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Thread: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Let Jax have a few wins in the playoffs. I can even enjoy it a little.

    But character creates plot. He'll be in the center of mud soon enough. His mock arrest routine confirms all our suspicions that he never was sorry, never thought he did anything wrong, never was able to pull his head out of his selfish ____ and see reality.

    The Pacers are done with Jax. The GMs talk like Tinsley will be gone. JO is likely to be traded. We are very possibly on the brink of a fresh slate.

    That makes me a happy Pacer fan.

    I like the fact that we missed the playoffs and we missed a draft pick. It's the very best scenario to force TPTB to make significant moves to change things. No hoping on some lucky pick to change things around.

    I'm a happy Pacer fan.

    Generally, I like Rick Carlisle, but it looks like he'll be let go. He focuses on fundamentals and he's disciplined and fundamental in many ways . . . except for meting out discipline among the players. This characteristic of Carlisle drives me bonkers. We're likely to get a new coach next year who operates in reality in this sphere.

    This makes me a happy Pacer fan.

    Shawn Williams looks like a player. Ike Diogu can score. Dunleavy and Murphy have the maturity and home training to be positive, solid bench players if the coach makes that call. Granger is getting better. We could possibly trade JO for a point guard that can pass AND shoot AND play defense (can you imagine?).

    I'm a happy Pacer fan.

    Some times things have to get worse before they get better. That's what's happening right now, I believe. TPTB must finally accept that we are broke and must be fixed. Good things could possibly be on the horizon. I could not say that when the last two seasons started.

    Last year, I kept telling my girlfriend, a Pistons fan, that the fun and games would catch up with them. The coach removed the leash and the kids ran wild and then got gobbled up in the playoffs when discipline and defense are required.

    Let Golden State have fun. The kids are running wild under Nelson. They may win one more, but then the party will be over and we'll see how well they grind through next season.

    Meanwhile, the Pacers are taking their medicine early. We've got a summer to make trades, adjust to the new coach, and combine milk drinkers with good players and disciplined basketball. It's not flashy, and you don't get to act like an adolescent and perform mock arrests and such, but over the long haul it leads to championships.

    I'm a happy Pacer fan.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Tell me who is going to trade for Tinsley?

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    JO + Tins for Real Point Guard.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac View Post
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    Tell me who is going to trade for Tinsley?
    I don' think any GMs....even ones still celebrating 4/20....would do that.

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    One man show ajbry's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by indyman37 View Post
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    I don' think any GMs....even ones still celebrating 4/20....would do that.

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Good Post Mckey Fan, very thoughtful. I don't Know if I agree with everything, but I really did enjoy reading it.
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    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    JO + Tins for Real Point Guard.
    Moving Jermaine alone is going to be hard, add Jamaal's 6 million and it will be even harder, also the fact that no one in the NBA is going to want to trade for Jamaal will just make it harder for us to get anything good for JO.

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    Tyrant maragin's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac View Post
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    Tell me who is going to trade for Tinsley?
    Someone who drinks the JO koolaid, perhaps?

    EDIT: Looks like you answered this above

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Let Jax have a few wins in the playoffs. I can even enjoy it a little.

    But character creates plot. He'll be in the center of mud soon enough. His mock arrest routine confirms all our suspicions that he never was sorry, never thought he did anything wrong, never was able to pull his head out of his selfish ____ and see reality.
    That's the first thing that I thought of when I read the thread about him doing that......he maybe competitive and plays with heart....but there is something that can be said about being a classless jerk. I may regret that we traded away the SJax "the player" for Dunleavy....but I won't miss that we traded SJax "the person ( much less the mouth )" that we traded away.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The Pacers are done with Jax. The GMs talk like Tinsley will be gone. JO is likely to be traded. We are very possibly on the brink of a fresh slate.

    That makes me a happy Pacer fan.

    I like the fact that we missed the playoffs and we missed a draft pick. It's the very best scenario to force TPTB to make significant moves to change things. No hoping on some lucky pick to change things around.
    What's done is done....and we can't change things....we got rid of SJax and Harrington for 2 players that are slightly above average at best. We have made our bed....let's just move on.

    But I will admit that there's a part of me that doesn't mind that we are in this situation...no matter how bad it may seem. The only "ray of hope" that I can see out of all this is that there is a very small chance that there will definitely be some changes during this offseason. The problem is that ( given what changes we have made this season ), I am not entirely confident in whether TPTB will make the right type of changes or continue on their path of "going nowhere fast".

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Generally, I like Rick Carlisle, but it looks like he'll be let go. He focuses on fundamentals and he's disciplined and fundamental in many ways . . . except for meting out discipline among the players. This characteristic of Carlisle drives me bonkers. We're likely to get a new coach next year who operates in reality in his sphere.
    I have a feeling that changing coaches maybe the start ( if not the end ) of our "offseason" plan. Who knows how the team of "mediocre" players will react to a coach like Adelman or Fratello? Either way, if it happens, I think it will be for the better. Hopefully TPTB really does their homework and get a coach that does fit the primary core of players that we will probably have.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Shawn Williams looks like a player. Ike Diogu can score. Dunleavy and Murphy have the maturity and home training to be positive, solid bench players if the coach makes that call. Granger is getting better. We could possibly trade JO for a point guard that can pass AND shoot AND play defense (can you imagine?).
    Wow...name me one PG that can do all those 3 things and I tell you that we won't be able to get him...even if it were for JONeal. At best...we are going to get some decent 2nd scoring options at the backcourt.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Some times things have to get worse before they get better. That's what's happening right now, I believe. TPTB must finally accept that we are broke and must be fixed. Good things could possibly be on the horizon. I could not say that when the last two seasons started.
    The only concern I have is that TPTB could choose the "path of least resistance"...as in make changes here and there...but not address the key problems that we have....or even worse.....we remain the mediocre team that we are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Last year, I kept telling my girlfriend, a Pistons fan, that the fun and games would catch up with them. The coach removed the leash and the kids ran wild and then got gobbled up in the playoffs when discipline and defense are required.

    Let Golden State have fun. The kids are running wild under Nelson. They may win one more, but then the party will be over and we'll see how well they grind through next season.

    Meanwhile, the Pacers are taking their medicine early. We've got a summer to make trades, adjust to the new coach, and combine milk drinkers with good players and disciplined basketball. It's not flashy, and you don't get to act like an adolescent and perform mock arrests and such, but over the long haul it leads to championships.

    I'm a happy Pacer fan.
    I guess you've jumped on early to the "Sunshine" bandwagon while looking forward...not backward. I don't mind rebuilding...as long as I know that we are rebuilding. This means moving JONeal for the players that we need to build around a core of existing players. As long as I know that we are going to make a change...any change....then I will be happy.
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    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    I don't see Jackson being classless with his pre-game arrest routine. I see it as having a sense of humor about a tough situation and going out there loose like Nellie told them to. You know, with basketball being a game, it should be fun, and humor can be part of that fun. I think some of you guys have been watching Carlisle Robot Wars for a wee bit too long.

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac View Post
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    Moving Jermaine alone is going to be hard, add Jamaal's 6 million and it will be even harder, also the fact that no one in the NBA is going to want to trade for Jamaal will just make it harder for us to get anything good for JO.
    A healthy Tinsley can get you 14/8/4 as a starter.....at his salary, thats not too shabby. Someone desperate for a point guard who's seen Tinsley's flashes of brilliance will trade for him.

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Why is it so many teams just don't appreciate their point guards? How many times has Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups and Andre Miller been traded?

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Why is it so many teams just don't appreciate their point guards? How many times has Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups and Andre Miller been traded?
    Thank you. We shouldn't trade Jamaal until we see him play in a new system with a new coach first. It's not like we're going to get much in return for him anyway so why not give it a shot. Of course, he needs to seriously work on that jumper. If we do keep Jamaal, I want Mark Jackson here at least as an assistant.

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    Tyrant maragin's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Why is it so many teams just don't appreciate their point guards? How many times has Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups and Andre Miller been traded?
    Jason Kidd - Traded from Phoenix to Dallas to NJ (2 trades, 3 teams)

    Chauncey Billups - Boston, traded to Toronto. Then the nuggets traded him to Orlando. Then Minnesota. Then Detroit. (2+ trades, 6 teams)

    Andre Miller - Cleveland, Clippers, Nuggets, Philadelphia (2+ trades, 4 teams)

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    We shouldn't trade Jamaal until we see him play in a new system with a new coach first. It's not like we're going to get much in return for him anyway so why not give it a shot.
    but even if he can play OK, do you really think public sentiment will ALLOW them to keep him?

    for that matter, that raises interesting questions:

    did management screw the pooch by yielding to the very real public pressure to move SJackson? and would moving Tinsley be a similar error?

    to what extent will any moves be tempered by public opinion? you have to admit that the pacers are held in low esteem right now.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Some times things have to get worse before they get better. That's what's happening right now, I believe. TPTB must finally accept that we are broke and must be fixed. Good things could possibly be on the horizon. I could not say that when the last two seasons started.
    not really sure if i see the good things on the horizon that you do, but yes i do believe this is the situation we find ourselves in now. we need some really smart moves come summer.


    Quote Originally Posted by maragin View Post
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    Jason Kidd - Traded from Phoenix to Dallas to NJ (2 trades, 3 teams)

    Chauncey Billups - Boston, traded to Toronto. Then the nuggets traded him to Orlando. Then Minnesota. Then Detroit. (2+ trades, 6 teams)

    Andre Miller - Cleveland, Clippers, Nuggets, Philadelphia (2+ trades, 4 teams)
    just goes to show that it *is* possible to get an elite pg in trade.

  17. #17
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slyder View Post
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    but even if he can play OK, do you really think public sentiment will ALLOW them to keep him?

    for that matter, that raises interesting questions:

    did management screw the pooch by yielding to the very real public pressure to move SJackson? and would moving Tinsley be a similar error?

    to what extent will any moves be tempered by public opinion? you have to admit that the pacers are held in low esteem right now.
    They should've moved Tinsley before Sjax if it was at all possible. Of course it probably wasn't. The people who'd want him are about 10 Pacer fans who've yet to see the light.

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    I'm with you McKeyFan, I hope there are going to be big changes to the team.

    After Carlisle gets the sack and JO requests a trade, we will be able to include one of our bad contracts (Tinsley?) for some new backcourt players and a big expiring contract à la Theo Ratliff or Kwame Brown.
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Just to make sure we're not oversimplifying the ease of getting a good PG:

    Billups played for 3 teams in his first two years, then he didn't do a lot for Minnesota. Detroit was smart to play him as more of a scoring PG, but they did get lucky on him.

    Andre Miller became expendable because Cleveland was in love with two things: the perceived upside of Darius Miles and the prospect of drafting a supposed "can't miss" guard--DaJuan Wagner. Miller signed as a FA w/Denver, and later got shipped to land Iverson.

    Kidd was traded to land Finley and Cassell--not a bad PG at the time, and later for Starbury before his trade value plummeted.

    In the later two cases, a proven point was only shipped for something pretty substantial. Outside of O'Neal, we don't have that. We can't offer cap relief, picks, or another player on our roster of substantial value. Granger has some appeal as a decent SF on a rookie contract who may turn into a very good starter, but that's not enough. Diogu is a mystery. The only way I see us getting a very good (non all-star) PG while keeping O'Neal is to send Granger + Tins + a future pick for a PG and filler. I wouldn't do that, because I think we're in this funk for at least a couple of years and we need the draft badly.

    I'd love to pick up a Bibby, because I think a change of scenery would do him some good, but I don't see the Kings taking Tinsley w/ Artest already there.

    We need to move O'Neal + Tins for a PG who can direct and shoot and adequate help for Murphy inside if we want to go that route.

  20. #20

    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    As the Pacers were, a trip to the Eastern Conference finals was an absolute ceiling. To me, that's not good enough. Been there, done that.

    The Warriors may -- one day -- have a similar ceiling in the West. For Golden State, that's probably a good thing.

    But the closer our franchise gets to starting to build for an NBA Finals run, all the better in my mind. If it involves tearing down a slightly above average team (Artest, Tinsley, O'Neal, Jackson, Harrington, Foster, et al), that's a price that -- at some point -- has to be paid.

    That said, mistakes (read: Troy Murphy) can be made in the destruction process.

  21. #21
    The Future Is Bright JB's Breakout Year's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Nice post, McKey Fan.

    I don't see our situation as gloom and doomish as a lot of Pacers Nation, either. That is, as long as all of the changes you mention are coming this summer.

    By the start of training camp, I just want to see more pieces in place. We don't have to be a finished product. I want to see a new direction coaching-wise, a young point guard we can count on, something promising at shooting guard. I like Granger, Williams, Diogu, and Dunleavey, Jr. as pieces already in place.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    After a coaching change, I see no other major moves for the Pacers. I expect to see some more "Orien Greene" type moves. The Pacers are going to be hard pressed to find another point guard who can give them 13 and 7 for $6 mil or less. I see them entering the season with too much confidence in Daniels kness, JO's knees and Armstrong's age/health. On the other hand , they suprised me last year with all the roster moves and at mid-season with the huge turnover. At a certain point, you can over-tinker. If they keep doing these tit for tat changes nothing is accomplished.

    I'd be happy with nearly the same team and a new coaching staff.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraft View Post
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    But the closer our franchise gets to starting to build for an NBA Finals run, all the better in my mind. If it involves tearing down a slightly above average team (Artest, Tinsley, O'Neal, Jackson, Harrington, Foster, et al), that's a price that -- at some point -- has to be paid.
    I'm all for rebuilding, actually wanted that process started last summer, but calling the 60+ season team "slightly above average" ... I don't think so.

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    Default Re: I'm a happy, encouraged Pacer fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac View Post
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    Tell me who is going to trade for Tinsley?
    Considering that the best free agent point guards available right now is Chauncey Billups & Mo Williams, Chucky Atkins and Smush Parker.

    There are a number of teams, including the Pistons,Bucks, Grizlies, Spurs, Wizards and Lakers that will be looking for an NBA starting point guard. Tinsley, say what you want, had a decent and realatively injury free year. He's locked up until 2010-11 and by that time will be considered a bargain at the point guard slot. No this is not just me rattling off teams with obvious point guard problems, but you asked and I told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    Thank you. We shouldn't trade Jamaal until we see him play in a new system with a new coach first. It's not like we're going to get much in return for him anyway so why not give it a shot. Of course, he needs to seriously work on that jumper. If we do keep Jamaal, I want Mark Jackson here at least as an assistant.

    Tinsleys only problemm is that he reverts to playground basketball too much. Everybody on the PAcers staff knows what Jamal brings to the table, heck everyone in the NBA knows. The book on Tinsley states that he can be shook to the point that he engages in playground ball while the other point guard just baits him into mistakes and bad shots. He hasn't yet learned to stay within the system and to just run the team. He's been with the PAcers too long for just a coaching change to rectify that problem. Sooner or later the player has to have the light switch go on, with Tinsley his lightswitch is on dimmer.

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