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Thread: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

  1. #26
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Don't forget about the veteran team that needed little coaching and the starting point guard that was often considered a coach on the floor. Don't kid yourself on Larry Bird as a coach, all he had to do was just roll out the balls!
    Gnome, I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. But I think coaching is always very important, no matter what type of team you have, young old, veteran, 6 time defending NBA championship - whatever. The Pacers during Bird's three seasons were very well coached. Their system was rock solid, they played together, they played team defense as well as anyone.

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Guess what, there are other average ability (less than Jack and Al) players who come from good programs and/or are good character guys that aren't locked up in an overpriced contract for years to come.
    Maybe make a SMART deal Larry and you wouldn't be in this spot. The problem is that when Bird played the team had a great GM to combine the right talent. He acts like he was the GM back then or something.


    Larry knows what he doesn't like. The problem is he has no clue how to fix it, at least no more than McHale and Ainge have shown (or Zeke for that matter).
    Sure there are other smart players with lesser contracts. But were they available? It takes two WILLING teams to make a trade. This was probably the best available trade and they HAD to get Jackson out of town.
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Sure there are other smart players with lesser contracts. But were they available? It takes two WILLING teams to make a trade. This was probably the best available trade and they HAD to get Jackson out of town.
    And if Ike develops into the player some of us think he can, and Mike keeps improving it will STILL go down as a good trade for us.

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Gnome, I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. But I think coaching is always very important, no matter what type of team you have, young old, veteran, 6 time defending NBA championship - whatever. The Pacers during Bird's three seasons were very well coached. Their system was rock solid, they played together, they played team defense as well as anyone.
    Sorry but I have to agree with Gnome. Some teams you have to coach - others you just have to manage.
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    He's talking about the PLAYERS.
    Unrelated.
    The coach has everything to do with that. It's absurd to think otherwise. Read again what Larry says, and you can virtually hear his thoughts: "It could'nt happen to me".

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    And if Ike develops into the player some of us think he can, and Mike keeps improving it will STILL go down as a good trade for us.
    I'm in this camp aswell with regards to the trade.

    I still think we need to be patient if we really want our team to be succesfull. Elite teams add elements or fill gaps to make them even better. Relatively small things that make the diference in the end. That's not going to work for us. We have major gaps and miss several elements. You don't fill those up quickly (and expensively I might add) by signing FA's.


    We need to develop players. Simple as that. That requires:

    1) patience, because that will take quite some time and irritate the living daylights out of us fans if we only watch the team game-by-game in which younger players are a lot of times inconsistant.

    2) more young talent to develop. We have some good pieces, but we need more and we need to add a few veterans willing to give the good example, to lead and to teach some of their "lessons learned".

    It would be ideal if we could keep some players around longer here then has been the case the last few years. We all basically know why it went as it went. I would love to keep Foster and Granger (and in the long run Dun Dun too) around to develop as the stabile pieces of the new team and the franchise and knows and understand how they work and function.

    That role could also be filled by someone else new to the franchise as long as they are either looked up towards/respected (by both management and other players) or are "leaders" that others are willing to work their ***-off for on the court. Doesn't have to be a superstar either.

    I do NOT want Tinsley to show the younger players and players new to this franchise how it works and how you function here.

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Sorry but I have to agree with Gnome. Some teams you have to coach - others you just have to manage.
    Sorry, but I have to agree with UB.

    Coaches decide on playing time, massage egos, and have to lay out a plan or vision on what they expect. Now having a veteran team absolutely can make your job easier, but the bottom line is the buck always stops with the coach.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    Sorry, but I have to agree with UB.

    Coaches decide on playing time, massage egos, and have to lay out a plan or vision on what they expect. Now having a veteran team absolutely can make your job easier, but the bottom line is the buck always stops with the coach.
    Same here. The job seems pretty rough nowadays with the common attitude of players that's getting more and more "me, me" and some more "me".
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Sure there are other smart players with lesser contracts. But were they available? It takes two WILLING teams to make a trade. This was probably the best available trade and they HAD to get Jackson out of town.
    They didn't even work on trades till the deadline, so they in no way made an effort to give it all the time possible. That says it all about that effort. GS was happy to do it and that was enough for TPHB. Yay, we solve our problems and I get my shooters plus a prospect we were interested in, that's all I need to know.

    Next time look around a bit, give it till the deadline for teams to squirm rather than being the squirming team yourself.


    As for "if Ike and Mike". Mike isn't new anymore. 4 years in and this is his game. He might recapture his 3pt shot from 2 years ago, but basically 28% the last 2 seasons is troubling considering the lack of serious injury to cause that problem.

    Ike ain't growing, end of story. I see exactly one thing he can improve - how he handles double teams.

    Did everyone forget that Nellie, the "great" coach who is so much better than Rick because he is winning with Jack while Rick only...err...won with Jack decided to give up on Ike (check the PT) and couldn't wait to ship out Dun and Troy.

    Again, it's not just me with the lowered opinion of these players. I can see where Ike is stuck. I like his game enough, but he's got holes in it that aren't going away it would appear (due in large part to his height).

    I can see a better overall effort with them on the team once they have summer to figure it all out...but then if you bring in a new coach he has to start from scratch as will guys like Foster, JO and Granger who will be learning a new system.

    Regardless I think it's very naive to expect a drastic change in the games of any players other than Danny (dribble, awareness, both very improvable in year 3) and Shawne.


    I'm with Gnome on Bird. That team was ready to NOT BE COACHED, they were sick of Brown treating them like children and they said so. They got a general attack plan, that's not the same as ego massaging, teaching and discipline issues. Does anyone really think a team with Reggie, Jax, Mullin, Dale, Smits and McKey at that point had maturity issues? List the current Pacers with that level of maturity and focus, and with the game to get locker room respect to go with it.

    Army.......thinking, thinking.......Foster on the fringe perhaps.

    You put ANY of those players at that age (circa 98) on this team and they instantly become the vet leader, even if it isn't vocal. And that team had 6 of them. Add Perkins in there too.

  10. #35
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Ike didn't fit into Nellie's system at all. That was his main problem as far as I know.

    It's obvious Ike has some problems in his game (handling the double team beying one, team defence beying another), but he's still young and relatively new to the league, came to this team in the middle of the season, etc.

    Bottomline, I am not ready at all to declare a "what you see is what you get" with Ike yet. Not even close.

    David, however... now THAT is an entirely different story... IMO .

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    As for "if Ike and Mike". Mike isn't new anymore. 4 years in and this is his game. He might recapture his 3pt shot from 2 years ago, but basically 28% the last 2 seasons is troubling considering the lack of serious injury to cause that problem.
    Shoot, here I thought with a good attitude and renewed spirit Mike Dun had a legit chance to improve. You dashed my hopes Seth.

    Sorry friend but I call BS on this. If a player works on his game then he'll improve. We must be looking at a different player because I fully expect Dunleavy to come back better. Now if were talking Murphy then I might buy into what you're selling.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    They didn't even work on trades till the deadline, so they in no way made an effort to give it all the time possible.

    You know that for a fact do you? How?
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    I for one, see managing a team and coaching a team, as the same thing just dressed up differently.

    In baseball the "coach" is known as the manager.

    There's more to coaching than X's and O's or instructional coaching. To be a good coach, you have to be able to manage egos, playing time, etc.

    Bird was an excellent coach, because he played to his team's strengths and was able to manage the team and keep them focused.

    Either way coaching is managing and managing is part of coaching.

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    List the current Pacers with that level of maturity and focus, and with the game to get locker room respect to go with it.

    Army.......thinking, thinking.......Foster on the fringe perhaps.
    There are none, but not because of a lack of experience.

    JO 10 years in the league.

    Al Harrington 8 years

    SJax 6 years

    Tinsley 5 years.

    In other words those guys have been around long enough you shouldn't have to baby sit them. Coach still had to.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    Sorry, but I have to agree with UB.

    Coaches decide on playing time, massage egos, and have to lay out a plan or vision on what they expect. Now having a veteran team absolutely can make your job easier, but the bottom line is the buck always stops with the coach.
    And that's exactly what Rick can't do.

    He's great at the gameplan and strategy.

    That's why I keep saying Rick will make a great #1 assistant some day.

    Same think happened to Dick Harter every time he became a head coach - everyone knew he'd make a great #1 assistant again some day.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I'm with Gnome on Bird. That team was ready to NOT BE COACHED, they were sick of Brown treating them like children and they said so. They got a general attack plan, that's not the same as ego massaging, teaching and discipline issues. Does anyone really think a team with Reggie, Jax, Mullin, Dale, Smits and McKey at that point had maturity issues?
    When Fred Hoiberg of all players came out and said, "Its time [for Larry Brown to go]" at the end of The Season We Do Not Discuss, that's when I knew how bad it was. Fred Hoiberg.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  17. #42
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    I think "massaging" this group of players we had since Artest would have been pretty much impossible for basically every coach.

    Though, you are absolutely correct that this is one of Rick's weakest points.
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Terrible numbers by Dunleavy since he became a Pacer.

    ................G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
    06-07 IND 43 43 35.6 .454 .283 .792 1.0 4.7 5.7 2.6 1.1 0.2 1.81 2.80 14.0
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I think "massaging" this group of players we had since Artest would have been pretty much impossible for basically every coach.

    Though, you are absolutely correct that this is one of Rick's weakest points.
    It might have been possible if the remaining players were never exposed to the Artest virus that causes the Artest cancer in the first place. Maybe Pat Riley could've gotten something from them, and maybe he couldn't have.

    But after that tumor spread to the other organs, it wasn't enough to just remove the Artest tumor from the body - vital organs needed to be replaced as well.

    I think that the public still massively understates just how disasterous it was to let Artest stay around as long as he did.

    I'm certainly not a big fan of Rick but there are two people that need to be fired before he is fired: Larry and Donnie. Preferably, all three are shown the door at the same time.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #45
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I for one, see managing a team and coaching a team, as the same thing just dressed up differently.

    In baseball the "coach" is known as the manager.

    There's more to coaching than X's and O's or instructional coaching. To be a good coach, you have to be able to manage egos, playing time, etc.

    Bird was an excellent coach, because he played to his team's strengths and was able to manage the team and keep them focused.

    Either way coaching is managing and managing is part of coaching.
    For the head coach, yes.

    For an assistant, not so much.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    It might have been possible if the remaining players were never exposed to the Artest virus that causes the Artest cancer in the first place. Maybe Pat Riley could've gotten something from them, and maybe he couldn't have.

    But after that tumor spread to the other organs, it wasn't enough to just remove the Artest tumor from the body - vital organs needed to be replaced as well.

    I think that the public still massively understates just how disasterous it was to let Artest stay around as long as he did.

    I'm certainly not a big fan of Rick but there are two people that need to be fired before he is fired: Larry and Donnie. Preferably, all three are shown the door at the same time.
    Can't leave out Jonathan Bender while we're at it. Not his fault, but made some very good money for nothing and players (notably Artest) did notice.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  22. #47

    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    And if Ike develops into the player some of us think he can, and Mike keeps improving it will STILL go down as a good trade for us.
    lol @ if Mike keeps improving........I must not be watching the same game.......At this rate, he'll be really good in 2099.....

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Pacers' failure puts Bird in a Funk

    When I made my statment earlier about Bird, I didn't mean to totally discount everything he did as coach. I wanted to say is, hiring Bird is not some "magic bullet" that is going to get this team going in the right direction. Bird did some good things for a team that needed a new approach from coaching and the stars all lined up for Larry. I credit the veteran team, the future hall of fame point guard/coach on the floor, Rick Carlisle, Dick Harter, and Larry Bird as one unit that came together to acheive. I don't see it as Larry Bird mastermining these elements together to get the net results. That is the feeling that I get from some of you that are waiting for Bird to take the reins again.

    IMHO, If Bird were to coach this team I'm guessing the results are not as good as some of you would want. You can't discount how much that veteran team & great assistants aided in the success of coach Larry Bird.

    As far as the comment about "rolling out the balls"...yeah, it was a bit overstated, but so is giving Larry Bird all the credit for the success of those teams he coached.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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