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Thread: The latest blog from MM

  1. #1
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    Default The latest blog from MM

    This is from Mark Montieth's latest blog on Indystar.com. Whether you agree with the premise of the entire article, there was one line in the story that really caught my eye. I've put it in bold.

    ________________________

    May 04, 2007
    Heroes or villains?
    Posted by Mark Montieth


    Iíve never done it, and never will. But if I were forced to make a list of the 10 favorite Indiana Pacers Iíve covered over the last 10 years, Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson probably would be on it.

    I guess I just love thugs.

    No, actually, itís because people can be complicated. That, and the fact everyone grows up in a different environment, with their own set of challenges.

    Both players have made plenty of news in the past year or so _ the past week or so, for that matter. Some of it negative, some of it exaggerated. They tend to lead undisciplined lives and can be disruptive if they arenít comfortable in their surroundings. Artest has gone a step beyond into dangerous behavior that needs some form of treatment.

    However Ö

    I was in both of their homes when they played for the Pacers _ yes, they were there, too _ and traveled to both of their hometowns. One of Artestís AAU coaches drove me through his Queensbridge neighborhood on a Sunday evening, where we watched what appeared to be drug deals taking place on dark street corners. Jacksonís mother drove me around Port Arthur, Tex., showing me the home he bought her, the home he grew up in and the church he attended every Sunday.

    I donít think of Artest as someone who went into the stands to confront a fan who threw a beer on him, or whoís had domestic issues with his wife. I donít think of Jackson as someone who went into the stands to support Artest, or was run over by a convicted felon in the parking lot of a strip club.

    I think of two guys who love basketball, have used it to escape difficult surroundings, are routinely unassuming, engaging and generous, and have initiated grassroots charity efforts in the hometowns where they beat the odds.

    And, by the way, two guys who are coachable when coached by people who know how to utilize their skills and command respect.
    Artest witnessed domestic abuse and experienced divorce as a child, although he has a close relationship with both of his parents now. Jackson never had a relationship with his biological father and his stepfather was in jail for 13 years of his childhood.

    Who did you expect them to turn out to be, Theo Huxtable?

    People who rarely step foot out of the suburbs might love to toss the T-word on them, but I have a different word for them.

    Successful.

    _________________________________________

    Is this another shot at Carlisle, or am I making too much out of this?
    It almost appears that he is saying the Pacers could have still had these two guys, and had them be productive and well behaved, if someone other than Carlisle had been the coach.

    Or maybe he is just having post-season seller's remorse.

    Again, maybe I'm just reading too much into that part of the story, but I thought it was interesting, overall.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    See - where were these articles when Rick was still here?........I have no respect for a writer that does this...total chicken ****.

    And - if JO is traded - I really expect him to throw some people under the bus too. I expect his first comment to center around the Isiah situation and how JO was "mislead" into re-signing with the Pacers.

  3. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    I'm sorry, but by any measure Rick did a great job utilitizing Artest. The system was tailer made for him. So I disagree with the premise.

    Jackson on the other hand is clearly better in a system where he can take any shot at any time he wants. And in a system where he doesn't have to think at all - he can just react. The probelm is there is really only one system like that and it isn't even the Suns - it is only the Warriors.

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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Before everyone starts responsing by saying that no matter what backround they had they still are not inexusable, lets me say lets not make this a racial thing. Its a human problem that effects all races. Don't give me percentages because the last time I checked all of us are a 100% human.

    Was the bold statement referring to Artest cause Musse and Aldeman did nothing to curb his attitude.

    They are resposible for their own attitude, personaility, and actions. Not their papas. If they were in a traditional family would they have developed positive character traits? Maybe, maybe not. There is no certainty in life.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    i never thought jax was necessarily uncoachable, i just thought he played out of control, took poor shots and disrupted the flow of offense for us. that being said he looks like a major stud for Nellie which makes a lot of sense. i just think he's not the polished player TPTB should have brought in for Rick (the same way he didn't last under Pop in SA) but was the right move for GSW

    artest has been a thorn in the side of every team he has played on. before ron went into the stands he had a major meltdown the season before with the pacers. before he was traded to indy he had a reputation. and has anything changed since being traded to sacramento? no major brawls but a variety of new disruptive and destructive behavior.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  6. #6
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm sorry, but by any measure Rick did a great job utilitizing Artest. The system was tailer made for him. So I disagree with the premise.

    Jackson on the other hand is clearly better in a system where he can take any shot at any time he wants. And in a system where he doesn't have to think at all - he can just react. The probelm is there is really only one system like that and it isn't even the Suns - it is only the Warriors.
    I rarely disagree with you, UB. But Nelson's success with Jax confirms what seemed so damn obvious but hard to believe the past three years: Rick Carlisle just does not have the discipline/respect factor in his arsenal that is needed to coach complex players.

    Rick IS great at utilizing such players and fitting them into the system at a strategic/basketball level. He is apparently inadequate at dealing with their personalities.

    And I agree with the other post saying MM is a weasel for waiting until now to call Rick out.
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    I'm dumbfounded that MM is taking so many shots at Carlisle now, in his blog but not in the paper no less.

    Then again, if you read what Sam Smith and KC Johnson said about Artest in their Tribune blogs five years ago, you'd realize that Artest hasn't changed a bit.

    It has nothing to do with being "coached by people who know how to utilize their skills and command respect."

    If that were true, we could name a coach that Artest got along with. But we can't. Floyd, Cartwright, Zeke, Carlisle, Adelman, Mussleman - every single one of them had an out of control Artest to deal with. There comes a point in time where you can't blame it on every single coach.
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  8. #8
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Wow. That's a huge shot at Rick. Too bad he never had the onions to say that when Rick was still coach.

    And I agree with UB, Rick moved heaven and earth to accommodate Ron on the floor.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    I'm not sure how you know when MM is reporting and when he is spinning. Did he just save that little nugget and hold it for when it was needed to help silence the few critics of the coaching change (and perhaps even the trade)? ....Or did he choose his words carfeully and only imply Carlisle here just to help the franchise's PR and maybe help his pal(s) in the ivory tower save a little face.

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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    Before everyone starts responsing by saying that no matter what backround they had they still are not inexusable, lets me say lets not make this a racial thing. Its a human problem that effects all races. Don't give me percentages because the last time I checked all of us are a 100% human.

    Was the bold statement referring to Artest cause Musse and Aldeman did nothing to curb his attitude.

    They are resposible for their own attitude, personaility, and actions. Not their papas. If they were in a traditional family would they have developed positive character traits? Maybe, maybe not. There is no certainty in life.
    I completely agree here. Its unfortunate that they had a rough up-bringing...that they did not have "this or that" when they were growing up.....but I'm glad that they had the opportunity to get out of that by using their skills to pull themselves out of that situation and therefore giving them the chance to make a better life for themselves and family.

    Sure, they had it rough...but I'm sorry, that does not excuse them for their behavior as adults. Unfortunately, the main impression that I get from MM ( given his "What else should we expect from them?" comment ) is that he essentially gives them a "pass" on their off-court actions/behavior simply because they have given to their communities but mainly cuz "they didn't know any better". Us regular humans would not get a "pass" on such behaviors......adults like SJax and Artest shouldn't have the same. If my co-worker did the same type of stuff ( get in a brawl with some idiots, shot their guns in some strip club parking lot, or beat up his wife ), I would think the same thing...not that they were "thugs"...but that they should not be excused for such behavior because of their up-bringing.

    NOTE - I'm only speaking to the context of the article where MM is commenting on their off-court behavior....which shouldn't ( but unfortunately does, at times ) affect how they are percieved on the court.
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Yeah I have to say that this is one of the worst written articles I've ever read from MM. To a certain degree I believe that Rick may not have been the right coach for Jack or he didn't coach him effectively but lumping Ron Artest into the discussion shot holes in his blame Carlisle theory.

    MM is a spinster. Always has been... always will. You usually have to take what he says with a grain or two of salt but here he just seems to be piling on.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    I'm just glad that Jax is doing great and no longer with us. More power to him.

    I suspect he has a great press agent or publicist who goes behind him and cleans up his act with good damage control such as aid to the communities. Then again, he may genuine in his overtures.

    Since Jax's trade, I do believe that RC was the root cause of his inferior play here. Jax has the type of personality that few coaches can handle, Nellie, Riles, and Phil being among them. Jax just can't play on a team that uses set plays and plays a half-court offense.
    .

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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    Jax just can't play on a team that uses set plays and plays a half-court offense.
    (further)... where he relies on instincts and not thinking.

    And where there are enough possessions that if he kills a few with unforced TOs or bad shots taken early in the shot clock, that there is a chance to make up for it.

    And that's really what Seth is saying in the official SJ/ Warriors thread. He still makes the same boneheaded decisions. But he's killing a much smaller % of his team's possessions so they can live with it.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  14. #14

    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    It all comes down to discipline!

    Both players got out of hand because IMO the Pacers' disciplinary system was flawed! There was an recent article where Bird stated he and RC wanted to come down harder on players, but Walsh wouldn't allow it. (If I find the article, I'll post a link here.) On the one hand, I understand DW's refusal to be too tough because by then when Bird and RC wanted to be hardliners the damage had already been done. Stepping on guy's necks probably would have been viewed as singleing out players rather than disciplining them. But it was obvious (to me) that the need for stronger discipline was in great need even before the brawl, i.e., all the flagrant fouls, property damage, aruging w/refs (until the league put a stop to it), etc.

    Artest and Jackson may be "successful" in so far as their rise from object poverty to fame, but celebraty uncheck tends to lead to trouble. A strong coach w/the latitude to lay down the law would have prevented alot of disciplinary-type problems this team has faced over the last 3-5 yrs.

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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    I stole the Mercedes because the cops didn't stop me.
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Many of you are forgetting that this is a blog

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Many of you are forgetting that this is a blog
    I thought about that... But then IF we can believe he was taking a shot at Carlisle there then wouldn't that mean he sat on that information?

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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Let's just say that if Jax had gotten two ejections while playing in the playoffs for the Pacers he'd have been suspended a game or two by the league.
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    (further)... where he relies on instincts and not thinking.

    And where there are enough possessions that if he kills a few with unforced TOs or bad shots taken early in the shot clock, that there is a chance to make up for it.

    And that's really what Seth is saying. He makes the same boneheaded decisions. But he's killing a much smaller % of his team's possessions so they can live with it.
    Great post and I agree.

    Also makes you wonder what a guy like Tinsley would be averaging on GS. Either way, it was Ricks time to go. Whether MM is taking shots at him or not, it really no longer matters. We'll see if Rick was the true problem once we see our team play next year.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I rarely disagree with you, UB. But Nelson's success with Jax confirms what seemed so damn obvious but hard to believe the past three years: Rick Carlisle just does not have the discipline/respect factor in his arsenal that is needed to coach complex players.

    Rick IS great at utilizing such players and fitting them into the system at a strategic/basketball level. He is apparently inadequate at dealing with their personalities.

    And I agree with the other post saying MM is a weasel(led) for waiting until now to call Rick out.
    By "complex players", I trust you mean players with strong personalities because there's really nothing complex about Ron Artest nor Stephen Jackson. One simply has a larger ego than the other, and the franchise catered to said egos until one ran amock and the other no longer cared enough.

    When you look back at this Pacers franchise what you see is that there hasn't been a coach with a strong persona since Larry Brown. Bird had success here as the head coach, but let's not forget that the '99/00 team was mature and disciplined enough that it could have practically ran itself. It stands to reason that the dam began to burst after all the pro vets left and the youngsters began taking over. I honestly believe that one reason Reggie hung around for so long was because he was an icon who could teach the younger player how to truly play the game. Unfortunately, not enough of his professionalism rubbed off on the right players - those players like Artest and Jackson who mgmt came to depend on for productivity. So, what does any of this have to do w/RC? Everything!

    Bird and DW both have said they fell in love w/talent. There's no question that Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson are two very talented players. What mgmt failed to do was recognize the makeup of the players on the roster - character wise - and find the right coach who was a strong enough disciplinarian who could put the brakes on things long before they got out of hand. Zeke really didn't have to go that far in the form of disciplinary measures because the only player who was acting up at the time was Artest (volume of flagrant fouls during his tenure). Other than probably a few personality conflicts among the players, there really weren't many problems with improper conduct under Zeke. Perhaps it helped having the right asst. coaches around him who could defuse things and put a stop to most of the BS before things got out of hand. RC wasn't that fortunate for his last 3 yrs here. His greatest mentoring asset was assoc. coach Mike Brown, and as we've learned since then once he left things really began to fall apart as far as RC's inability to truly relate to the "street balla" type players. Still, it was on him to reel players in before they got out of control. I'd venture to say he looked away concerning certain infractions committed by certain players for many of the reasons he mentioned during one of his interviews on the "RC Radio Show", i.e., so many egos to cater to - player, agents, GMs, public, etc.

    As to the Monteith blog entry, yeah, he kinda put RC out there after the fact, but hey! He's no Bob Kravtiz, so did anyone really expect him to be so crass while RC was still around?

  21. #21
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    I'd venture to say he looked away concerning certain infractions committed by certain players for many of the reasons he mentioned during one of his interviews on the "RC Radio Show", i.e., so many egos to cater to - player, agents, GMs, public, etc.
    Gets back to character--this time I'm talking about Rick's character.

    Rick should never have put up with the nonsense. He should have resigned before catering to the GMs and owners.

    Either he would have lost his job . . . or . . . the nuckleheads would have shaped up and good things would have followed. For now, Nelson looks to be getting good responses from his immediate calling out and fining of Jackson for acting up.

    If that falls apart and Nelson gets leaned on by Mullie, Nelson should resign too.

    Character says you do the right thing regardless of the consequences.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

  22. #22

    Default Re: The latest blog from MM

    Couldn't agree more, McKeyFan. I think that's one of the biggest reasons many coaches want that GM title alongside being a head coach. They don't want to have to look to mgmt for every "coaching" decision, and part of coaching is instilling discipline immediately when necessary. Of course, part of that is the franchise having a sound disciplinary policy in place. The other is mgmt giving the coach the latitude to make some "on-the-court/in-the-locker-room" decisions for himself.

    Whenever you have a coach who feels he has to look over his shoulder or worry that his every disciplinary action will be called into question, it makes it very difficult to lead. It's kinda like having kids and they act up w/momma when daddy's not home because they know momma can't do anything with them. Eventually, they recognize where the real power lays and does everything to undermine what little authority momma has. But if dear ole dad steps up and makes it clear that the power also rests w/momma - a unitied front as it were - eventually the foolishness stops (or slows down considerable) once they realize daddy has momma's back.

    Ok...Parenting 101 class is over.

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