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Thread: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

  1. #76
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Take a step backwards, like not suspending Tim for getting off the bench during the second quarter?

    The league defended its decision not to punish him, because there was no altercation. He was off the bench, and on to the floor before one could even start. If one had started, he would have been in violation, but because others kept their head, he came off scot free.

    You can't have it one way and not the other. He left the bench because of the possibility of Elson reacting. He should have been punished too.

    Punishing those who don't even partake does nothing to stop on court violence. Punishing those who do fight with stiffer penalties would be much more effective.
    NBA Rule 12-A-VII-c, "During an altercation, all players not participating in the game must remain in the immediate vicinity of their bench. Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000.
    The key phrase is "During an altercation."

    There was a blog somewhere else today asking why players aren't suspended when they stand up and cheer during a game.

    This rule is about preventing a fight between two players from escalating into something bigger.

    If there is no altercation, the rule is not violated.

    I guess Tim got lucky. That's all.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #77
    Member NorCal_Pacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I agree with Sh4d3 and Jay (and whoever else) that suggested that players already on the court who rush to the 'scene' of an altercation - they should be suspended also. Just cause they're already on the court, does that make them any less guilty than a bench player stepping onto the court? Anyone involved in any sort of 'incident' should be suspended and fined. (That is, if you think the current law of crossing over the line onto the court is just, and should remain black and white with no review).

    Oh, and that might as well extend to all and any team staff and/or coaches...
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  3. #78
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    So now we're advocating a suspension for anyone who becomes part of the crowd during an altercation?

    If you go in to escalate it, then yes there should be a punishment. If you go in and start being a peacekeeper, then you shouldn't have to worry about being suspended and/or fined.

    You can debate all you want about not knowing a players intent when leaving the bench, but I disagree fully.

    You watch Stephen Jackson while Ron was laying on the scorer's table and tell me what his intent was. It's pretty obvious.

    Watch the way Raja Bell reacted during the scuffle and tell me his intent wasn't to go after Horry. Rob knew Raja's intention the whole time he was walking towards him, because as soon as he got there he put his arms up and shoved him away. Then watch Marion go in and see his intent.

    Amare didn't run over there like some have suggested, he walked about 5 steps. Never shouted, never pointed, never pulled out his jersey and put his fists up. He was no threat to the situation.

    Who freaking cares if he got 10ft away from the bench? He didn't do anything to threaten anyones wellbeing, and that should be the bottom line.

    Change the rule and punish those who furthered the situation, I.E. Raja Bell. Don't ruin a great series because of someone took 2-3 steps too far.

  4. #79
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Change the rule and you'll have a bench-clearing fight again in no time, and you'll have to put the rule back in place.

    The beauty of this rule is that intent doesn't matter - if you aren't in the game at the time then stay out of it. It didn't involve you anyway.

    The DEN/NYK incident this season - how many guys were suspended for leaving the bench? (I don't remember but it wasn't many).

    The Dale Davis - Michael Smith fight shortly after the new rule - the Pacers had so many suspensions (as did the Kings) that it took several games before all the players were back.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  5. #80
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I doubt there will be a reason for a bench clearing fight.

    The game, and the style which it's played at is very different than it was 10yrs ago. There aren't many DD/Charles Oakley types left, if any.

    I can't think of any team that has that "enforcer." Maybe Ben Wallace is the closest thing to it, but he doesn't scream phsyical play by any means.

    Ron's shoving foul that started the brawl was a common foul during the mid-90s. Rik Smits makes some of these guys look soft.

  6. #81

    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    The reason there haven't been bench clearing fights is because of the rule. Not because the teams have gone coft or players have mellowed.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  7. #82
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    I think Raja Bell should've gotten a game.

    I hate it when players on the court escalate the situations, too.

    The rule is this: Its very, very hard to control the reactions of any of the playes, whether on the court or not. Its impossible to have a rule to prevent what Raja Bell did. At least its possible to ensure that the bench players don't do what Raja did.

    If this rule is eliminated the NBA is taking a step backwards in its efforts to curtail oncourt violence.
    Maybe to prevent it, but not to enforce it:

    Robert Horry - suspended one game for instigating an altercation
    Raja Bell - suspended one game for escalating an altercation

    It's just that simple.

  8. #83
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I looked it up - Nene and Jerome James each got a game for leaving the bench.

    The Pacers and Kings - with no history of animoisty whatsoever - cleared both benches.

    The only reason these guys need for a bench-clearing fight is a hard-foul and years of misguided coaching that de-facto tells them that backing-up their teammate is a sign of manlihood. So we get this false definition of "teammate" like the one SJax throws around defending his actions in Detroit.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #84
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    Maybe to prevent it, but not to enforce it:

    Robert Horry - suspended one game for instigating an altercation
    Raja Bell - suspended one game for escalating an altercation

    It's just that simple.
    Again, Jalen Rose jumped up with a "whoa - look at that" look on his face and then made sure he didn't move.

    Its a young-player mistake, just like the young-player mistake that Jalen made nine years ago.

    But just because a young player made a mistake does not make the rule bad.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #85
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    Again, Jalen Rose jumped up with a "whoa - look at that" look on his face and then made sure he didn't move.

    Its a young-player mistake, just like the young-player mistake that Jalen made nine years ago.

    But just because a young player made a mistake does not make the rule bad.
    All you have to do is replace the current rule with one that severely penalizes a player, either on the bench or on the floor, for instigating or escalating an incident, with consideration for steeper penalties for repeat offenders.

    Hell, if I'm going to get a game anyway for leaving the bench, I may as well go onto the floor and start some ****, with the way the rule is currently interpreted.

  11. #86
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    That's not true - I can't imagine how severe the penalty would be if a player came off the bench and really escalated the problem.

    The rule states

    Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000.

    Just because nobody has left the bench an escalated a fight in years doesn't mean that player would receive the same penalty as somebody who leaves the bench area. Especially in the post-Palace brawl world that the NBA operates in.

    Notice: the rule is working.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #87
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    All you have to do is replace the current rule with one that severely penalizes a player, either on the bench or on the floor, for instigating or escalating an incident, with consideration for steeper penalties for repeat offenders.

    Hell, if I'm going to get a game anyway for leaving the bench, I may as well go onto the floor and start some ****, with the way the rule is currently interpreted.
    And your interpretation would be correct. Of course, that could result in multiple games.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    That's not true - I can't imagine how severe the penalty would be if a player came off the bench and really escalated the problem.

    The rule states

    Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000.

    Just because nobody has left the bench an escalated a fight in years doesn't mean that player would receive the same penalty as somebody who leaves the bench area. Especially in the post-Palace brawl world that the NBA operates in.

    Notice: the rule is working.
    A player on the floor is just as likely as a player on the bench to escalate an incident. Maybe even more likely, because players on the floor are already running on adrenaline and emotion from playing the game.

    So, you're okay with living in a black-and-white world? Because the current rule leaves no room for a gray area, regardless of the fact that a gray area exists.

    Sorry, Jay, but that's just not realistic. And neither is this rule.

    The NBA has gotten to a point where they're penalizing players for being human and having human reactions. It is the very definition of a dictatorship.

    The rule is most certainly not working. The Spurs resorted to dirty play, and two important Suns fans that did nothing more than stand up and walk a few feet get penalized. The Spurs win; the Suns, and fans of fair play, lose.

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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    And your interpretation would be correct. Of course, that could result in multiple games.
    Perhaps. But, at the very least, I'm still going to stay on the floor and head toward the altercation.

    The only reason it hasn't happened yet is because the players foolishly believe that, if they immediately return to the bench, they can avoid punishment. With all the press this is getting, it is obvious that you're going to be suspended if you leave the bench, regardless of the explanation. Therefore, you may as well stay on the floor and get involved.

    Once this clicks in players' heads, this rule will be pretty much meaningless.

    Btw, if a player REALLY wants to fight, they're going to go on the floor and do it anyway. This rule is not going to stop them, just as it didn't during the Brawl. All that ends up happening is the would-be peacemakers remain on the bench while everyone else rushes the floor and fights.

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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I didn't see a bench-clearing situation the other night.

    The rule worked.

    You (and Charles Barkely) are trying to make the rule something its not. And yes, Raja Bell should've been suspended longer than Amare and Boris. But that's completely independent of this rule. I have no problem with this rule being enforced as a black-and-white rule because it is working to prevent an altercation between two players from developing into a bench-clearing brawl that we saw all too often prior to about 1993ish.

    This isn't anything new. Ron only wandered a few feet onto the court and didn't do anything. Ditto for Patrick Ewing. Jalen wasn't close to actually participating in the altercation. They were all suspended. The media firestorm the first time this happened in a playoff game (ten years ago this week, Miami vs. Knicks) was absolutely huge relative to this time around. The NBA has done an outstanding job of applying this rule consistently for almost fifteen years. And the NBA clearly is not a model of consistency for applying any other rules so for once they should be commended for this. If the players actually think that they can return to the bench without punishment then they're not paying attention (and they should start paying attention now.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #91
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Jay, I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I refuse to commend the NBA for being consistent in implementing a flawed rule.

    Btw:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...6&sportCat=nba

  17. #92
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Ah, you took your Knicks/Nuggets comment out while I was quoting it.

    How many players left the bench during the period between when the Artest-Wallace altercation started and when the cup was thrown. Because the NBA admitted that it wouldn't penalize the players that left the bench once that started because that was utterly unrealistic. I know Reggie was suspended but he was in street clothes. Ah, looked it up... Chauncey, Elden Campbell, Coleman. Only four players our of 14+ left the bench for that one so I'd say the rule generally worked then too.

    Now, Stephen Jackson should've been suspended for all long as Artest for escalating the situation, but I've said that since November 20, 2004.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #93
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I've read Bill's column. I did agree 100% with the portion on flopping, by the way.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #94
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I really truly believe that Horry was told to put the hard foul on Nash and near the Suns bench to see if they could get players off the bench to get them suspended for a game. Horry is not known for this type of mauling of a player and it is out of character for him to react in the way he did.

    There is where the rule is a real problem, baiting players to come off the bench is not a stretch when the stakes are this high. Players are wired to react to bang bang situations and too expect them not to is iNSANE.

  20. #95
    Member NorCal_Pacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I'm seriously thinking of suspending myself tonight. Adolf Stern (and his beatch Stu) makes me want to puke my guts out.

    If the Spurs win this series, I won't be watching any more Spurs games this post season. (especially if they get to the Finals. The last thing I want to see is another Spurs Pistons Finals)

    ---
    So we have a name for Bob - Cheap Shot Bob.
    What about Bowen? We need a good nick for him...

    ---

    oh, and is anyone else simply done with Popovich? His post game interviews are crude, especially when they lose. He's a poor loser.

    ---

    Oh and this:
    "Commissioner David Stern canceled his scheduled trip to Phoenix for Game 5. He plans to go to Cleveland instead."

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basket...spensions.html


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  21. #96
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    Ah, you took your Knicks/Nuggets comment out while I was quoting it.

    How many players left the bench during the period between when the Artest-Wallace altercation started and when the cup was thrown. Because the NBA admitted that it wouldn't penalize the players that left the bench once that started because that was utterly unrealistic. I know Reggie was suspended but he was in street clothes. Ah, looked it up... Chauncey, Elden Campbell, Coleman. Only four players our of 14+ left the bench for that one so I'd say the rule generally worked then too.

    Now, Stephen Jackson should've been suspended for all long as Artest for escalating the situation, but I've said that since November 20, 2004.
    I wanted to do some research on the Denver/NY brawl before referencing it, because my memory of it is not perfect.

    The only reason more players (or, should I say, Pacers) weren't suspended after the brawl is because there would have been no players left. No players left = forfeit = no $$$ generated for the NBA.

    The decisions made concerning the brawl were horribly lopsided anyway.

    I've already stated numerous reasons why the rule is horribly flawed, as you've done to the contrary. Though I can see your point, I just don't agree with it at all. Expecting humans to act like robots is a recipe for disaster.

  22. #97
    Member NorCal_Pacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    I liked this guy's article on the topic...

    http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kauf...day/index.html
    :thepacers
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  23. #98
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal_Pacerfan View Post
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    I liked this guy's article on the topic...

    http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kauf...day/index.html
    Bell, who actually helped escalate the situation, which is what the NBA's rules are designed to prevent, wasn't punished.
    What this shortsighted policy does is create incentive for teams to do exactly what Horry did Monday night. Why would you not send an end-of-the-bench guy onto the floor during the playoffs to commit an act of violence when the other team's best player or, even better, players are on the bench getting a rest?

    If any of those guys have the natural, in-the-moment, adrenaline-charged, human reaction of moving toward their battered teammate to help, they're gone for the next game. Your guy gets tossed too, but that's a hell of a trade. Just ask the Spurs. If the other team doesn't take the bait, well, at least you tried, and all you lose is an end-of-the-bench guy for a game.

    The rule also creates an incentive for brawls to escalate. Once a player has taken a step or two from the bench toward an altercation, there's no reason to stop short of joining in. You're already suspended, pal. Might as well keep going and get a few licks in. It's idiotic.
    QFET

    It also can't be lost on teams that when the Suns didn't escalate the incident when Bowen kicked Nash, Bowen didn't get suspended. When they did escalate the Horry incident -- Bell going nose to nose with Horry, even ignoring the bogus "leaving the bench area" charge -- Horry did get suspended.
    This is another thing. What, exactly, constitutes an "altercation?" Apparently, it's only considered an "altercation" if someone escalates it. If a player takes a cheap shot at another player, and there's no reaction, nothing happens to the instigator except, perhaps, a flagrant foul call. See the Davis/Fisher, Richardson/Okur, Bowen/Amare, etc. situations.

    That's absolutely insane.

  24. #99
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    The only reason more players (or, should I say, Pacers) weren't suspended after the brawl is because there would have been no players left. No players left = forfeit = no $$$ generated for the NBA.
    no no no no no no...

    You have to dress eight. Re-read what Rimfire said about the 97 playoffs. Its alphabetical, so those guys serve, then they come back and the next four guys sit out. That's why Starks missed Game #7.

    Although after the Houston series, one could argue that not having Starks for a Game #7 might have been a good thing....
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #100
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    Default Re: I'm about to be one pi$$ed SOB

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    I've already stated numerous reasons why the rule is horribly flawed, as you've done to the contrary. Though I can see your point, I just don't agree with it at all. Expecting humans to act like robots is a recipe for disaster.
    And allowing a free-for-all bench clearing melee is a recipe for disaster.

    Why can't we just have ?

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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