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Thread: how many years of sucking before we contend?

  1. #26
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    Its already been, what? Two? Three? Seven? - except for the fool's gold during Rick's first year when nearly everything went perfectly until the Miami series.
    Exactly.

    This team has defined mediocrity since making the finals in 2000. One really good season. That's it. 5 mediocre seasons, 1 awful.

    We have won about 54% of our games since 00-01. That's not awful, but certainly not very great either. Mediocre is a perfect word for it. Keep in mind the 61 win season helps the percentage out.

    We had one good year. This team hasn't been a perineal contender since Smits and Jackson were running down the court. 03-04 year was a fluke. The foundation that that team was built on had collapsed the year before it, and collapsed the 2 years after it.

    And who's overall fault is it? Bird didn't come until 2003. Walsh had laid the foundation.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    Its already been, what? Two? Three? Seven? - except for the fool's gold during Rick's first year when nearly everything went perfectly until the Miami series.

    I don't even need to read the rest of this thread because everything that needs to be said was said right here.


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  3. #28

    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    And who's overall fault is it? Bird didn't come until 2003. Walsh had laid the foundation.
    We were re-building until what was it? 03 or 04? The fact that DW put together a team that could make the playoffs as he was re-building it was amazing. No it was not re-tooling the team, the team was re-built.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    Don't all/most coaches and owners try to be optimistic about making the playoffs the following year?

    Unless you are wanting to admit publicly to throwing games for a good draft spot.
    One of the worst things about being an EC team is you can still be terrible and make the playoffs.

    It really allows for delusional thinking.

    Frex, the word from Knicks management is that if it wasn't for the injury problems we'd have made the playoffs this year. I don't know for sure if that's true but Crawford and Lee missed about the last 20 games of the season so it's at least plausible.

    That doesn't change the fact that we're a bad team, or that if we were in the West we'd win about 25 games. I don't see the short-term prospects as much different for the Pacers.

    Could they be a playoff team next season? Sure - in the EC, UCLA could be a playoff team next year. That's just disguising the fact that the team isn't very good and the future doesn't look particularly bright.

    If you were in the West, you'd be forced to face the facts. In the East you'll contend for the playoffs.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    We were re-building until what was it? 03 or 04? The fact that DW put together a team that could make the playoffs as he was re-building it was amazing. No it was not re-tooling the team, the team was re-built.
    It was maybe amazing for the time being, but it came back to bite us.

    Everyone thought that Chicago was idiots for pulling that trade in 02. They knew what they were doing in dumping Artest. We paid the price for trying to build a team through talent.

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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    One of the worst things about being an EC team is you can still be terrible and make the playoffs.

    It really allows for delusional thinking.

    Frex, the word from Knicks management is that if it wasn't for the injury problems we'd have made the playoffs this year. I don't know for sure if that's true but Crawford and Lee missed about the last 20 games of the season so it's at least plausible.

    That doesn't change the fact that we're a bad team, or that if we were in the West we'd win about 25 games. I don't see the short-term prospects as much different for the Pacers.

    Could they be a playoff team next season? Sure - in the EC, UCLA could be a playoff team next year. That's just disguising the fact that the team isn't very good and the future doesn't look particularly bright.

    If you were in the West, you'd be forced to face the facts. In the East you'll contend for the playoffs.
    Very well put.

    The second half of the past season Indiana was not as good a team as Portland, yet the fact the the Blazers play in the west, combined with some lottery luck has them on the verge or really turning things around.

    Indiana, even though they weren't as good as Portland at the end of last season, has very bleak prospects for a quick turnaround....because they finished too high in the standings in the weak weak east.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Why is everyone down on our chances of returning to the playoffs?

    We have a core of very good players who only lanquished playing with JO's style of ball. If we get a couple of sound players for JO, there is no reason we can't be right back in the middle of things this very next season.

    Put Granger, Ike, Baston, Daniels, Williams and Dun with another couple of decent players and you've got a pretty good team. I believe that Murph can return as a double-double player under O'Brien. They will be able to play a different kind of ball without JO having to touch it on almost every possession.

    I don't think JO helped the team that much in the last couple of seasons with his outside game hurting us. If he does go to the Lakers, he will be a much better player with Kobe keeping everyone honest on defense. Maybe, he will return to his low-post play where he is dynamite but his style of play isn't going to do anything for our type of team.

    I can see us finishing as high as 4-5 in the East especially with O'Brien coming aboard who is noted for turning teams around. I am still pumped and stoked for the season to begin.
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  8. #33

    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    We paid the price for trying to build a team through talent.
    As opposed to building through what? I don't get that comment at all. Who's the last contender that wasn't a talented basketball team? You make it sound like having 5 rhodes scholars and a couple choir boys is the way to an NBA title. I guess Detroit traded for Rasheed for his charm instead of his basketball talent.

    Now if your suggesting that TPTB compounded issues by not moving disruptive players - (falling in love with talent), then I would agree with you. But that is exactly the reason I seem to blame Bird more than DW. DW always seemed to move guys that made any kind of noise. I've seen that noted by one of the Walsh critics (BBall or Peck?) several times - the main way a Pacer would get traded is to step out of line. Ever since Bird arrived TPTB seemed to look the other way at internal issues.

    The problem wasn't in trading for Artest, the problem was keeping him for so long. His trade value was certainly higher after his DPOY award and the team certainly already new he was crazy. Carlisle should have been gone after last season and the same goes for JO.

    When Bird and Carlisle came on board the Pacers where a young and talented team, but emotionally immature. I believe things have went about as bad as the could have. I don't see anything that gives me faith in Birds ability to select a coach, make trades, handle personnel, or sign FAs. At least with DW I have his steady leadership of the past to lean on. Personally I have disagreed with every move made since Bird came on - except not re-signing B. Miller. I don't know if that makes it Bird's fault or not, but it certainly doesn't give me confidence in the future with the current management - especially Bird.

    If TPTB make the right moves this team would likely not make the playoffs next year. The other thread talking about acquiring Marcus Camby is exactly the type of move I am afraid the team will make. A 33 year old Center who's game is totaly based on athleticism is not what this team needs. A quick rise to a middle playoff seed is fools gold if there is not enough talent to develop into a true contender. TPTB need to acquire the best prospects they can by trading JO and spend next year concentrating on player developement. That should equal at least one more trip to the lottery.

    So realistically 2 years to make the playoffs and 2 years learning the ropes in the playoffs before they can be truly considered "contending". Best case scenario is 4 years before truly contending -if they don't attempt to "make a run" next year and continue the last 2 years of true mediocrity.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Depends, how soon will the Simons get sick of our current management and their retooling process and bring in some new management that will actually REBUILD the team to be contenders?

    Im guessing not for another 4-5 years.

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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    We have a core of very good players who only lanquished playing with JO's style of ball. If we get a couple of sound players for JO, there is no reason we can't be right back in the middle of things this very next season.

    Put Granger, Ike, Baston, Daniels, Williams and Dun with another couple of decent players and you've got a pretty good team. I believe that Murph can return as a double-double player under O'Brien. They will be able to play a different kind of ball without JO having to touch it on almost every possession.
    Are you kidding? By NBA standards this lineup has lottery written all over it. Those ARE NOT very good NBA players. As a group, they are way below average.

    To me this looks like a 23-win team next year. The addition of a couple players in a JO deal might add 10 wins, but it's still a lottery team.

  11. #36
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    We need a player that the other players will go to war for before we can really talk about contending. No one currently has that mantle and it will have to be earned.

    -Bball
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  12. #37
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    The Bulls are a scoring wingman away from being true contenders.
    What the heck is Deng? And I thought they were a bigman defensive presence away from being true contenders. It's not hard to go back and review how the Bulls were ranked coming into the season.

    Just goes to show you about how close teams are on-paper. Say they get the kind of wing you're talking about (can they afford it even?), then they still come up short. Then we are having this identical conversation all over again but pointing to yet another "all they need" aspect.

    IMO the Bulls have shown that their rebuild was perhaps prematurely crowned. Instead of suffering to get back to the top they've suffered just to end up where the Pacers fans were sick of being the last few years. I mean people wanted Rick gone for only going to the 2nd and 1st round, and then really wanted him gone when they missed this year.

    Well what the heck has Chicago done any different?

    That's why I have to watch the Pacers only win 34 games a year for 3 more years, so they can lose in the 1st or 2nd round and only be a player X from being a contender again?

    Yech, no thanks.


    Honestly I think they are set to be pretty bad for at least 2 seasons, then maybe catch the cusp of the playoffs (which still isn't all that good). Hopefully by that point they'll be able to make a move for a real star (to replace giving up JO which I assume is part of all of this).

  13. #38

    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Depends, how soon will the Simons get sick of our current management and their retooling process and bring in some new management that will actually REBUILD the team to be contenders?

    Im guessing not for another 4-5 years.
    I'm guessing that the Simons aren't interested in overspending as they did because they didn't get a big enough bang for the buck. Just a guess.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    \I've seen that noted by one of the Walsh critics (BBall or Peck?) several times - the main way a Pacer would get traded is to step out of line. Ever since Bird arrived TPTB seemed to look the other way at internal issues.
    I've certainly said that but you are using it in the wrong context. Your ticket out of town would be refusing to accept the party line, not just a dustup. It would be challenging TPTB. Ala, Best, on a slow burn, finally refusing to enter a game. Dale Davis flying off the handle regarding his contract. Jermaine O Neal throwing a hissy fit 8 games into the season...


    -Bball
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    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    I don't like to think it will take this long...but I really think the whole process of getting us back to real contention status will be about 6-7 years. I'm hoping I am wrong but I think it will just take time to find all the pieces that fit.

  16. #41

    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    We are just not going to be back into elite status until we get several top ten picks in a series of a few years. It's not enough to not make the playoffs. This is really a no brainer since the fastest way to really be competitive is to really suck first. We need a Durant, Oden, LeBron type. Look at the finals. Where did Duncan and LeBron come from? If this team is better and picks in the 14-20 range in next year's draft we will not dramatically improve.

  17. #42

    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I've certainly said that but you are using it in the wrong context. Your ticket out of town would be refusing to accept the party line, not just a dustup. It would be challenging TPTB. Ala, Best, on a slow burn, finally refusing to enter a game. Dale Davis flying off the handle regarding his contract. Jermaine O Neal throwing a hissy fit 8 games into the season...


    -Bball
    Wouldn't Artest's refusal to board a plane, Tinsley's constant malingering, and SJax's verbal confrontations fall into the same category?

    I don't know what Bird is actually responsible for, but I do see a distinct difference between the way the team was ran prior to his arrival and after. I certainly don't believe he is the only person to blame - I just don't take any comfort in the thought of him controling the rebuilding.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    Wouldn't Artest's refusal to board a plane, Tinsley's constant malingering, and SJax's verbal confrontations fall into the same category?

    .
    No, not really. It's when you take your feud with TPTB public. I don't think SJax ever really had a major feud with TPTB, and after his ingame blowups he always seemed to make it to the next game. .... maybe not to the shootaround/practice, but he made it to the game and seemed 'with the program' (as much as we came to expect).

    -Bball
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  19. #44
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    Default Re: how many years of sucking before we contend?

    I can't get past the building around Bynum suggestion..... crazy..
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