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Thread: VA Tech Shootings

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default VA Tech Shootings

    Since the boards have been down for a while and I'm sure everyone has heard about this and probably has an opinion on it.

    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/vir...ech.shootings/

    Prayers and condolences are still with all the families who lost someone. One of my friend's room-mates who goes there actually got shot once but it was a minor injury and it was only in the hand.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    I'm sure we all have those families on our minds at this time. But on a scarier note...someone at my school today was caught with having a rifle in the trunk of his car. The police arrested him this morning before anthing was started thankfully. A rumor I heard around school is that there were also pistols and weed in the car.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Anyone read his plays that he wrote for one of his classes? Wow. Juvenile, not well-written, vulgar. Those pieces of work really show his character.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    I just heard on the news that he sent a video to NBC between his first killings that morning and the second killings (it is postmarked with the time and date).

    He sent it "Express Mail" but it was delayed because he used the wrong zip code.

    ...Basically... it's another psycho wanting publicity and to go out in a blaze of glory (in his mind) and our media is giving it to him.

    I remember several years back listening to Paul Harvey on the radio and he had a piece about a former hairstylist for Elvis Presley (stick with me here... I'm making a point).

    Insert Paul Harvey voice----
    He said (paraphrased) "There's a man in Tennessee. A man that claims he was a hairstylist for Elvis Presley before he died. He tells us that Elvis' hair wasn't naturally the jet black mane that we were all used to. Oh no... in fact his hair had grayed and needed colored. This man... this former hairstylist... he tells us this and he also wants us to know his name...

    "Page TWO!"

    And Paul moved on without ever telling us the man's name. There's a lesson there for the media.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

    I was listening to the Michael Savage Show the last couple days and he's the only commentator that will talk about the "A. Ishmael" that was on his arm and was also seen as on the return address of the package that he sent to NBC. What does this mean?

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by tora tora View Post
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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

    I was listening to the Michael Savage Show the last couple days and he's the only commentator that will talk about the "A. Ishmael" that was on his arm and was also seen as on the return address of the package that he sent to NBC. What does this mean?
    Ishmael was a biblical character.

    Ishmael is also a novel about human survival told through the eyes of a gorilla.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    I've been wondering what would cause a person to do something like this - I can sort of see taking out a GF (or girl he was obsessed with) and the RA - and himself. But the rest of it?

    Well, between the plays and tapes, it seems he was just a complete whackjob. You knew he was at least something of a whackjob but I doubt we'll ever find anything that could be perceived as a coherent reason. Pretty much a paranoid type complex. Everyone was out to get him - and they were also out to get a lot of other people and he perceived himself somehow as the defender of the downtrodden.

    I could write pages on this - particularly for the media running around asking why the campus wasn't put on total lockdown after the 1st shooting. But I won't.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    I've been wondering what would cause a person to do something like this - I can sort of see taking out a GF (or girl he was obsessed with) and the RA - and himself. But the rest of it?

    Well, between the plays and tapes, it seems he was just a complete whackjob. You knew he was at least something of a whackjob but I doubt we'll ever find anything that could be perceived as a coherent reason. Pretty much a paranoid type complex. Everyone was out to get him - and they were also out to get a lot of other people and he perceived himself somehow as the defender of the downtrodden.

    I could write pages on this - particularly for the media running around asking why the campus wasn't put on total lockdown after the 1st shooting. But I won't.
    I agree. There really is no excuse to not have the campus shut down after 2 students had been killed. The murderer could still be walking around the campus...I just will never understand it. I realize VA Tech is a huge campus with a ton of students, but a few days of missed classes while they investigate isn't that bad...especially after what happened. But it is what it is. The guy was a nut job and it did happen. We could go back and blame tons of things, but at the end of the day..he was just a psychopath. Anyone who saw the tapes would agree with that.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    I agree. There really is no excuse to not have the campus shut down after 2 students had been killed. The murderer could still be walking around the campus...I just will never understand it. I realize VA Tech is a huge campus with a ton of students, but a few days of missed classes while they investigate isn't that bad...especially after what happened. But it is what it is. The guy was a nut job and it did happen. We could go back and blame tons of things, but at the end of the day..he was just a psychopath. Anyone who saw the tapes would agree with that.
    No way you could shut down the entire campus at that moment. The police were caught off guard (as was everyone). How do you notify 15,000+ students? Email? Sirens? Personal phone calls? Radio adverts? Television commercials?

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    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    The other thing I heard was at first, they weren't sure if one of the two dead weren't the killer themselves. They just didn't know. It all happened too quick.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder View Post
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    Ishmael was a biblical character.

    Ishmael is also a novel about human survival told through the eyes of a gorilla.
    Ishmael was also the story teller/character in Moby Dick. The only survivor after the whale destroyed the ship too.

    EDIT: Also, as a current college student there is no way you can shut down campus for two murders. I never check my email before I go to class normally, and only do if I have emailed a prof the night before. How many students actually listen to the radio before the go too?

    Most of the time, when it's early classes like that, you roll out of bed and within 10mins your out the door. (I know it's not the same for girls for the time) You just dont get up early and sit down and watch TV in the mornings either.

    Outside of mass texting or a speaker system that can reach over a mile away, there's no way you're going to be able to inform people.

    We recieved a letter from BSU's president (which I can post if anyone would actually like me too) and they are actually looking into the mass texting, and the project has been sped up since this taking place.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    I agree. There really is no excuse to not have the campus shut down after 2 students had been killed. The murderer could still be walking around the campus...I just will never understand it. I realize VA Tech is a huge campus with a ton of students, but a few days of missed classes while they investigate isn't that bad...especially after what happened. But it is what it is. The guy was a nut job and it did happen. We could go back and blame tons of things, but at the end of the day..he was just a psychopath. Anyone who saw the tapes would agree with that.
    Are you serious?

    Do you shut down an entire city of 35,000 when someone murders their girlfriend?

    It's impossible - and for something like this, unnecessary. Obviously, we have hindsight to tell us this guy is a mass murderer but folks get murdered at college campuses all the time - you can't shut it down every time that happens. Usually, like the case at Purdue a couple of years ago, it's domestic in nature.

    About the best you can do is notify as many people as you can. VT could maybe be knocked for taking 2 hours to get a message out (though that doesn't seem way out of line by the time you get TPTB together to put together a statement) but in the long run that probably didn't make any difference.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    I wish there were some simple way to alter the data shown in this graph:




    I grew up in rural southern Indiana, with shotguns and rifles, hunting deer, quail, rabbits, etc so I am not by nature a gun control freak. But I do wonder how much better our society might be with handguns absent.

    I can't help but wonder that if this psycho nutjob were going to college in England, France, Germany, Japan, etc. the realization of his twisted fantasy might have been to get a knife and stab one or two people before he would be stopped by people fighting back.

    Here in the good ol' USA he can arm himself to the teeth and kill by the dozens.

    Of course he could have accomplished a lot with a rifle too. But it is very hard to secretly carry or even secretly own the types of weapons that are legitimately used by hunters. You only hunt people with handguns.

    I'd like to get rid of handguns. How to do that is a tough question.

    I'd settle for making the best possible effort to keep all firearms from being owned by persons not trained in how to use them and not posesssing an absolutely spotless criminal record with no history of mental illness.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    What I meant by what I said is that more should have been done. What I said was extremely unrealistic regarding evactuating the campus.

    At least send a bunch of cops to sit around at certain points in the campus. This guy had time to cap 30 people and walk around in the hallway shooting at random with no resistance for quite some time. The last time someone died at Georgia State, there were cops all over the place for the rest of the day.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Of course he could have accomplished a lot with a rifle too. But it is very hard to secretly carry or even secretly own the types of weapons that are legitimately used by hunters. You only hunt people with handguns.

    I'd like to get rid of handguns. How to do that is a tough question.

    I'd settle for making the best possible effort to keep all firearms from being owned by persons not trained in how to use them and not posesssing an absolutely spotless criminal record with no history of mental illness.
    As a follow-up, Wikipedia has a summary of gun-related homicides by state here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...tates_by_state

    Even more interesting is that when you look at the numbers, New Hampshire has some of the weakest gun control laws in the country - no license required to buy, no state background checks, no limitations on concealed carry, etc - but has the lowest level of gun-related violence.

    In contrast, Maryland has some of the strictest handgun laws.

    I don't have a handgun now but at one time I used to carry large amounts of cash (pre-ATM days) and had a permit in several states.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Is there a possible relation between urban and agricultural states and the average number of gun-related homicides or school shootings? Maybe that is the relation that should be looked at?
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    As a follow-up, Wikipedia has a summary of gun-related homicides by state here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...tates_by_state

    Even more interesting is that when you look at the numbers, New Hampshire has some of the weakest gun control laws in the country - no license required to buy, no state background checks, no limitations on concealed carry, etc - but has the lowest level of gun-related violence.

    In contrast, Maryland has some of the strictest handgun laws.

    I don't have a handgun now but at one time I used to carry large amounts of cash (pre-ATM days) and had a permit in several states.
    That's pretty interesting.

    I don't think getting rid of guns would really do much of anything for us. Criminals would still illegally obtain them and people who used to own guns legally would be defenseless. I do agree with pacertom that perhaps doing away with some of the easily concealed guns would help solve some of the problems...but then again, most criminals would still be able to obtain them illegally I'd imagine.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    That's pretty interesting.

    I don't think getting rid of guns would really do much of anything for us. Criminals would still illegally obtain them and people who used to own guns legally would be defenseless. I do agree with pacertom that perhaps doing away with some of the easily concealed guns would help solve some of the problems...but then again, most criminals would still be able to obtain them illegally I'd imagine.
    Most criminals that have illegal guns, steal them from their legal owners...
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron View Post
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    The other thing I heard was at first, they weren't sure if one of the two dead weren't the killer themselves. They just didn't know. It all happened too quick.
    They could've called me and told me of their problem. I would've asked them to look around and see if the murder/suicide weapon was around. If it wasn't then I could've told them the killer wasn't potentially one of the dead. That shouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes to deduce.

    IOW... They were just looking for a hindsight/CYA excuse to toss in the hat and didn't think that excuse thru very well. They would've known in minutes whether the murderer was also a victim at the scene of the first shootings... Even Barney Fife would've been able to make this connection. And I'm sure they did too.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    Most criminals that have illegal guns, steal them from their legal owners...
    What about most criminals that have illegal drugs? Where do they get them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
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    What about most criminals that have illegal drugs? Where do they get them?
    From drug dealers?

    The point I was trying to make is that It's not like there is some syndicate arms dealer out there who is legally purchasing or producing weapons and then selling them to criminals. Criminals usually get guns by stealing them from the lawful owner, or buying them from someone who has stolen them from the lawful owner. If you control how many guns are out in the publics hand, you limit how many can be stolen. I am not a gun control advocate, however it irks me to see people leave their fire arms unsecured in their homes, as these are the ones stolen and used in crimes. Firearms at home should be locked up in a secure place. I have taken too many reports of "oh I had it right here in my dresser drawer" I think people who own guns have a responsibillity to secure those weapons.
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    From drug dealers?

    The point I was trying to make is that It's not like there is some syndicate arms dealer out there who is legally purchasing or producing weapons and then selling them to criminals. Criminals usually get guns by stealing them from the lawful owner, or buying them from someone who has stolen them from the lawful owner.
    That's probably true around here. I'm not sure it is in the South - particularly the southwest. The arms trade across the border with Mexico is a thriving business.

    My guess is that if you took away handguns from the public, smuggled weapons would fill the gap. Maybe there wouldn't be as many of them but folks who wanted a gun and could pay a bit more could get one.

    If there's a market, there will be a product, legal or not.
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    From drug dealers?

    The point I was trying to make is that It's not like there is some syndicate arms dealer out there who is legally purchasing or producing weapons and then selling them to criminals. Criminals usually get guns by stealing them from the lawful owner, or buying them from someone who has stolen them from the lawful owner. If you control how many guns are out in the publics hand, you limit how many can be stolen. I am not a gun control advocate, however it irks me to see people leave their fire arms unsecured in their homes, as these are the ones stolen and used in crimes. Firearms at home should be locked up in a secure place. I have taken too many reports of "oh I had it right here in my dresser drawer" I think people who own guns have a responsibillity to secure those weapons.
    Overall, I agree with you. But the point still remains that if we "control how many guns are out in the publics hand,...", you will only be punishing law abiding people. Criminals will always be able to obtain guns whether you "control" the sale of guns or not.

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
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    Overall, I agree with you. But the point still remains that if we "control how many guns are out in the publics hand,...", you will only be punishing law abiding people. Criminals will always be able to obtain guns whether you "control" the sale of guns or not.
    That's the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

    What I was saying is that a lot of guns are taken by criminals from their legal owners right now..but if we were to ban the sale of hand guns, I'm willing to bet that many arms dealers would pop up and sell them to criminals illegally. Maybe not so much where you guys live, but there are already plenty of arms dealers here in Atlanta who sell hand guns on the street if you go to the right places.

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    Default Re: VA Tech Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    That's the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

    What I was saying is that a lot of guns are taken by criminals from their legal owners right now..but if we were to ban the sale of hand guns, I'm willing to bet that many arms dealers would pop up and sell them to criminals illegally. Maybe not so much where you guys live, but there are already plenty of arms dealers here in Atlanta who sell hand guns on the street if you go to the right places.
    You are right, people think guns will just go away if the Government makes them illegal. Guns, will go away just as much as Marijuana is in nonexistence. On the other hand, the quit scary type like Cho would probably no have gotten them because they don't have the social skills to find them(if guns were illegal). But, the school shooters come around (seems like) once every 5 years. The real murders generate from gangs and everyday thugs that happen day in and day out. Gangs and thugs have the social skills to get anything they want. So with them having the connections the law won't be that beneficial to every day people. If anything, it will hurt the average citizen because you won't have anything to defend your self with. I wish it was that easy but it's not. The mafia and other dealers would LOVE for firearms to be illegal.

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