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Thread: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

  1. #51
    The Future Is Bright JB's Breakout Year's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    It's about standards. It seems to me guys like Naptown Seth and Los Angeles are content with just getting to the playoffs and a 1st round exit every year whereas me and BBall realize that this team needs more talent in the worst way.

    The guys who are saying they'd never root for the Pacers to lose a game are rooting for them to lose something much bigger than any single game - they're rooting for them to lose their future. I'd also say the people rooting for the Pacers to make the playoffs instead of garnering a top-10 pick are selfish "fans" who are only interested in what they want. Everyone would rather see playoffs than no playoffs, but at this point in time losing out on a top-10 pick in a strong draft would do far more negative than a 1st round exit would do positive. The selfish "fans" don't realize this, they're too worried about whether they'll get the enjoyment of watching the playoffs this year.
    You just described me to a T. I AM a selfish fan. Aren't you? Who the hell else are you being a fan for?

    I want the team I root for to win because I enjoy watching them more when they do. If they don't win, and we somehow end up getting a great pick as a result, that's super.

    But my rooting for them to win OR lose doesn't make them do either. I guess if I'm at loud enough at Conseco, they may feed off of the positive energy, but what impact does my rooting for or against them have when I'm sitting on my couch?

    You think rooting against my favorite team is being a team player? What are you talking about?

  2. #52

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    Why do you think Los Angeles wants to see the Pacers in the playoffs? Do you think he's thinking "Geez....some playoff experience sure would help out our youngsters long-term!" I think not. He's thinking "Geez...inviting my friends over, ordering a pizza, and watching the playoffs sure would be a blast!"

    In order words, he's looking out for his best interest, not the teams.
    The best interest for the team is not to trust a person obviously in over his head with draft/trade decsions. But since we can't do anything about it we are here complaining about a top 10 draft pick and playoff games. Both are good for the team but probably won't do much in the grand scheme of things.

    Whats it matter y2j if we lose the pick this year or next? Especially if Shawne Williams is your top 10 pick.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Whats it matter y2j if we lose the pick this year or next? Especially if Shawne Williams is your top 10 pick.
    First, Shawne Williams isn't a top ten pick, hence the reason he wasn't drafted in the top ten in a draft that wasn't nearly as good as this years.

    Second, what's the point of a draft? To acquire talent, correct? This team as it's currently constructed, doesn't have the talent to compete. So what if they get into the playoffs? They're gonna get bounced in 4 games by Detroit, and still going to be in the same position. A sucky one.

    If they manage to get a top 10 pick, they get a player with a pretty good possiblity of helping out the team down the road. If they don't get a top 10 pick, then they get nothing, while continuing to suck.

    The discussion is already turning into "If they don't get a top 10, do they trade for one?" Why would you want to trade for one, if you could get one for free?

    I don't necessarily want them to lose on purpose, but personally I see no difference between missing the playoffs and getting a pick than getting the #8 spot and getting smashed by Det.

    Getting 2 or 3 more wins and then playing 4 games only to be embarassed isn't all that inviting, because the team is going to be in the same exact spot either way. A spot that shows they suck and in need of a roster overhual.

    What other than continuing a playoff streak is a positive of making the playoffs? Are you thinking that it's going to give next year's squad some sense of improvement, and erase a whole season of playing bad basketball? I hope 4 or 5 players are moved either way, so I honestly doubt the new players will be affected at all by this season's outcome.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    Wanting to watch your team in the playoffs, knowing that they have 0 chance of advancing
    There's a reason why they play the games, rather than just hand out a trophy at the end of the regular season. Our chances might be slim, but they are clearly > 0.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If they manage to get a top 10 pick, they get a player with a pretty good possiblity of helping out the team down the road. If they don't get a top 10 pick, then they get nothing, while continuing to suck.

    The discussion is already turning into "If they don't get a top 10, do they trade for one?" Why would you want to trade for one, if you could get one for free?

    I don't necessarily want them to lose on purpose, but personally I see no difference between missing the playoffs and getting a pick than getting the #8 spot and getting smashed by Det.

    Getting 2 or 3 more wins and then playing 4 games only to be embarassed isn't all that inviting, because the team is going to be in the same exact spot either way. A spot that shows they suck and in need of a roster overhual.




    "But, hey, atleast we went to the play-offs!"


    Btw welcome to the group of fans described as "fans" (this is not aimed at you L.A.)


    Regards,

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  6. #56

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Let's put it this way: we had to get rid of Ron. we got Peja, whose deal was expiring. Peja could have just walked, but by a crazy miracle we got a HUGE trade exception, which we used to low-ball Harrington. Pay attention, because this is where your precious pick comes in. All it costs us is a pick to get the best FA left available last summer.

    Next thing you know, Rio happens and we're back in "dump territory", only this time it's Jackson. That's right, they are trying to trade a guy who could go to prison. It's probably easier to trade a guy scheduled for knee surgery.

    But wait - another miracle happens - we get rid of our primary problem (Jackson), plus an aging PG, Harrington and Powell. Harrington was being used often as a center with miserable results. So we upgrade our bench big man, Powell for Diogu. We also upgrade our Center, we upgrade our backup PG, get a roughly even swap (talent wise) at SG but more importantly get rid of public enemy #1.

    All that and the primary piece was acquired with a pick and a low-ball offer.

    On top of all of that, we open up more minutes to our best by the rim finisher, Marquis Daniels and our best young talent, Danny Granger. It's these two that didn't step up, and they are the reason we went into a losing tailspin.

    Upgrades for everyone involved in the trade and a more balanced team. And you are crying about losing a pick.

    If you could have done better under the circumstances, I'd love to hear what you would have done.
    How about not getting into the circumstances in the first place. ITs easy to sit here in hindsight but come on. After all this we are sitting here with a losing record and no clear signs of improving with all the trades and
    p-p-p-potiential draft picks of the past and now. DW needs a better protege not a one man wrecking crew for all he built.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    First, Shawne Williams isn't a top ten pick, hence the reason he wasn't drafted in the top ten in a draft that wasn't nearly as good as this years.

    Second, what's the point of a draft? To acquire talent, correct? This team as it's currently constructed, doesn't have the talent to compete. So what if they get into the playoffs? They're gonna get bounced in 4 games by Detroit, and still going to be in the same position. A sucky one.

    If they manage to get a top 10 pick, they get a player with a pretty good possiblity of helping out the team down the road. If they don't get a top 10 pick, then they get nothing, while continuing to suck.

    The discussion is already turning into "If they don't get a top 10, do they trade for one?" Why would you want to trade for one, if you could get one for free?

    I don't necessarily want them to lose on purpose, but personally I see no difference between missing the playoffs and getting a pick than getting the #8 spot and getting smashed by Det.

    Getting 2 or 3 more wins and then playing 4 games only to be embarassed isn't all that inviting, because the team is going to be in the same exact spot either way. A spot that shows they suck and in need of a roster overhual.

    What other than continuing a playoff streak is a positive of making the playoffs? Are you thinking that it's going to give next year's squad some sense of improvement, and erase a whole season of playing bad basketball? I hope 4 or 5 players are moved either way, so I honestly doubt the new players will be affected at all by this season's outcome.
    Shawne Williams is a top ten pick for LB and that is my point. IT makes no difference going to the playoffs or getting a free "this year" or "next year" draft pick if your hope lies on the shoulders of LB. Exactly what kind of team are we building again. IS it a more athletic get to the rim type of team or is it a jump shooting spread the floor type team? I don't see a clear direction at all and I would be amazed if anyone could.

    The new players will be affected if there is a 4 or 5 overhaul and no clear direction for what is being built.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Shawne Williams is a top ten pick for LB and that is my point. IT makes no difference going to the playoffs or getting a free "this year" or "next year" draft pick if your hope lies on the shoulders of LB. Exactly what kind of team are we building again. IS it a more athletic get to the rim type of team or is it a jump shooting spread the floor type team? I don't see a clear direction at all and I would be amazed if anyone could.

    The new players will be affected if there is a 4 or 5 overhaul and no clear direction for what is being built.
    Says who? You? He was taken 17th in a draft that's not nearly as deep as this one, and you're saying he's a top 10 to LB with no evidence to support your opinion.

    I continue to find this trend hilarious. When something goes wrong, it's Lb's fault. When something positive happens, it's because of DW.

    Why would you want to give up your pick in this years draft, one touted as the deepest maybe ever, over giving up next year's draft pick in a draft that would have to be mindboggling to be better than '07?

    This team sucks, and it needs to be rebuilt. Rebuilding with talent from the deepest draft in quite sometime looks like a pretty freaking good place to start. Get what you can, without a price. Then start trading.

    Get a lottery pick for free in a draft that's extremely loaded, or give up the 14th pick and get smashed in 4 games just to say you made the playoffs? Hmmmmm, that's a hard choice.

    This team isn't going anywhere without major moves. You could save one trade by drafting a player that you would need to trade for.

    You could get a problem area fixed in the draft, and all you would give up is 2-3wins and a playoff showing. I don't think that's a very big price considering they aren't even close to sniffing .500% and need to trade away half the roster again anyways.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Btw welcome to the group of fans described as "fans"
    Hey, I like the quotation marks. Make me feel special. Or is that "special"?
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  10. #60
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Hey, I like the quotation marks. Make me feel special. Or is that "special"?
    Guess that depends on your POV

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  11. #61
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    "But, hey, atleast we went to the play-offs!"


    Btw welcome to the group of fans described as "fans" (this is not aimed at you L.A.)


    Regards,

    Mourning
    OK, I'll admit I'm confused, but I'm willing to learn.

    If I'm understanding your logic correctly, Pacers fans (including myself) who want the Pacers to win and maybe even make it to the Playoffs are not real fans (or are "fans", whatever that means).

    To be a fan (without the quotation marks), I'd have to root for the Pacers to lose? This is the only way I can be a real fan?

    In other words, the true measure of a Pacers fan in our particular circumstance is how much they want the Pacers to lose.

    Even if by rooting for them to lose, they still win, so my rooting for them to lose did nothing to accomplish that result.

    So if they do win any of their remaining 6 games, and even a playoff game, I should be disappointed? To be a real Pacers fan, I mean.

    Please help.

  12. #62
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Think you got that backwards. Fans want the team to win regardless, "fans" think losing in the short term can benefit the team in the long run.
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  13. #63

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Says who? You? He was taken 17th in a draft that's not nearly as deep as this one, and you're saying he's a top 10 to LB with no evidence to support your opinion.

    I continue to find this trend hilarious. When something goes wrong, it's Lb's fault. When something positive happens, it's because of DW.

    Why would you want to give up your pick in this years draft, one touted as the deepest maybe ever, over giving up next year's draft pick in a draft that would have to be mindboggling to be better than '07?

    This team sucks, and it needs to be rebuilt. Rebuilding with talent from the deepest draft in quite sometime looks like a pretty freaking good place to start. Get what you can, without a price. Then start trading.

    Get a lottery pick for free in a draft that's extremely loaded, or give up the 14th pick and get smashed in 4 games just to say you made the playoffs? Hmmmmm, that's a hard choice.

    This team isn't going anywhere without major moves. You could save one trade by drafting a player that you would need to trade for.

    You could get a problem area fixed in the draft, and all you would give up is 2-3wins and a playoff showing. I don't think that's a very big price considering they aren't even close to sniffing .500% and need to trade away half the roster again anyways.
    To address your first remark lets just consider history in management. Who has a proven track record and who doesn't. Who is trying to remove himself from so much responsiblility and who is trying to claim it. Who is the future decision maker and who is the past one. I really don't think its a reach for me to blame LB.

    If you don't think Shawne WIlliams was a drafted to earlier than you must see something alot of other people don't.

    Secondly there is nothing free about this pick. To me alot of people are looking for pawns to fill the void of a king. Great teams aren't built on the best draft in years. Sure we may miss out on a good talent but it won't be Durant and it won't be ODen and those were the only pure breed difference makers I saw this year.

    This years draft would be a good place to start over and I am not opposed of losing the rest of the games for it but lets be real here, the problem isn't the one that can be fixed with a draft or a trade.

  14. #64
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    Why do you think Los Angeles wants to see the Pacers in the playoffs? Do you think he's thinking "Geez....some playoff experience sure would help out our youngsters long-term!" I think not. He's thinking "Geez...inviting my friends over, ordering a pizza, and watching the playoffs sure would be a blast!"

    In order words, he's looking out for his best interest, not the teams.
    I'm calmer now, especially after this exchange with the missus:

    LA: You've got to read this post.

    LA's Wife (reads): That's impossible. You don't have any friends.
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Think you got that backwards. Fans want the team to win regardless, "fans" think losing in the short term can benefit the team in the long run.
    No, real Pacers fans root for the Cavs.
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    With the last win....I officially crossed over from playing for the "pick" to playing for the "playoffs".

    I think that we have won enough games to ensure that we do not have a "10th worst" record in the league and have entered the "Death Valley / No Man's land" area. At this point....we nothing left to play for except for the Playoffs. Once we won our 34th game.....we're not gonna have a bad enough record to get the 10th worst record.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  17. #67
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I'm calmer now, especially after this exchange with the missus:

    LA: You've got to read this post.

    LA's Wife (reads): That's impossible. You don't have any friends.


    Btw JB Kegboy is right about his explanation regarding fan and "fan". Sort of a sarcastic response to some claiming that people holding my, Blue & Gold, Since_86, Y2J and various others opinion can not be considered "real fans" because they don't share the view of making the play-offs, no matter what, this year.

    So, don't feel in the least offended or something .

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    No, real Pacers fans root for the Cavs.
    Eh, never could warm up to them. I'll probably jump on the Bulls wagon come playoff time.
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  19. #69
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Eh, never could warm up to them. I'll probably jump on the Bulls wagon come playoff time.
    Gotta keep it in the family, eh?

    Btw, I picked Chicago in the preseason to come out of the East.

  20. #70
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Btw JB Kegboy is right about his explanation regarding fan and "fan". Sort of a sarcastic response to some claiming that people holding my, Blue & Gold, Since_86, Y2J and various others opinion can not be considered "real fans" because they don't share the view of making the play-offs, no matter what, this year.

    So, don't feel in the least offended or something .

    My bad. Looks like I stuck my nose in the middle of an on-going argument. No offense taken.

  21. #71
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Heaven forbid we go two rounds into the playoffs.

    "Oh Em Gee, If the Pacers start winning, the fans might like it! That's the last thing we want!"

    Do you think about what you write before you write it?

    *flame removed* There's no place for your attitude in sports.

    Furthermore, don't you think that winning could actually IMPROVE the chances of management to change the team - by - you know - raising the value of the current players?

    If you don't think that management has been both committed to change and active in that commitment, you've been living under a freaking rock.


    The scenario Naptown painted was one of the Pacers falling into the playoffs by being not quite as bad as the next team. Not of the Pacers getting hot and entering the playoffs on a roll.

    Then to compound that, he said (paraphrased) maybe we get there and the other team's star player gets injured and we are able to get by that team and into the second round.

    I'm not interested in that. That doesn't do anything for me nor do I think it's really doing anything positive for the team. There's nothing competitive or encouraging about that scenario at all as far as I'm concerned.

    Nowhere have I said that the team should intentionally lose so I hope you aren't putting me in that category. I've thought for a while the team should put Tinsley on the bench for several reasons.... put JO there (or severely limit his minutes) while he's injured rather than risk aggrivating one of his existing injuries or creating a new one (especially because I consider a new injury more likely while playing and favoring a good leg, etc.).

    And then they should use the opportunity to see players like McCleod, Greene, Williams, et al more and more in consistent roles to really see what we have. Try to win with these guys but also try and develop these guys and see who is on a fast track, who is a solid, who is off the tracks.

    I'll agree that if we do that then we might not be able to scrape up a win or two that we might've otherwise had with JO. I don't think Tinsley matters positively over several games... I think Tinsley actually helps our chances to lose... but that's another topic.

    IF the young guys and bench guys would get us on a roll then TPTB would have to consider as to what to do for the final few games if we had a playoff spot in our sights. Could we sustain that and enter the playoffs on a roll if we went back to the old rotations?

    But backing in doesn't appeal to me. Either we enter on a roll or we're wasting everyone's time. Particularly when I know how our front office is when it comes to off season moves and the weight it puts on simply making the playoffs... let alone how they've misjudged the fanbase and not been very proactive with problems no matter how far back you want to look in the Walsh era.

    And a shiny new marketing campaign isn't going to turn me around either.

    But I'm not rooting for losses. I'm rooting for good play and hope for the future. But losses don't really sting either at this point. Just making the playoffs doesn't mean anything to me at any point... and making the playoffs in this condition means even less.

    I only want the team to enter the playoffs playing good basketball. Anything else is a farce. A cruel joke. To enter the playoffs knowing your only chance to advance is if the opposing team's star player gets injured isn't a scenario I want to root for. I'm not that kind of a fan. Now, if we are talking entering the playoffs as the 2nd or maybe 3rd best team then I'd be willing to accept a series win if a better team lost a key player in the playoffs. That would be the breaks of the game and also why you play the games rather than hand out trophies at the end of the regular season. But we're not talking about that type of scenario and this isn't a one game elimination tournament where you can hope to continually advance taking it one game at a time.

    So to answer your question:
    Do you think about what you write before you write it?
    Yes, I do. I may not always get my point across as I sometimes assume others already know my background position based on past posts. And Lord knows I've been accused of repeating myself too much. But I know exactly what I am saying.

    -Bball
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    ------

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  22. #72
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    I like this last post, Bball. I like it very much, but you're confusing the issue.

    This will be my last post on this subject, except for some previously promised "rubbing in" when the Pacers win.

    This entire issue is a jumbled mess because it blends the past with the present.

    The Past:

    We put the franchise in the hands of players that were either insane or were not going to get along. Getting out of years of bad choices and the ensuing damage (that by the way started long before Larry Bird) has been the primary goal for coming on 2 seasons. This is called "blowing it up".

    On 11/19/2004 we had 15 players, including a rookie. Of those players, only 3 vets, one of whom is a perennial all-star, and the then rookie remain.

    We've even added and dropped players not included in that 15. Davis, Jasikevicous and Harrington are a few of the notables there.

    Using a quick-glance estimate, over the last 2 years or so, we've dressed over 20 different players that are no longer here. This is what "blowing it up" is, and this is what it feels like.

    The Future:

    We all understand the predicament the team is in. If we win more regular season games, we could play a few more games in the playoffs but we could lose a "free" chance at a young talent. If we lose more games, we are in the odd situation of gaining a benefit: we get a pick.

    For the sake of argument, let's take a philosophical stance that the future is only about CHOICES (i.e. ACTIONS). Just for now, let's forget how we feel and only deal with what we DO.

    Again, let's not talk about what you want. Let?s talk about what you DO. This is why "rooting to lose" rubs me the wrong way like crazy. What is the ACTION of rooting for a team to lose? How do you ACT that way and not expect to get called out for it?

    But hey, it's not all about cheering and jeering. A lot of the participants in this forum love to hand out free advise to the players, coaches and management. Rather than taking actions ourselves, this is where we recommend others take action.

    Once again we are faced with a choice. What actions do we recommend to the management when faced with this pick situation? Do we recommend rolling up our sleeves and working hard to find a way to win? Before you answer, consider the converse. What ACTIONS do you recommend to achieve the desired 10th pick prize?

    And here we are, the worst possible sin in sports at any level. Intentionally throwing a game in order to achieve a "reward" outside of the game.

    So, to tie things up: in the end I could care less about what you would like to have happen using your "inside" voice. But on the outside our words and actions have consequences.

    Imagine that you are explaining the situation to a 5 year old child. What lesson do you want to teach this young mind? That losing is desirable as long as you get a reward later? Or that we play games to exercise our minds, our bodies and our WILL? The harder we work and the harder we try, the better we become.

    Watching men fight through adversity and put up their best efforts will never be a waste of my time.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Eh, never could warm up to them. I'll probably jump on the Bulls wagon come playoff time.
    Wizards?
    STARBURY

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Not making the playoffs would be a considerable blow the reputation of this team and it's management, especially Larry Bird. Imagine the headlines if the Pacers aren't playing in the playoffs. Look at what the playoffs did to Anthony Johnson's value or for that matter Marquis Daniels.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    To address your first remark lets just consider history in management. Who has a proven track record and who doesn't. Who is trying to remove himself from so much responsiblility and who is trying to claim it. Who is the future decision maker and who is the past one. I really don't think its a reach for me to blame LB.
    So who gets the credit for drafting Danny? Oh, must be DW since it's a positive even though LB was in the office.

    So who gets the credit for getting a TE from the Hornets for Peja? Oh, must be DW since it's a positive even though LB was in the office.

    I have yet to read anything saying drafting Shawne was LB's call, or drafting Danny was LW, or anything else for that matter. Sorry, but I think it's highly laughable that Larry is behind every bad decision, and Donnie is behind everything that's good. That's just absurd to think.

    If LB kept screwing things up, why does he continue to make decisions, or even better, why does he still have a freaking job? Or do you think Donnie likes watching this organization run into the ground while he still has the power to change it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    If you don't think Shawne WIlliams was a drafted to earlier than you must see something alot of other people don't.
    Whether I think he was drafted too high or not is irrelevant.

    Fact: He wasn't a top ten pick.
    Fact: This years draft is by far more loaded than last years.

    Why in the world would you say he, or a player of his caliber, would be taken over bigger prospects in such a deep draft? You must have inside information that Larry is running this years draft huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Secondly there is nothing free about this pick. To me alot of people are looking for pawns to fill the void of a king. Great teams aren't built on the best draft in years. Sure we may miss out on a good talent but it won't be Durant and it won't be ODen and those were the only pure breed difference makers I saw this year.

    This years draft would be a good place to start over and I am not opposed of losing the rest of the games for it but lets be real here, the problem isn't the one that can be fixed with a draft or a trade.
    Where has ANYONE said they would be fixed by just a draft? Every post I've made in this discussion has mentioned other trades. Obviously the draft isn't a solve all. But I'm sure I've already said it once, but it's a pretty damn good place to start.

    Also, how is it not free? They don't have to give up any players for it, nor cash. The only thing it will cost is a couple more L's and a streak that to me, doesn't mean a whole lot. Who freaking cares if we make the playoffs until the end of time? Mediocrity isn't a trait I like having, nor a trait I want my teams to have. When do teams get banners? When they actually accomplish something. Personally, I think the East should only get 6 teams in the playoffs tops, because it's a joke such bad teams have the opportunity to continue playing.

    I would much rather give up a pick in a worse draft, then give up a pick in a draft that has the possibility of being the deepest ever.

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