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Thread: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

  1. #51
    Opps I farted! Smashed_Potato's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.
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  2. #52
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Agree. He's Sheed Part Deux... the clean slate should be all he needs.
    I don't even think it's "success" for either of them. I think Sheed and Jack have continued to be exactly who they always were. It's just that the new fan base isn't wound up on the personality aspects as much.

    Sheed just flipped out again in game 6. He's never gotten better about his techs. He had one year of pretty good behavior, but for the most part the NBA has covered his butt. He must lead the league in techs recinded by this point, it's crazy how often Stern is eliminating techs from his record.

    And as I said in several Jack/GS threads, he NEVER got "better" there. Every single number he put up was nearly identical to here, along with all the call arguing, the techs, the emotion.

    The reason it annoys me with Jack is because people tried to brush it off as "oh, now he's trying, now he's playing well". No, now he's not in blue and gold so you overlook this other stuff more and notice the positives because that team is appreciating them.


    I respect the view of "yes he does good things and those things are helping the Warriors win, I just couldn't take any more of his outbursts and attitude" a lot more than the "he's changed" BS.


    And in that vien I don't think Tinsley will be better with a new coach or new team. As mentioned, if your coach has to motivate you to show up to practice on time or to have passion and discipline in your game then maybe you are a problematic, high-maintenence player rather than unappreciated.

    I'm pretty sure Rick would have loved to have a ring as a coach due to riding Tinsley's talents to the top. I've long stuck by Tinsley for the most part, but he's reaching a stage where his career speaks for itself.

    You aren't defined by what you are in your dreams and intentions, you're defined by your actions. Tins can say he would have been great if only Rick didn't keep him from caring enough, but I'm sure plenty of all-time greats in every sport have played for coaches they didn't much care for. Didn't stop them from getting the job done. That's why they are all-time greats.

  3. #53
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBuck
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    I was interested in your comment about a pass-only PG. Were you being sarcastic about that , or is that just a phrase that I've never seen before
    Not at all, just a phrase that has a lot more meaning in today's NBA, though I guess it isn't used really. A PG that just can't score in almost any capacity but can light up the board for 10-12 assists per night every night, that was my intended meaning. Nowadays it seems that the main ball-handler is expected to score 12-14 a night and a pass-only PG is becoming a thing of the past.

    I like what Tinsley can be as a ball handler and passer. I'm also comfortable with teams knowing that he isn't a threat to score most of the time. I'd rather he punt on making them pay with a bucket and just get after them and move the ball a lot more since that's his strength.

    Something I noticed last season is that a lot of times when Tinsley had the ball, guys failed to work to get themselves open, which would obviously throw Tinsley into 1 on 1 mode where he had to take a bad shot.
    Evan, I agree but I don't think it was coaching. Rick's had guys that move for passes (Reggie, James Jones) and he did finally get Dunleavy to run the elbow curl for the catch and shoot. What I saw was a lot of guys without scoring moves or spots all standing around waiting for someone else to initiate.

    I mean some plays are feed the post and read the double. Heck, plenty of GOOD offenses are based on reading the defense. But if you don't do anything about what you are seeing, if you get caught just ball hawking, then the offense falls apart. I do think this hurt Tinsley. And while we are on the subject, JO's best 2 months of assists? The first 2 of last season when he was pushing toward top 5 among bigs in APG.

    Sorry to beat the trade drum, but it's hard not to when drops in numbers like that coincide with it. The problem pre-trade was that A) they couldn't run despite Bird's grand scheme to bring in players that could run B) Al didn't like being used as a spot-up shooter even though he was dropping it at a 45% rate (funny how Reggie lived for the role but Al hated it) C) Danny was a starter and main 6th man but didn't really have anything like a go-to scoring move or comfort zone other than arc-camping.

    Now Granger is getting older and I expect wiser, same with Shawne. And perhaps a full camp will get a little cohesion going too. But in the end no matter what JOB tells them to do it will fall to the players to move away from the ball with cuts, curls and other reads in order to maintain options for Tinsley.

    And this assumes that the roster has the ABILITY to get open as well.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-03-2007 at 03:51 AM.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    I disagree that a system and coach don't affect a player. Would anyone guess that Nash would be the player he is when he was in Dallas? Sometimes players does get better in situations.

    I am neither suggesting that Tins is either the caliber of player Nash is or that his problems are chiefly Rick. Tins is a grown man and I would hope he owns up to what he needs to on his end.

    However, having said that I honestly believe that Rick's management style and his system weren't right for Tins. I interested in seeing how he preforms in a different situation be it with the P's or not.

    As far as players shouldn't need "motivating" or what not I really disagree. Whose preformance and attitude isn't affect by those their working conditions?
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  5. #55

    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Maybe he can run the offense under O'Brien. But he still can guard anyone. Can Harter change that? How much of that is effort and how much is just lack of quickness?

    Offense has almost nothing to do with why I want JT gone.

  6. #56
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    I hate to say anything because I'd hate to ruin a good puff piece trying to get Tinsley some value for a trade.
    Hopefully, it works.

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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    This is an interesting issue for me, because I'm generally in Unclebuck's camp where Tinsley is concerned. That being said, I would have to say that I'm intrigued to see him play under O'Brien.

    Playing in a looser style will not erase Jamaal's faults, just like playing in GS didn't erase Jackson's. His TO's were not a problem there because they played at such a fast pace that individual possessions were somewhat devalued. O'Brien's faster pace will probably do the same for all the stupid shots Tins takes, but he'll still take them. A more zone oriented defense that collapses on the paint and a coach who refuses to play guys who lack passionate intensity on defense should also help.

    Tinsley certainly has all the talent he needs, though I wish he would become Seth's "pass-only PG". What Pacer fans should realize is that barring some very unforeseen circumstances, the Pacers will not be able to get a PG who will be better in 2008 than Tinsley. Chauncey Billups and Mo Williams will not be Pacers. After those two, you can't name another PG who's both available and clearly better than Tins. The guys in the draft will take a couple of years to develop. I believe that this is a playoff roster and that if Daniels' knee had been healthy we would have been a playoff team last year. In my opinion, a trade of Jamaal means that we're rebuilding just as much as a JO trade.

    All that being said, I don't think the Pacers will ever be a legitimate contender with JT at the point. His inconsistency, lack of leadership, and willingness to play one-on-one with superior players will place a ceiling as to how far this team can go.

    The bottom line is that while I badly want the Pacers to have a new franchise PG, I won't be nearly as upset to see Tins on the roster with JOb as I would have if Carlisle were still here.

    p.s. It's possible that the Pacers new PG is already on the roster and is named Marquis Daniels. I hope JOb lives up to his word and gives him a shot to play there more.
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    As far as SG's in the draft go, I have some thoughts.

    I do not want Marcus Williams under any circumstances.

    Rodney Stuckey would be good. Since I live in Montana and get to watch some Big Sky conference ball, I've seen him play. He's got a chance to be very good. I guess a plausible worst case scenario for him is turning into Flip Murray. I'd say that he'd be more like a lesser version of Wade or Gordon.

    I like Morris Almond a lot.

    Corey Brewer is the best SG in this draft.

    Getting Thaddeus Young on this team would mean we're officially emulating the Atlanta Hawks. He's no more of a 2 than Danny or Shawne.

    I don't know anything about Belinelli or Fernandez.

    Derrick Byars and Nick Young could be good choices.
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    I have long been a gethimouttahere guy....but I also once said I wouldn't mind seeing him under another coach. My problem with Tinsley? Remember the waterhole scene in the movie Tin Cup. THat is how I see JT....willing to give up everything to prove his point regardless of how it affects others.

    Get him outta here.
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    p.s. It's possible that the Pacers new PG is already on the roster and is named Marquis Daniels. I hope JOb lives up to his word and gives him a shot to play there more.
    it would be very interesting to see a lineup of Quis, Dunleavy, Granger, Odom and Bynum. you've got two decent non-traditional playmakers in odom and quis, a guy like dunleavey who certainly does the little things that help facilitate an offense...it could be a royal disaster but it would be interesting nonetheless.
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Ugh Indy! If you need someone else (i.e. coach) to unlock your ability or passion for playing and being a professional you got a lot of serious problems.
    So how long have you been watching basketball. Come on ABA I know you have seen lots of players play considerably better under some systems and coaches than in others. I understand you hate Jamaal and that you are letting that get in the way of facts but please re read your own words and think about what you have seen over the years.

    Rick benched Jamaal at the start of that first season and did not even play him when the league solved us and we became a .500 team. I saw plenty of spirit out of Jamaal when Brown was smart enough to play him when Rick was ejected from the game. Every single year he has come into camp in better shape than he was the year before. Every time Rick let them run a quicker offense Jamaal would get bunches of assists and the team would have a big lead before Rick reigned them in. If I were a pg under Rick I would be disgusted too.


    He played 72 games this year and I am certain he could have played more but there was no point in the end because the ENTIRE team had quit on Rick (well everyone but the crappy new players)

    He is healthy, he is reaching out to his new coach who happens to coach a style that fits very well with Jamaal's game. Might that be worth a look?

  12. #62
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    A lot of talk about Tinsley. I think if we keep him, he will help us suck and get a high draft pick next year...so maybe a little more pain is what we need. The worst case scenario is if he plays ok under JO (not Jermaine) and helps us slip into the playoffs above the junk in the East. That would lead to additional years of borderline mediocrity and garbage basketball for us to endure.

    Alternatively, if we somehow move him, maybe in the trade to LA, we should use part of the assets coming back (ie. Lamar Odom) to get a replacement PG. We need a PG with leadership skills and shooting ability. Think Deron Williams. OMG, I would trade anyone on this team for Williams.

  13. #63
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    I'm going to take my shot at this one since nobody else has. It's pretty simple tbird.
    Thanks for the reply but I think you have me confused for someone else. But since tbird is apparently smarter than me I wont complain to much

    Anyways, I agree with you that Tinsley is probably the best PG we can get for next season and he does fits management's vision, which seems to be making the playoffs next year. Indeed he could breakout under a new coach, but we could use that same excuse to keep the rest of the team too, which at this point doesnt seem too unlikely.

    My problem is that wasn't the vision I was expecting. My impression going into this summer was MAJOR changes. I assumed not only that the coach would be replaced, but most of the team would be blown up in order to go young and rebuild around Danny, Shawne, and Ike. I was expecting a full-on rebuilding mode. So while I wasnt expecting to get someone like Billups to replace Tinsley, I was hoping we'd pick up some young prospect who could develop into a much better PG than Tinsley.

    But again, I was apparently wrong about the direction this team is headed in.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashed_Potato View Post
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    Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.
    Wow what a lofty goal for him to aspire to - A TOP 15!
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  15. #65
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashed_Potato View Post
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    Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.
    Translated: Bird wants to pump up Tinsley's trade value. The top 15 was at Rucker Park.

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    Default Re: Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    He doesn't show much leadership, he isn't punctual and, regardless of whether he’s found innocent or guilty of the charges stemming from the nightclub incident at 8 Seconds Saloon, the off-court scouting report is that he spends too much time in the clubs.
    And this is your floor general, the extension of the coach.
    Yeah let's trust him to do the right thing from now on.

    Simply, JT is not a professional when it comes to his job and it's time to bring in someone else.
    Last edited by RWB; 06-04-2007 at 09:31 AM.
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