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Thread: Connecting the Dots...

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    Default Connecting the Dots...

    Donnie says he wants to build around a center...

    The Lakers are rumored to want JO...

    They only have 4 tradeable assets (Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Walton)...

    One of those 4 is a center...

    I'm not exactly hoping for this, but maybe Bynum will be a Pacer next year.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    If Jermaine is traded, I think we're more likely to see something like JO to the Wiz for Jamison and a 1st rounder. Before everybody's jumps on me, try to be realistic about what one of your favorite players is really worth. I'm not saying we're likely to get Antawn, just that kind of situation. A good player in the final year of his contract and a pick.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    How 'bout we toss out the idea of building around a center? We can build our defense around a center I guess... but unless you have a Shaq circa 1999 coming in then then I say we get a new vision of what the 2007-2008 (and beyond) Pacers should look like.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    How 'bout we toss out the idea of building around a center? We can build our defense around a center I guess... but unless you have a Shaq circa 1999 coming in then then I say we get a new vision of what the 2007-2008 (and beyond) Pacers should look like.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    If Jermaine is traded, I think we're more likely to see something like JO to the Wiz for Jamison and a 1st rounder. Before everybody's jumps on me, try to be realistic about what one of your favorite players is really worth. I'm not saying we're likely to get Antawn, just that kind of situation. A good player in the final year of his contract and a pick.
    I would actually take that trade. JO is walking after next year anyways..and we sure as hell aren't going far in the playoffs. We have Ike who isn't as good as JO is, but he can take over out post scoring with some hard work in the off season.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    I would actually take that trade. JO is walking after next year anyways..and we sure as hell aren't going far in the playoffs. We have Ike who isn't as good as JO is, but he can take over out post scoring with some hard work in the off season.
    He's not walking out of that contract ever. He's no dummy. He'd never come close to those dollars from the handful of (bad) teams who could give him comparable money. He's going to be on the downside of his prime by that time, too, and he is no longer staying healthy for full seasons.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Donnie says he wants to build around a center...

    The Lakers are rumored to want JO...

    They only have 4 tradeable assets (Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Walton)...

    One of those 4 is a center...

    I'm not exactly hoping for this, but maybe Bynum will be a Pacer next year.
    I've been away from the world of the Pacers since the site went down...

    can somone provide the link/quote where Donnie said he wants to build around a center?

    Thanks
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    If Jermaine is traded, I think we're more likely to see something like JO to the Wiz for Jamison and a 1st rounder. Before everybody's jumps on me, try to be realistic about what one of your favorite players is really worth. I'm not saying we're likely to get Antawn, just that kind of situation. A good player in the final year of his contract and a pick.
    I would personally hate this trade because I don't like Jamison's game and I think he would be redundant on our roster. He is essentially a combination of Ike and Danny, and Shawne also does many of the things that he does.

    I wouldn't mind trading for a good, high-payed player and a first, but I'd like one who's a better fit for us than Jamison.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    My post isn't about Jamison it's about a player in that kind of situation. His contract expires after next season, he'd be able to step right in and give you the same kind of point production, most fans know his name and think he's a good player, after one year you let him walk, frees up cap space after next season ( to the tune of roughly 20 million since JO's contract is gone) allowing the Pacers to become a free agent player and go after someone who fits the team a little better. It would also give the Pacers a pick in this years draft.




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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    My post isn't about Jamison it's about a player in that kind of situation. His contract expires after next season, he'd be able to step right in and give you the same kind of point production, most fans know his name and think he's a good player, after one year you let him walk, frees up cap space after next season ( to the tune of roughly 20 million since JO's contract is gone) allowing the Pacers to become a free agent player and go after someone who fits the team a little better. It would also give the Pacers a pick in this years draft.
    I generally like this type of strategy. Sadly, I perused the salaries at Hoopshype and there is almost no other highly paid players coming off the books after next season. Even with taking Jamison, they'd probably have to take on another 5 million to make the trade work.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Any trade for Jermaine for a player in last year of deal as suggested means the Pacers taking back 15-16 mil in salary capwise.

    Players making 11-16 mil in final years of deals:
    Boston- Theo Ratliff 12mil and back surgery prob done

    Jamison has opt out after this season. Brand and Marion opt outs after next year. So very limited scenerio .

    Trading Jermaine (something I'm against) will not necassarily solve the cap problems.

    Troy Murphy -Mike Dunleavy -Marquis Daniels and Jamaal Tinsley account for 30 mil next season- 32 mil in 2008-09, 35 mil in 2009-10 and 31.9 in 2010-11 with Daniels gone. Jeff Foster is due 5.7 and 6.2 the next 2 season in addition.

    Despite what most say this group with a different coach , adding a couple shooters one with the 5+ mil trade exemption may not be a bad team. Personally I'd rather keep JO and adjust to a new coaches offense, without JO this defense is terrible no shot blockers.

    Jamaal Tinsley must be moved if it takes adding Jeff Foster to the deal so be it.Or is Tinsley an acceptable point guard with a different coach and style of play? How much of this season was based on a team quitting on a coach or dislike for his style of play? Bringing in 4 new players ,2 starting a lot in midseason and expecting the team to click was asking too much.

    There are at least 3 or 4 players on the bench that could be replaced by players who better fit the Pacer needs. Deal Harrison fora 2nd rounder, Baston ,Greene,McLeod and Marshall for the most part are free agents . Add a couple solid vet bench players with exemption.

    I'll be in the minority I know but if last nights woeful performance on defense was what we can expect without Jermaine to protect the basket , it will be a long time before this team is good. Expecially if all we get for JO is an expiring contract and a pick in the low teens.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    I listened to the Chad Ford interview and I didn't hear Donnie say that he wants to build around a center. He said that when you build around a player it should be a center.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    If Jermaine is traded, I think we're more likely to see something like JO to the Wiz for Jamison and a 1st rounder. Before everybody's jumps on me, try to be realistic about what one of your favorite players is really worth. I'm not saying we're likely to get Antawn, just that kind of situation. A good player in the final year of his contract and a pick.
    All one had to do to judge Jermaines worth is witness the last week of the season.
    Try to be realistic about what he's really worth.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    Any trade for Jermaine for a player in last year of deal as suggested means the Pacers taking back 15-16 mil in salary capwise.

    Players making 11-16 mil in final years of deals:
    Boston- Theo Ratliff 12mil and back surgery prob done

    Jamison has opt out after this season. Brand and Marion opt outs after next year. So very limited scenerio .

    Trading Jermaine (something I'm against) will not necassarily solve the cap problems.

    Troy Murphy -Mike Dunleavy -Marquis Daniels and Jamaal Tinsley account for 30 mil next season- 32 mil in 2008-09, 35 mil in 2009-10 and 31.9 in 2010-11 with Daniels gone. Jeff Foster is due 5.7 and 6.2 the next 2 season in addition.

    Despite what most say this group with a different coach , adding a couple shooters one with the 5+ mil trade exemption may not be a bad team. Personally I'd rather keep JO and adjust to a new coaches offense, without JO this defense is terrible no shot blockers.

    Jamaal Tinsley must be moved if it takes adding Jeff Foster to the deal so be it.Or is Tinsley an acceptable point guard with a different coach and style of play? How much of this season was based on a team quitting on a coach or dislike for his style of play? Bringing in 4 new players ,2 starting a lot in midseason and expecting the team to click was asking too much.

    There are at least 3 or 4 players on the bench that could be replaced by players who better fit the Pacer needs. Deal Harrison fora 2nd rounder, Baston ,Greene,McLeod and Marshall for the most part are free agents . Add a couple solid vet bench players with exemption.

    I'll be in the minority I know but if last nights woeful performance on defense was what we can expect without Jermaine to protect the basket , it will be a long time before this team is good. Expecially if all we get for JO is an expiring contract and a pick in the low teens.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    Any trade for Jermaine for a player in last year of deal as suggested means the Pacers taking back 15-16 mil in salary capwise.

    Players making 11-16 mil in final years of deals:
    Boston- Theo Ratliff 12mil and back surgery prob done

    Jamison has opt out after this season. Brand and Marion opt outs after next year. So very limited scenerio .

    Trading Jermaine (something I'm against) will not necassarily solve the cap problems.

    Troy Murphy -Mike Dunleavy -Marquis Daniels and Jamaal Tinsley account for 30 mil next season- 32 mil in 2008-09, 35 mil in 2009-10 and 31.9 in 2010-11 with Daniels gone. Jeff Foster is due 5.7 and 6.2 the next 2 season in addition.

    Despite what most say this group with a different coach , adding a couple shooters one with the 5+ mil trade exemption may not be a bad team. Personally I'd rather keep JO and adjust to a new coaches offense, without JO this defense is terrible no shot blockers.

    Jamaal Tinsley must be moved if it takes adding Jeff Foster to the deal so be it.Or is Tinsley an acceptable point guard with a different coach and style of play? How much of this season was based on a team quitting on a coach or dislike for his style of play? Bringing in 4 new players ,2 starting a lot in midseason and expecting the team to click was asking too much.

    There are at least 3 or 4 players on the bench that could be replaced by players who better fit the Pacer needs. Deal Harrison fora 2nd rounder, Baston ,Greene,McLeod and Marshall for the most part are free agents . Add a couple solid vet bench players with exemption.

    I'll be in the minority I know but if last nights woeful performance on defense was what we can expect without Jermaine to protect the basket , it will be a long time before this team is good. Expecially if all we get for JO is an expiring contract and a pick in the low teens.
    Exactly right! WHile Jermaine has the most worth by far, getting anything of equal value is awfully problematic. More likely past their prime players with big contracts. Factor in what we saw in atlanta (that was ugly) and its pretty unlikely IMO that we trade Jermaine. IF we could get a deal for a REAL prime guard (not past his prime) or two up and coming guards, etc then MAYBE.
    Short of that, you keep HIM and trade something big of value for a guard of value. Unfortunately the only other thing we have of value is Danny Granger. Package him with Harrison or Jeff or Troy. I DON"T want to move him, but we've got to give up something of value to get something of value. That still leaves us Shawne and Ike and Jeff to match up front with jermaine. If that added us a very good guard we COULD be much improved if Quis comes back healthy.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    ....if last nights woeful performance on defense was what we can expect without Jermaine to protect the basket , it will be a long time before this team is good.
    I did not get to watch the entire game, so I am somewhat making a guess about this. How much of the team's performance could be attributed to guys realizing their season is done, being totally disappointed and mentally drained, and just not having their hearts in it?

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Okay...this took awhile...but I compiled a list of Players for Western Conference teams that have expiring contracts within the next two seasons. I'm not sure how the Player or Team options work...but I included the players below that does not have any salary beyond the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons.

    Western Conference team with Players with Expiring Contracts or Player/Team options earning at least $3 mil a year in the 2007-2008 season

    Kwame Brown C/PF - $9.07 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - LA Lakers
    Kurt Thomas C/PF - $8.09 mil ( player Option during the 2007-2008 season ) - Phoenix
    Ricky Davis SG - $6.81 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - Minnesota
    Brent Barry SG - $5.55 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - San Antonio
    Eduardo Najera PF/SF -$4.95 mil ( Player Option during 2007-2008 season ) - Denver
    Bruce Bowen SG - $4.12 mil ( Team Option during the 2007-2008 season ) - San Antonio
    Gordon Giricek SG - $4.00 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - Utah
    Sarunas Jasekevocius PG - $4.00 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - GSW
    Bob Sura SG - $3.84 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - Houston
    Robert Horry PF - $3.63 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - San Antonio
    Micheal Finley SG - $3.10 mil ( Player Option during 2007-2008 season ) - San Antonio
    Francisco Elson C - $3.00 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - San Antonio

    Western Conference team with Players with Expiring Contracts or Player/Team options earning at least $3 mil per season until the 2008-2009 season

    Kevin Garnett PF - $22.00 mil ( player option during 2007-2008 season ), $24 mil ( expires after 2008-2009 season ) - Minnesota
    Allen Iverson PG/SG - $20.10 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $21.937 mil ( expires after 2008-2009 season ) - Denver
    Shawn Marion SF - $16.44 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $17.180 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - Phoenix
    Baron Davis PG - $16.44 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $17.18 mil ( expires after 2008-2009 season ) - GSW
    Elton Brand PF - $15.34 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $16.44 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - LA CLippers
    Lamar Odom PF/SF - $13.52 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $14.559 mil ( expires after the 2008-2009 season ) - LA Lakers
    Mike Bibby PG - $13.50 mil ( Early Termination clause for 2007-2008 season ), $14.5 mil ( expires after 2007-2008 season ) - Sacramento
    Raef LaFrentz C - $11.81 mil ( player option during 2007-2008 season ), $12.72 mil ( expires after 2008-2009 season ) - Portland
    Rashard Lewis SF - $10.12 mil ( player option during 2007-2008 season ), $10.909 mil ( expires after 2008-2009 season ) - Seattle
    Corey Maggette SG - $7.84 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $8.4 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - LA CLippers
    Ron Artest SF - $7.80 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $8.45 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - Sacramento
    Juwan Howard PF - $6.88 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $7.375 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - Houston
    Chris Wilcox PF - $6.50 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $6.75 mil ( expires after the 2008-2009 season ) - Seattle
    Stromile Swift PF/C - $5.80 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $6.2 mil ( Player Option during 2008-2009 season ) - Memphis
    Bobby Jackson PG - $5.67 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $6.09 mil ( expires after the 2008-2009 season ) - Memphis
    Damon Stoudamire PG - $4.35 mil ( 2007-2008 season ), $4.65 mil ( expires after the 2008-2009 season ) - Memphis

    The above list only includes players that earn above 3 mil a year. I figure that there is no point to include one that is less then 3 mil a year since it won't make much of a difference and won't be much of a player worth acquiring. As you can tell, the list includes Artest....but note that this is just a list of players with Expiring contracts within the next two seasons.....I'm not suggesting that we acquire them in any trade involving JONeal.

    I am working on a list for Eastern Conference players....but figure this is a good place to start to figure out what teams that we will likely deal with to get an Expiring Cotnract player.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    I havn't read most of the post above this one but I'll post my thought anyway.

    If the Celtics land Oden then Jefferson might be available. Maybe O'Neal & Tinsley for Jefferson, one of their bad contracts, a young guy or two & maybe a pick?

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    I havn't read most of the post above this one but I'll post my thought anyway.

    If the Celtics land Oden then Jefferson might be available. Maybe O'Neal & Tinsley for Jefferson, one of their bad contracts, a young guy or two & maybe a pick?
    We can only hope, but I don't think there's any way Jefferson is leaving Boston. If you subtract the first month of the season where he was injured, his numbers have been almost as good as JO's. Unless Ainge just wants to bring in a vet to appease Paul Pierce and save his job, he'd have to be stupid to trade Jefferson.

    Trading JO for Jefferson right now would be very much like trading Dale Davis for JO. In a couple of years, it will look quite lopsided.

    If we could wind up with Jefferson and a pick and a PG (They have three, I'll take any of them, though Telfair would be my 3rd choice)... man that would be great. Of course the condition may be that we take on Wally Sczerbiak, now that would be a scary proposition.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    I havn't read most of the post above this one but I'll post my thought anyway.

    If the Celtics land Oden then Jefferson might be available. Maybe O'Neal & Tinsley for Jefferson, one of their bad contracts, a young guy or two & maybe a pick?
    If the Celtics land the number 1 pick I am of the opinion that they will take Durant and then move Pierce.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    All one had to do to judge Jermaines worth is witness the last week of the season.
    Try to be realistic about what he's really worth.
    Jermaine O'Neal's worth to this team is irrelevant to his worth for another team. There's no reason to take it personally and get sarcastic about it. The reality of the situation is......Who's the best upcoming PF/C that plays a simliar style to JO? Bosh? Would you trade Murphy ( a big contract), Granger & Williams ( a couple of young guys with upside) and a draft pick for Bosh? Is that what you think JO's worth a big contract, a couple of young guys who are still in rookie contract land and a pick.....never gonna happen.

    Look at some of the big name players and what they've commanded.

    AI got Andre Miller a 30+ year old point guard, Joe Smith a 31+ year old underachiever and two 1st round picks.

    Shaq got Odom, Grant, Butler and a single 1st rounder.

    Grant Hill got Ben Wallace( well before he was a household name) and Chucky Atkins

    JO isn't on that level.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    Or is Tinsley an acceptable point guard with a different coach and style of play?
    I was trying to find something regarding the players not wanting Rick as a head coach the first time around when I happened upon this article. Maybe relevant to Jamaal's situation, maybe not.........

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...24/ai_63940536

    More often than not, when you talk to a general manager about a player, he'll tell you what that guy can do. Talk to a coach, and heal tell you what that player cannot do. It is a critical distinction. A coach's personal insecurities, biases and idiosyncrasies come across with each player evaluation, and a player ultimately is only as good as his coach thinks he is.

    Two classic examples reside on the Pacers' roster.

    Mark Jackson was a rookie of the year and All-Star in New York, partly because Rick Pitino built him up as such and showed him how he could overcome his speed deficiency. Stu Jackson and John MacLeod followed Pitino, and Mark Jackson suddenly went in the tank when these coaches decided Rod Strickland and Mo Cheeks could do Jackson's job better.

    The Knicks fell apart in those two seasons. Then Pat Riley showed up and made Jackson a formidable weapon again, Larry Brown gave him even more responsibility with the Clippers and Indiana, and now Jackson deserves Hall of Fame consideration.

    A coach's faith did all that.

    Another example is Jalen Rose. When he came from Denver, Brown buried him and looked only at the mistakes he made with the ball. Bird arrived and saw a multi-dimensional player who could excel at three positions, and now Rose is one signature away from collecting $86 million over the next seven years.

    Moral of the story? A coach's attitude toward a player means everything, and coaches are often too emotional with regard to players. Their negativity rubs off, and the relationship is permanently damaged.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    If the Celtics land the number 1 pick I am of the opinion that they will take Durant and then move Pierce.
    I think Ainge is one of the few GMs that would take Durant #1 as well! Though Oden would be deemed the next Bill Russell if the Celtics took him, I'm pretty sure the Celtics would take Durant and make whichever team at #2 very happy.

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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Al Jefferson's best month (March, 15 games):

    19.7 pts, 11.2 rpg, 1.6 asts, 1.3 blks, 1.1 stls, 124-225 FGA, 55% shooting.

    JO's best month (January, I know this is arguable. I chose it because he played the entire month and played a similar number of games to Jefferson in March, 13 games):

    20.1 pts, 10.3 reb, 2.4 ast, 2.8 blks, 0.7 stls, 95-224 FGA, 42% FG

    JO is a much better free throw shooter and gets to the line more often. JO is 28, Al Jefferson is 21.
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    Default Re: Connecting the Dots...

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    I was trying to find something regarding the players not wanting Rick as a head coach the first time around when I happened upon this article. Maybe relevant to Jamaal's situation, maybe not.........

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...24/ai_63940536

    More often than not, when you talk to a general manager about a player, he'll tell you what that guy can do. Talk to a coach, and heal tell you what that player cannot do. It is a critical distinction. A coach's personal insecurities, biases and idiosyncrasies come across with each player evaluation, and a player ultimately is only as good as his coach thinks he is.

    Two classic examples reside on the Pacers' roster.

    Mark Jackson was a rookie of the year and All-Star in New York, partly because Rick Pitino built him up as such and showed him how he could overcome his speed deficiency. Stu Jackson and John MacLeod followed Pitino, and Mark Jackson suddenly went in the tank when these coaches decided Rod Strickland and Mo Cheeks could do Jackson's job better.

    The Knicks fell apart in those two seasons. Then Pat Riley showed up and made Jackson a formidable weapon again, Larry Brown gave him even more responsibility with the Clippers and Indiana, and now Jackson deserves Hall of Fame consideration.

    A coach's faith did all that.

    Another example is Jalen Rose. When he came from Denver, Brown buried him and looked only at the mistakes he made with the ball. Bird arrived and saw a multi-dimensional player who could excel at three positions, and now Rose is one signature away from collecting $86 million over the next seven years.

    Moral of the story? A coach's attitude toward a player means everything, and coaches are often too emotional with regard to players. Their negativity rubs off, and the relationship is permanently damaged.
    I think Jamaal had Rick's vote of confidence. It's not like he was benched in favor of someone else. When Jamaal is healthy, it's clear he's Rick's PG.

    Now maybe Rick didn't give Jamaal the freedom that he wanted on the court, but he ran the show, and was even the go to guy down the stretch.

    Maybe Jamaal didn't have the competition behind him to push him harder? DA isn't it, McLeod played well, but as soon as Jamaal came back for the Nets game McLeod didn't see the floor.

    A better example of this situation might have been with Sarunas. He had Bird's confidence, but was always a backup to Jamaal... probably rightfully so, but he sometimes was the 3rd backup, and didn't seem to have the confidence of coach Carlisle. There were even times where he came off of good games, and still didn't see much time in the next.

    Now I'm not saying Runi is Jalen or Mark Jackson, but u could see signs of him being a good PG besides defensive issues. And though he's on the bench is GSW as well, he does have a lot of talent ahead of him in Baron and Monta. A lot better then Jamaal and DA/AJ.

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