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Thread: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

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    Default New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    I hope you read the MM and Wells blogs - they are always much more interesting than what they write in their regular Indystar.com articles.

    I would have no real problem bringing Croshere back for the minimum - but I wouldn't get all excited about it either - I'd rather bring in someone who will fit the new NBA better.

    I'm relieved to read that Daniels injury is more or different than just tendonitis. Inserting Daniels as the point guard would be interesting and I think it could work in the right offensive system and if the shooting guard is someone who can also handle the ball and who is an excellent shooter. For example a backcourt of Daniels and Ray Allen or Daniels and Joe Johnson I think would be fantastic and it would more than any other changes completely change the whole look of this Pacers team.


    More than anything I hope this blog sparks some discusson, but it probably won't because it doesn't involve the Warriors and Jackson



    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/


    Which way will this breeze blow?
    Posted by Mark Montieth


    The blog on the trade with Golden State inspired some reaction, to say the least. And solved nothing, of course. So let's get on with our lives and talk about something else _ like the trade the Pacers made with Golden State's first-round playoff opponent, Dallas, last July.

    If the eight-player deal with the Warriors in January hit like a hurricane, this was more of a gentle breeze. But it could have lasting impact on the Pacers. It wasn't a gun-to-the-head deal like those involving Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson _ and the importance of that backdrop can never be underestimated _ but one the Pacers made willingly. It can therefore be judged objectively, because the playing field was level.

    The Pacers sent Austin Croshere to the Mavericks for Marquis Daniels, a move made in their Era of Uptempo Intentions, which turned out to be more like a fleeting thought than an era. Rick Carlisle quickly reverted to his instincts and ran the offense through Jermaine O'Neal, which immediately reduced the value of Daniels. (Not to mention Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Danny Granger, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Jeff Foster.)

    Daniels had only spurts of production, averaging 7.1 points in 17.8 minutes _ both career-lows. A knee condition that had gone untreated in Dallas eventually flared and had him in and out of the lineup. He doesn't need surgery, just rest and treatment, and is expected to be healthy next season.

    Croshere, meanhwhile, got stuck behind Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas' traffic jam and had his least productive season since he was a rookie, averaging 3.7 points on 35 percent shooting in 11.9 minutes per game.

    Carlisle was a bit disingenuous regarding Daniels. At the end of the season he referred to his absence as a primary reason for the team not making the playoffs. During the season, however, he didn't make Daniels a regular part of the rotation until he had no choice, despite queries from management. Daniels had four DNP-CDs early in the season and was used erratically until the Jan. 17 trade with Golden State. With the new players still en route and a skeleton roster on hand, Daniels got 39 minutes the next night in Miami and scored 23 points.

    He went on to average 13.2 points over a five-game stretch until his knee forced him to the sideline for eight games. He returned to average 18 points over three games _ all victories _ on 55 percent shooting, but was reinjured early in a road loss at Toronto.

    He sat out the next game, scored nine points in 22 minutes in the next game against Phoenix, then had 16 points in 19 minutes in a rematch with the Suns. He aggravated his knee injury in that game, however, and was lost for the season.

    The outcome of the trade for the Pacers will depend on what Daniels does in a system more suited to his skills. He's indicated he can produce. As a rookie playing for Don Nelson in Dallas, he averaged 14 points over the final 24 games and 20.7 over the final 11 when he took over at point guard for an injured Steve Nash.

    He had 30 points, eight rebounds, seven assists and four steals against Memphis. He had 31 points and nine rebounds at Miami. He had 33 points at Seattle. He had 14 points, nine rebounds and nine assists against Seattle.

    A lot of Pacers fans are hoping Jamaal Tinsley is traded, but wondering who can be gotten to replace him. The answer might already be on the roster. Daniels can create with uncanny penetration, scoring in the lane and setting up teammates for open shots. He doesn?t have much shooting range (24 percent from the 3-point line for his career), but it's a luxury, not a necessity, for point guards to hit 3-pointers. Management wants to see if this would work, and perhaps the next coach will give it a look.

    At this stage of his career, Croshere is what he is: a solid veteran who can contribute off the bench and be a productive spot starter ... a good rebounder, but a poor defender .. a below-average shooter (38 percent for his career). Daniels, who is six years younger at 26, has both intriguing history and remaining upside.

    There's this, too. Croshere is a free agent after this season. He'll probably be available for something close to the veteran?s minimum. If the Pacers want him back, they can probably get him. He still owns his home in the Geist area, his wife?s family lives here and he wants to work in the Pacers' front office someday.

    In that case, the Pacers would get a good player in Daniels for the small price of loaning out Croshere for one season. That would be reminiscent of when they essentially traded Mark Jackson for Jalen Rose in the summer of 1996 and then got Jackson back for spare parts mid-way through the following season.

    Oh, wait. I can hear the arguments already. Croshere was a leader and Daniels is a troublemaker.

    Croshere was indeed professional. But the impact of that is minimal from a bench player. There are other pros in the Pacers? locker room, too, although not enough of them, but they didn?t prevent all that went wrong last season. Ultimately, the head coach sets the tone. If he's a strong leader, most players fall in line.

    It's not right, meanwhile, to portray Daniels as a thug as many fans seem anxious to do. I haven't heard anyone who knows him characterize him as anything other than a nice guy. He never had off-court issues that I'm aware of until this season. He wasn't charged with anything at Club Rio. He was charged with two misdemeanors after several fights broke out at 8 Seconds Saloon that night in February. He insists upon his innocence, and, like Tinsley, has refused a plea bargain.

    Until he's found guilty of something, and something significant, it's best to reserve judgment on his character and pass judgment only on what's happened on the court _ and what could happen.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    We're going to put the point guard position in the hands of a man who can't even stay on the floor? That sounds really stupid...



    ...and we've already done that for the past three or four years.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    We're going to put the point guard position in the hands of a man who can't even stay on the floor? That sounds really stupid...



    ...and we've already done that for the past three or four years.
    Agreed.
    The Raps can send us one of their PGs together with Mitchell for all I care. Maybe TJ Ford. It will be like the good Tinsley arrived to work everyday.

    I'm ready to give the Raps a lot for this. For example, I think they can really use a guy like Foster, to help their rebound issues.
    TJ >> JT.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Is anyone else depressed that a knee injury that kept one our best players out for 1/3 of a season can only be treated by rest? It's just gonna come back.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    This is one of Monteith's better efforts - though it is funny that now that Carlisle is gone he's turning on him for his game plan - don't recall a whole lot of that the last 4 seasons.

    As for PG, there was this Anthony Johnson guy ...

    Anyway, the Daniels deal may be the one good transaction the Pacers have made over the past 4 years. It didn't pan out this season but I still think he'll have an impact.

    But not as a point guard.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Is anyone else depressed that a knee injury that kept one our best players out for 1/3 of a season can only be treated by rest? It's just gonna come back.
    Agreed, and I'm not sold on Marquis as the starting PG anyway even if he was healthy. This team desperately needs a legitimate outside threat at that position (look at all the open threes that JT got this year).

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Is anyone else depressed that a knee injury that kept one our best players out for 1/3 of a season can only be treated by rest? It's just gonna come back.
    I'm not depressed if he hasn't had rest in the past. For example...I pulled a muscle in my back and in my neck 2 weeks ago. I stopped playing basketball everyday and stopped lifting. I just stayed at home and took my meds while doing some neck exercises a physical therapist told me to. Now I am fully healed....YAY!!

    Daniels might not have had the opportunity to rest, especially over the course of an 82-game season. It may be EXTENDED rest that he needs. Plus I am sure he will be doing some physical therapy.

    I am not saying that it isn't something we should be concerned about, but it is nothing to be depressed over. JMO

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Joe Johnson? I'd love to have him in our backcourt.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    I would certainly have no problem at all bringing Croshere back for the vets minimum. I disagree with the opion regarding the impact of a bench player's professionalism on other members of the team. I believe it all comes down to respect. As long as Croshere has the respect of his teammates, then I believe his professionalism will have an impact on the rest of the team.

    Many on the forum have stated a desire to see Daniels play at the point. I was on an out-of-town assignment most of the season and did not see many of the games. But if Daniels can remain healthy and works out well at the point, this would go a long way in bolstering our ability to defend opposing PGs. It would also mean that we could dump Tinsley without having to get a PG in return... and anything that expands our ability to trade Tinsley is a good thing in my book.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Is anyone else depressed that a knee injury that kept one our best players out for 1/3 of a season can only be treated by rest? It's just gonna come back.


    We've heard the ol' "knee just needs rest" treatment before, and the outcome wasn't good.
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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Personally I'd love to see Marquis at the point. If he hadn't missed the last 1/3 of the season, the Pacers would be in the playoffs right now, probably ahead of Washington and Orlando, maybe even New Jersey.

    Putting Daniels at the point would require a couple of changes to the current roster. You would need to have a SG would could help with ball-handling. Joe Johnson and Ray Allen would be great, but are likely pipe dreams. Dunleavy could do it, but he doesn't cut it defensively. Also, we'd need a solid backup PG who could also produce as a starter. Macleod looked like he could fill this role late in the season. Tinsley could also do this if he could accept 20 min/game.

    I hope that resting his knee doesn't mean that Marquis can't shoot 1,000 jump shots a day over the summer. If he had Dunleavy's range he'd be a borderline all-star.
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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    There were rumors earlier in the season that both Daniels and Jermaine were suffering from "bone-on-bone" injuries, a la Bender.

    Did any new information on that ever surface?

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    We're going to put the point guard position in the hands of a man who can't even stay on the floor? That sounds really stupid...
    We're talking about Marquis Daniels or Jamal Tinsley?


    ...and we've already done that for the past three or four years.
    That's not necessarily true. It depends on what the injury was to begin with. Sometimes injuries beget injuries or irritations, and with rest the secondary problems, i.e. tendinitis, can heal allowing the rest of the area to heal. They don't just rest players in that situation. There is treatment, and that can often mean a cortisone shot, which if the issue is inflammation the shot can really calm things down in the area to induce healing.


    One response above said he's not sold on Dainels being the PG, as the Pacers need a player who can be an outside threat. It would be nice, but I would think a key would be to have a PG who can be an outside threat AND/OR be a good defender. Tinsley is so apathetic on defense and so poor of a shooter, Daniels would be a major upgrade, even if just for team chemistry. Daniels would be an upgrade.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    There were rumors earlier in the season that both Daniels and Jermaine were suffering from "bone-on-bone" injuries, a la Bender.

    Did any new information on that ever surface?
    Both of those reports were proven to be untrue

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm relieved to read that Daniels injury is more or different than just tendonitis.
    Did I miss something? It sounded like it was exactly tendonitis.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Did I miss something? It sounded like it was exactly tendonitis.

    -Bball
    Three reasons why I don't think that is all it is.

    1) MM says it was untreated in Dallas - that seems strange to me since about every player has knee tendonitis to some degree. And it is treated every day by rest, ice and rest

    2) MM says Marquis re-injured in a road loss at Toronto. Knee tendonitis isn't something that you re-injure

    3) I remember reading something probably from Indystar.com or pacers.com (sometime in march) that the injury was something in addition to just knee tendonitis

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by microwave_oven View Post
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    I'm not depressed if he hasn't had rest in the past. For example...I pulled a muscle in my back and in my neck 2 weeks ago. I stopped playing basketball everyday and stopped lifting. I just stayed at home and took my meds while doing some neck exercises a physical therapist told me to. Now I am fully healed....YAY!!

    Daniels might not have had the opportunity to rest, especially over the course of an 82-game season. It may be EXTENDED rest that he needs. Plus I am sure he will be doing some physical therapy.

    I am not saying that it isn't something we should be concerned about, but it is nothing to be depressed over. JMO

    I don't know. The article says that his injury initially happened while with Dallas. Did he not get a chance to rest it during the off-season before he was traded here?

    He sure wasn't being worn down from playing time under Avery, or Rick prior to the GS trade. I always take a sideways look at a report that says rest will heal a knee injury of any kind.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Tendonitits of my ankles flared up because of too much exercise on the treadmill. LOTS of rest and ice and Advil later I was able to go back to the treadmill where it immediately flared up again.
    IMO rest, ice, and anti-inflammatories relieve the symptoms but offer no cure.

    But this is better answered by Kaufman.
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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Seed View Post
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    Agreed.
    The Raps can send us one of their PGs together with Mitchell for all I care. Maybe TJ Ford. It will be like the good Tinsley arrived to work everyday.

    I'm ready to give the Raps a lot for this. For example, I think they can really use a guy like Foster, to help their rebound issues.
    TJ >> JT.
    Actually, I've been thinking that since the Raps need rebounding, and the Pacers need shooting, how about a Mo Peterson for Foster trade?

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Marquis at the point works in limited minutes, but I don't see him as our starter. His role as 6th man/scoring boost off the bench seemed ideal for him.

    He's a unique player for us. He's amazing at getting to the rim and finishing. "Uncanny" may be even a better word to describe it. I would watch him snake his way in there and just wonder, "How did he get THAT to go in?" Then he would do it again and again.

    But Tinsley also can get to and finish around the rim, and he's a better outside shooter and distributer than Marquis. And when you can be described as a less effective 3pt shooter than Jamaal Tinsley, a starting point guard you aren't. Plus, his on-the-court demeanor is even more aloof than JT's, which isn't what I'd like to see at the point, anyway.

    But man what a player he'd be if he could shoot even 35% from long-range.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I don't know. The article says that his injury initially happened while with Dallas. Did he not get a chance to rest it during the off-season before he was traded here?

    He sure wasn't being worn down from playing time under Avery, or Rick prior to the GS trade. I always take a sideways look at a report that says rest will heal a knee injury of any kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Tendonitits of my ankles flared up because of too much exercise on the treadmill. LOTS of rest and ice and Advil later I was able to go back to the treadmill where it immediately flared up again.
    IMO rest, ice, and anti-inflammatories relieve the symptoms but offer no cure.

    But this is better answered by Kaufman.
    Touche

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Seed View Post
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    Agreed.
    The Raps can send us one of their PGs together with Mitchell for all I care. Maybe TJ Ford. It will be like the good Tinsley arrived to work everyday.

    I'm ready to give the Raps a lot for this. For example, I think they can really use a guy like Foster, to help their rebound issues.
    TJ >> JT.

    I'd rather have Jose Calderon than TJ Ford, Trust me.. .And he is a Pass 1st PG

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Montieth
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    The Pacers sent Austin Croshere to the Mavericks for Marquis Daniels, a move made in their Era of Uptempo Intentions, which turned out to be more like a fleeting thought than an era. Rick Carlisle quickly reverted to his instincts and ran the offense through Jermaine O'Neal, which immediately reduced the value of Daniels. (Not to mention Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Danny Granger, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Jeff Foster.)
    so it was really rick carlisle holding back the pacers? funny how this never came up before, as rimfire points out.

    blame it on rick, or blame it on jermaine, but i think the pointing finger should be directed at management most of all. you decide to change from a halfcourt to an up-tempo philosophy, yet you retain the same coach and most of the same core players? isn't that like expecting a slogan campaign to change the public perception of your team... oh wait.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Montieth
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    A lot of Pacers fans are hoping Jamaal Tinsley is traded, but wondering who can be gotten to replace him. The answer might already be on the roster. Daniels can create with uncanny penetration, scoring in the lane and setting up teammates for open shots. He doesn?t have much shooting range (24 percent from the 3-point line for his career), but it's a luxury, not a necessity, for point guards to hit 3-pointers. Management wants to see if this would work, and perhaps the next coach will give it a look.
    in terms of creating a shot, yes, quis is basically a taller tinsley who can finish much better. but tins is also the primary ball handler and press breaker - quis imo doesn't have the ball handling/court vision for this. also quis is not all that quick so when it comes to defending fast point guards, he may not be a big improvement over tins.

    still, it's an option. i've always wondered why quis rarely got looks at pg last season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Montieth
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    Croshere was indeed professional. But the impact of that is minimal from a bench player. There are other pros in the Pacers? locker room, too, although not enough of them, but they didn?t prevent all that went wrong last season. Ultimately, the head coach sets the tone. If he's a strong leader, most players fall in line.
    carlisle's been gone what, a week? and the knives are out already.

    in truth, i do think that carlisle was at fault for not being able to establish a disciplined, motivated locker room, for whatever reason. the mix of players we had didn't help, but ultimately it was still carlisle's job to make it work.

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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Inserting Daniels as the point guard would be interesting and I think it could work in the right offensive system and if the shooting guard is someone who can also handle the ball and who is an excellent shooter.
    Assuming that TPTB decide to keep Granger and Shawne....I don't mind trying it out....the only way that we can give Shawne any meaningful minutes is to have Marquis play some backup ( not Starting ) PG minutes. Shifting Marquis to some backup PG minutes would allow Shawne to play a decent 20+ minutes as a backup SF while giving Granger, Marquis and Dunleavy about 30+ minutes a game as well in the SG/SF rotation.

    But that's one of the problems that we have on our roster, we have too many SF. Unlike TPTB, I am not too comfortable about playing Small Ball and playing Shawne and Granger any decent minutes at the backup PF spot. I prefer to play both Granger and Shawne at the SF spot simply cuz that's their best position.
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    Default Re: New info on Marquis Daniels injury - excellent blog by Mark Montieth

    Reasons why this worries me:

    So the only guy on the team who is really a 2 guard (size and defensive match up, minus a shot) they want to be the starting Point Guard.

    Isn't one of the major flaws of this team stopping quick guards who dribble penetrate? Daniels is a good defender, but name a starting Point Guard he can keep in front of him consistently? Unless they are going to allow JO and Ike to have 10 fouls a game, you can't have point guards getting to the rim at will.

    You want another starting Point Guard has never played a full season with missing time with an injury.

    Reason I like this:

    He is extremely effective when given run, almost his entire career. He is easily one of there best defenders and players.

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