

    I will echo the same statement once Tinsley is traded.

  6. #31
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    OPL, I suggest first of all to be very careful before throwing out accusations of racism. Secondly, re-read what he wrote. He didn't say they were thugs and even acknowledge passed debates where it was relatively "agreed" that it's an inappropriate label.

    beast23 I'm probably the 353245th person to be the one to go into it, but the "thug" label isn't really appropriate for these guys. Thugs are far worse people.

  7. #32
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    yeah well i don't know where you get the idea that the general consensus was that "Why don't they get rid of those thugs?"
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  8. #33
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft View Post
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    yeah well i don't know where you get the idea that the general consensus was that "Why don't they get rid of those thugs?"
    I don't think it's the general consensus, but I do know a lot of people (who don't really care much about the Pacers but sometimes pretend that they do to be social) who have similar thoughts along those lines. It doesn't make it right (or accurate).

  9. #34
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    You haven't gone far enough back in time.

    The franchise took a horrible turn for the worse when they traded for Ron Artest.

    Word in Chicago was always that the only way the Bulls were wiling to take on Jalen's contract was to stick us with Artest.

    At the very least, the team needed to change coaches immediately upon trading for Artest. The appropriate candidates would all have PhD's dealing with mental health patients.

    My hunch is that we'll never see an NBA team win anything with a m#n+&lly !ll member of its starting five.

    His health (mental) has never really been a secret.

    That's just not something you do to a team in a team sport, no matter how talented the individual is. And you sure as hell don't do it to a team that isn't properly equipped to handle the accompanying distractions - not knowing whether it will be a "good day" or a "bad day" and if its a "bad day" how will it manifest this time - challenging teammates to fistfights? throwing a treadmill at the coach? going awol from practice? committing a flagrant foul less than thirty seconds into a game when you've already got so many flagrant fouls you'll automatically be suspended?

    And with the benefit of hindsight, this team had plenty of players with fragile enough egos that they couldn't handle the special treatment that was given to the guy that probably needed even more special treatment than he was actually given.

    How long was Artest here? Almost four years? It will take that long, if not longer, to clean out all of the contanimation he caused to the franchise.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #35
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft View Post
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    yeah well i don't know where you get the idea that the general consensus was that "Why don't they get rid of those thugs?"
    Would you settle for "why don't they get rid of those guys"?

    Same thing.

    And quite true.

    Granted, Sassan and the Pacers marketing machine attempted to make a martyr of Artest. Which, unfortunately reached its easy-to-see conclusion a few months later when Artest demanded a trade. He didn't deserve the misguided support he received. But he was a popular icon to rally around in light of Stern's harsh (but deserved) statement that players can't fight with fans.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #36
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Ron demanded a trade...yeah so did kobe. Rons unstable...sure...But ron's passionate about this game. He doesn't think before he does things...which unfortunetly is his downfall.
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by skyfire View Post
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    I'd go back further to the point that the owners overruled Bird's desire to trade Artest, before the brawl even happened. Everything since then has just been making the best of a bad situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Well considering that, as I understand it, the Simons are the reason we didn't trade Artest for Stojakovic during the summer of 2004, someone should tell them that they aren't basketball gurus.
    excellent points...a very important decision was made the summer before the brawl to hang on to artest and hope for the best and i think you can pinpoint that as the real shift in fortunes for the franchise. yes this team had championship dreams but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have traded artest following the playoff meltdown. honestly i don't fault them for the initial artest trade. isaiah wanted jalen gone, we got artest and brad miller out of it. and for a while, artest wasn't terrible. but slowly he started losing it. and given his history, the meltdown in the playoffs should have been clear indication that it could get a lot worse before it gets any better.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  13. #38
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Ron Artest is not a THUG because he went into the stands after being hit with a beer...We all would do the same thing.
    I have to agree. Seriously.

    Look, from my generation and especially my father's, the old "stand up for yourself" machismo and the resulting bar room brawls were considered positive qualities in a man. The bar room brawl in the western was basically required, and the reason was that it had such a positive resonance with male society.

    If it's Hopalong Cassidy or even Burt Reynolds in Cannonball Run then we laugh and love the character for "mixing it up" and "not taking any s***". Seriously.

    Films (and books) reflect our moral code back on us, they don't invent it. If a good guy is depicted doing something you truly have a distaste for then you don't see him as the good guy anymore. But I'll be damned if John Wayne was typically considered a bad guy because he knocked someone into the dirt when they had it coming.

    Maybe in the hyper-sensitive PC era of the post-80s this view is changing, but the world anyone over 30 grew up in wouldn't have blinked an eye.

    Or were Larry Bird and Nolan Ryan "thugs" rather than glorified for their physical retaliations?

  14. #39
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    a very important decision was made the summer before the brawl to hang on to artest and hope for the best
    Let's not forget that there was a reason for this thinking. Whatever issues he'd had in his final year with Isiah were LONG GONE under Rick. He spent an entire season virtually clean. He missed 1 game due to flagrant points. His only other suspension was for stepping quite literally 3 steps off the bench before turning himself around (no one restrained him in any way) vs Boston when Stern decided to prove a point (as he did with Amare).

    He was an AS, DPOY and it seemed as though under Rick's coaching he was learning to play with some discipline. 1 minute before the brawl no Pacers fan was saying "we need Ron gone now". If you say you were then I need some documented proof. As that season started it appeared that the ship was adjusted and right on track to get back at Detroit.

    Everyone acts like the brawl came on the heels of his spring meltdown under Isiah, but it didn't.

    And save the Rip thing as part of Ron acting up, IMO that was a massive flop by Rip as Ron didn't extend his arm nor did Rip fall back away from the direction of contact, but instead flopped to the side...and oh by the way only after clearly hitting Ron in the crotch intentionally shortly before that (but getting no foul call, nor a fine from the NBA or any outrage at all).

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Larry Bird or Nolan Ryan didn't take it off the court/field.


  16. #41
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    NO. We would NOT all do the same thing in Artest's situation. Not even close. If you're a hot-head, maybe. If you're of the mindset that you have to "get back" at anyone who wrongs you, then maybe. But far from ****ing everyone. That's a huge cop out. Especially when the guy in question was un-injured and a 6'7" 260lbs chiseled man.

    Hollywood reflects the ideals of a certain number of people, NOT everyone. And it varies with every piece of work.

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Maybe in the hyper-sensitive PC era of the post-80s this view is changing, but the world anyone over 30 grew up in wouldn't have blinked an eye.
    Don't forget the dope smoking coke snorting 70s where people were a little spent after Vietnam.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Maybe in the hyper-sensitive PC era of the post-80s this view is changing, but the world anyone over 30 grew up in wouldn't have blinked an eye.
    I would bet money that more people over the age of 30 were digusted at what took place than the 15-30 y/o range.

    Who does/did the defending for Ron that night? *raises hand*

    The further you get into the hip-hop culture that glorifies violence, the more defenders of Ron you'll find, and it's usually teens to mid-20's that make up the hip-hop culture.

  19. #44
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Not necessarily 86. I'm in my 30's, live in the suburbs, married w/ children and I'm a bass player in a country band. I'm about as far away from hip-hop culture as is humanly possible. I still defend Ron Artest.

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Which is why I didn't use absolute terms. :wink:

    There were several over 30 posters on the board that defended him, and some still do, but I would say the majority are going to be more in my age bracket.

  21. #46

    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    as we end the week, here's something everyone can agree on,

    that this is just precious:



    Poor Paris





    They should make her share a cell with Stephen Jackson.

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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    I defend Artest to the extent that I do not believe that his intent was to go into the stands and pummel anyone. I think he went into the stands intending to grab the guy who threw the beer, enabling his own size and obvious anger to totally scare the living bejesus out of the fan.

    But Artest obviously did not consider that others might get involved, so all hell broke loose. Ron is like most others, in anger we rarely consider the alternatives nor the consequences.

    I'm 55, nearly 6-2 and 275. I haven't had a lot of confrontations in my adult life. I've found that humor will usually disperse confrontation. But when I've had to hit something, I can say that it "stays hit".

    But I never would have considered going into the stands. We had already totally embarassed the Pistons on their home floor. A fan hits me with a beer because he's ticked that I've just shredded his beloved Pistons, all I'm going to do is point at the scoreboard and start laughing at him.

    In that event, if you've successfully goaded the fan into coming onto the floor swinging for you, you've earned the privilege of sending him airborne back into the seats.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Not necessarily 86. I'm in my 30's, live in the suburbs, married w/ children and I'm a bass player in a country band. I'm about as far away from hip-hop culture as is humanly possible. I still defend Ron Artest.

    The Bar Brawlers


    What a surprise...
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  24. #49
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Let's not forget that there was a reason for this thinking. Whatever issues he'd had in his final year with Isiah were LONG GONE under Rick. He spent an entire season virtually clean. He missed 1 game due to flagrant points. His only other suspension was for stepping quite literally 3 steps off the bench before turning himself around (no one restrained him in any way) vs Boston when Stern decided to prove a point (as he did with Amare).

    He was an AS, DPOY and it seemed as though under Rick's coaching he was learning to play with some discipline. 1 minute before the brawl no Pacers fan was saying "we need Ron gone now". If you say you were then I need some documented proof. As that season started it appeared that the ship was adjusted and right on track to get back at Detroit.

    Everyone acts like the brawl came on the heels of his spring meltdown under Isiah, but it didn't.

    And save the Rip thing as part of Ron acting up, IMO that was a massive flop by Rip as Ron didn't extend his arm nor did Rip fall back away from the direction of contact, but instead flopped to the side...and oh by the way only after clearly hitting Ron in the crotch intentionally shortly before that (but getting no foul call, nor a fine from the NBA or any outrage at all).
    Raises hand. All you have to do is go back in time to read any post, thread or thought I ever made on Ron Artest even going back one year before the brawl and you will see my name ranting and raving against him.

    However I am a rank amatuer. Go back to the day we made the trade for him and you will see Jay ranting and raving against him.

    Also you can view posts by Bball, Skaut Ech and even a few by Hicks prior to the brawl.

    There were plenty of us that wanted him gone and there is great documentation of it on here.

    Now I admit we were in the vast minority, but we were a vocal minority. Just ask Uncle Buck. He and I used to go at it over him all of the time.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    OPL, I suggest first of all to be very careful before throwing out accusations of racism. Secondly, re-read what he wrote. He didn't say they were thugs and even acknowledge passed debates where it was relatively "agreed" that it's an inappropriate label.

    beast23 I'm probably the 353245th person to be the one to go into it, but the "thug" label isn't really appropriate for these guys. Thugs are far worse people.
    Yeah I gotta agree the way "thug" is sometimes thrown around here is slightly off base IMO.
    Main Entry: thug
    Pronunciation: 'th&g
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Hindi & Urdu thag, literally, thief
    : a brutal ruffian or assassin

    Last I checked Tins, Artest, and Jack don't really meet that definition. Particularly Tins. Now did Jack and Ron perhaps act "thuggish" on 11/19? Yeah I can see that, but I don't see how they are thugs.

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