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Thread: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

  1. #26

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Is Atlanta rquired to take the pick this year or can they defer to the following less protected years?
    I believe they have to take the pick, unless it says otherwise, which apparently it doesn't.

    You raise a good question because if we sneak into the playoffs over Orlando, the Hawks won't even have a lottery pick.

  2. #27
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    As for those vehemently opposed to tanking, what if the Pacers were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs with...say...three games or so to go, but could still get the #10 spot for a draft pick with an 0-3 finish and some other circumstances. Would you still root for a win?
    Yes, I would root for them to win....win a draft pick of course.

    If I watched the Pacers for the regular season games, I would not watch them at all. The only thing that really matters is the playoffs or when teams have a rivalry. Nothing else puts fire in the belly.

    Also, NBA players do not give maximum effort until it really matters. That's one of the reasons the college game can be a better experience. More guys in college are scrambling. It's not a "business" to them, it is strictly sport and love for the game. They are less concerned about injuries and more concerned about victories....all season long.

    That's why people say the playoffs are a whole nother level. Playoffs are when every one of these guys are really trying to win...or at least most of the time. It's when the very best basketball players in the world are giving it their all. That's what I want to see. Not a regular season game where a contender plays down to a sad team...then turns it on in the 4th quarter. That's just a waste of 2 hours IMO.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Absolutely yes. Absolutely.

    I don't care if the team isn't any good and doesn't have a chance to go to the playoffs. Without hesitation, I will always root for a win.

    Always.

    Imagine yourself in the stands at Conseco - or better yet, you're on the west side of Indy at Yester Daze Pub and there's a guy in a Pacers jersey cheering after every opposing basket and jeering after every good Pacers play. What kind of reception do you think this guy will get?

    I don't care if this is the internet, there is no difference in my mind, you are responsible for your attitude and actions, even in the ether.

    Rooting for your own team to lose is traitorous sacrilege. Yesterday. Today. Tomorrow.

    Rooting for the team to win when they're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs yet still have a shot at a top-10 pick is plain moronic. Yesterday. Today. Tomorrow. Just plain stupid.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    I want what I feel is best for the team, short-term and/or long-term. For now, a top-10 pick is definitely better for them so that is what I want.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I want what I feel is best for the team, short-term and/or long-term. For now, a top-10 pick is definitely better for them so that is what I want.
    I'm kind of in this camp as well, though every time I watch a game, I still find myself pulling for a win.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    I'm kind of in this camp as well, though every time I watch a game, I still find myself pulling for a win.
    I know what you mean, but sometimes I can keep in my mind "this game is nothing compared to the ultimate goal".

  7. #32
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Good grief. I'm not accusing anyone of not being a "real fan".

    I used to look forward to giving other team's fans a little fun ribbing after a Pacers win. I've never done the "sore winner" bit. I've always hated that stuff.

    Never in my life have I imagined ever needing to "rub in" a Pacers win into the faces of other Pacers fans.

    This is all about a freaking #10 or so pick. Stupid is right.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  8. #33
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    I want what I feel is best for the team, short-term and/or long-term. For now, a top-10 pick is definitely better for them so that is what I want.
    You don't (Bender) know (Tisdale) this for a fact.

    If they make a pick this year, go nowhere with it next year then next summer will be identical to where we are now.

    The people looking to give up the pick now are the ones trying not to prolong the suffering, not the people thinking tank. Sooner or later Atlanta is going to come calling when the protection doesn't save the pick anymore. As long as the pick remains protected it means the Pacers just had a lousy year.


    I know the contract/roster situation looks like a mess, but honestly a draft pick doesn't solve that very much. This team needs to rebuild it's image with the fanbase, and the image isn't "thug" it's "losers"...and that's a lot worse if you haven't noticed (go to a game, it's brutal even on nights when Tinsley isn't playing and Jackson is long gone).

    What's everyone's favorite game in the last few seasons, the one people always use as proof that they allegedly don't care how bad the team is as long as they play hard (yeah, right)? Post-brawl, no-chance underdogs vs ORL.

    This team is toast, therefore they are serious underdogs. No locals think they have a shot, so if they do win and get in, and then follow that up with at least a couple of playoff wins too, they will win a little credit with the fans for staying tough and continuing to fight.

    For all we know the first round opponent might lose their star player to injury after the first game and never recover, and that would really get the fans interested again.

    I'm not going to Vegas to bet their chances but I'll keep watching as long as they keep trying.


    An anecdote comes to mind, I think it was Ted Williams or Joe D that talked about busting their butt every day. When asked why they said "because somewhere in the stands are a couple of kids who came this one day to see me for the first and maybe their only time, I owe it to them to do my best and give them what they came for". Paraphrasing of course.

    Which one of you wants to be the guy who spent $60, even just $20 to come to a game only to have them walk out and announce "due to draft interests we forfeit and are going home, you won't be getting your money back, but just think about how good we might be in a few years from now and I'm sure you'll realize it was worth it to give up your ticket money tonight."

    For many fans the games that regulars don't want to go to is their big chance to get free tickets handed off to them and to see an NBA game in person for once. Maybe they get to go 2 times a year at most. They probably would like to see some real effort.

  9. #34
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    You don't (Bender) know (Tisdale) this for a fact.

    If they make a pick this year, go nowhere with it next year then next summer will be identical to where we are now.

    The people looking to give up the pick now are the ones trying not to prolong the suffering, not the people thinking tank. Sooner or later Atlanta is going to come calling when the protection doesn't save the pick anymore. As long as the pick remains protected it means the Pacers just had a lousy year.


    I know the contract/roster situation looks like a mess, but honestly a draft pick doesn't solve that very much. This team needs to rebuild it's image with the fanbase, and the image isn't "thug" it's "losers"...and that's a lot worse if you haven't noticed (go to a game, it's brutal even on nights when Tinsley isn't playing and Jackson is long gone).

    What's everyone's favorite game in the last few seasons, the one people always use as proof that they allegedly don't care how bad the team is as long as they play hard (yeah, right)? Post-brawl, no-chance underdogs vs ORL.

    This team is toast, therefore they are serious underdogs. No locals think they have a shot, so if they do win and get in, and then follow that up with at least a couple of playoff wins too, they will win a little credit with the fans for staying tough and continuing to fight.

    For all we know the first round opponent might lose their star player to injury after the first game and never recover, and that would really get the fans interested again.

    Wow... backing into the playoffs... then backing into the 2nd round due to the other's team misfortune... How thoroughly exciting that would be.

    Then blasted out of the 2nd round (where we didn't deserve to be in the first place) and watching TPTB decide they don't need to do nearly as much to 'fix' the team since they made it to the 2nd round and so deserve a training camp and time to come together. Plus, maybe the fans will warm to them... being a 2nd round team and all.

    No thanks... That is the true Death Valley scenario.

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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    I'm not going to bail on wanting a pick just because it could not work out. It's a lot better than what Bball is saying (and I agree with him).

  11. #36
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    From the article by MM on the Pacers in the 80's
    ? 1983-84: Went 26-56, the worst record in the league. But it had traded its first-round pick three years earlier to Portland for 32-year-old journeyman center Tom Owens. Had it kept its No. 2 overall pick, the Pacers could have selected Michael Jordan or Charles Barkley.
    Now reflect on this one more time

    Draft right protection with Atlanta
    This year - top 10
    Year 2 - top 8
    Year 3 - top 5
    Year 4 - none

    That 80's team sure wishes they'd handed over their 1st round pick a lot sooner than they did.

    Even if this team goes down the drain they'll be certain to have their pick the next 3 years if they give it up this year. Otherwise a few years of really bad play could look identical to the 80's, including giving the Hawks the #2 overall pick when the next Jordan comes out in 4 years.

    You just don't know. I don't get the outrage over something that is totally unknown and as shown above could go much, much worse if the Pacers continue down the losing path and protect the pick for a few years while "loading up" on Stipo, Kellogg and Tisdale.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Wow... backing into the playoffs... then backing into the 2nd round due to the other's team misfortune... How thoroughly exciting that would be.

    Then blasted out of the 2nd round (where we didn't deserve to be in the first place) and watching TPTB decide they don't need to do nearly as much to 'fix' the team since they made it to the 2nd round and so deserve a training camp and time to come together. Plus, maybe the fans will warm to them... being a 2nd round team and all.

    No thanks... That is the true Death Valley scenario.

    -Bball
    Heaven forbid we go two rounds into the playoffs.

    "Oh Em Gee, If the Pacers start winning, the fans might like it! That's the last thing we want!"

    Do you think about what you write before you write it?

    *flame removed* There's no place for your attitude in sports.

    Furthermore, don't you think that winning could actually IMPROVE the chances of management to change the team - by - you know - raising the value of the current players?

    If you don't think that management has been both committed to change and active in that commitment, you've been living under a freaking rock.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  13. #38
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Yeah, because a 2nd round playoff team is a bad thing. We need top 10 picks, not playoff wins.

    See, then once we get those picks we can get better and....win some playoff games???

    Wait a second, that's really a bad thing, right? So what do you want these picks for? Do they only stop tanking when it's about 90% certain that they will win it all? Who decides when they have a "legit" chance vs needing higher draft picks?

    That ECF team of 03-04, should have just tanked all year, gone 20-62 and gotten another pick rather than WASTING OUR TIME by not winning it all. The Isiah team, should have just tanked all year instead of just the 2nd half.

    The 91-92 Pacers lost in round 1. They had been a 500 team and stayed that way the following year even. This included bland 1st round losses to Boston and NY. Guess instead of a thrilling game 4 win in MSA you guys were pulling for more losses before then. Game 5 in Boston, bah, one of the low points in Pacers memory, most fans were hoping to move up in the draft 5 picks instead.

    Don't get me started on how they just wasted the 93-95 seasons. Did they win it all? What happened in 96 (first round loss)? What happened in 97 (no playoffs)?

    What Larry Brown should have done was tank to get higher picks instead. No title equals total failure.


    BTW, the Pacers did have a first round pick after going out in the first round to NY 1-3. That pick - Scott Haskin. The result - ECF the next year, game 7 vs NY, the team that just walked over them the year before.

    And your upset that this team might be giving up Scott Haskin for a first round loss? Oh no, they could have moved up and taken Bobby Hurley, Calbert Cheaney, Isiah Rider, or Shawn Bradley. Lindsey Hunter is probably the prize from picks 5-10.

    Webber went 1. Penny went 3. Or since they went for a big how about Roy Rogers at 9. Vin Baker at 8 gives you a Harrington-esque frontline guy. Meanwhile even at 14 they could have drafted Sam Cassell.


    Sorry, I enjoyed the 2 home games vs NY a lot more than I would have enjoyed Rogers instead of Haskin, or even Vin Baker over McKey (he sure as hell wouldn't play over Dale).

  14. #39

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Problem is you can committed and still make very bad decisions. If you want to limit you chances of fixing a team its by covering one mistake with another.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    It's about standards. It seems to me guys like Naptown Seth and Los Angeles are content with just getting to the playoffs and a 1st round exit every year whereas me and BBall realize that this team needs more talent in the worst way.

    The guys who are saying they'd never root for the Pacers to lose a game are rooting for them to lose something much bigger than any single game - they're rooting for them to lose their future. I'd also say the people rooting for the Pacers to make the playoffs instead of garnering a top-10 pick are selfish "fans" who are only interested in what they want. Everyone would rather see playoffs than no playoffs, but at this point in time losing out on a top-10 pick in a strong draft would do far more negative than a 1st round exit would do positive. The selfish "fans" don't realize this, they're too worried about whether they'll get the enjoyment of watching the playoffs this year.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Y2J - You're wrong. The future of the franchise does not depend on the 2007 #10 pick. The mere thought of that is laughable beyond belief.

    Further, the draft is only one way to get acquire talent.
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J
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    The selfish "fans" don't realize this, they're too worried about whether they'll get the enjoyment of watching the playoffs this year.
    Wow. That's just laughable.

    ...so wanting your team to make the playoffs is being a "selfish fan?" What a ridiculous concept.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  18. #43

    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    A draft pick is only as good as you make it and so far the recent track record is poor. The trades have been poor and the solutions to the problems have been poor.

    I think both of you guys have good arguments but it all hinges on 2 guys making good decisions which are few and far between here of late.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Wow. That's just laughable.

    ...so wanting your team to make the playoffs is being a "selfish fan?" What a ridiculous concept.
    Wanting to watch your team in the playoffs, knowing that they have 0 chance of advancing, at the expense of a top-10 pick is in fact extremely selfish. Stop worrying about what you want, and think about what the team needs.

    We'd all like to watch our favorite team in the playoffs, but as I already pointed out, the negative (losing out on a top-10 pick) far outweighs the positive (letting the young guys experience the playoffs....by being slaughtered in 4 games). The selfish fans don't realize this because they're too caught up in what they want as opposed to what the team needs.

  20. #45
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Let's put it this way: we had to get rid of Ron. we got Peja, whose deal was expiring. Peja could have just walked, but by a crazy miracle we got a HUGE trade exception, which we used to low-ball Harrington. Pay attention, because this is where your precious pick comes in. All it costs us is a pick to get the best FA left available last summer.

    Next thing you know, Rio happens and we're back in "dump territory", only this time it's Jackson. That's right, they are trying to trade a guy who could go to prison. It's probably easier to trade a guy scheduled for knee surgery.

    But wait - another miracle happens - we get rid of our primary problem (Jackson), plus an aging PG, Harrington and Powell. Harrington was being used often as a center with miserable results. So we upgrade our bench big man, Powell for Diogu. We also upgrade our Center, we upgrade our backup PG, get a roughly even swap (talent wise) at SG but more importantly get rid of public enemy #1.

    All that and the primary piece was acquired with a pick and a low-ball offer.

    On top of all of that, we open up more minutes to our best by the rim finisher, Marquis Daniels and our best young talent, Danny Granger. It's these two that didn't step up, and they are the reason we went into a losing tailspin.

    Upgrades for everyone involved in the trade and a more balanced team. And you are crying about losing a pick.

    If you could have done better under the circumstances, I'd love to hear what you would have done.
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  21. #46
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Wanting to watch your team in the playoffs, knowing that they have 0 chance of advancing, at the expense of a top-10 pick is in fact extremely selfish. Stop worrying about what you want, and think about what the team needs.
    As a fan, what the team wants should be what I need, not the other way around. I pay to see them, they do not pay me to show up and watch. They should be trying to make the fans happy. The fans should not be trying to make the team happy.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Why do you think Los Angeles wants to see the Pacers in the playoffs? Do you think he's thinking "Geez....some playoff experience sure would help out our youngsters long-term!" I think not. He's thinking "Geez...inviting my friends over, ordering a pizza, and watching the playoffs sure would be a blast!"

    In order words, he's looking out for his best interest, not the teams.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Y2J View Post
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    Why do you think Los Angeles wants to see the Pacers in the playoffs? Do you think he's thinking "Geez....some playoff experience sure would help out our youngsters long-term!" I think not. He's thinking "Geez...inviting my friends over, ordering a pizza, and watching the playoffs sure would be a blast!"

    In order words, he's looking out for his best interest, not the teams.
    Wow - why don't you ask me directly. You're wrong and you're insulting me.

    *flame removed*
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  24. #49
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    I'm getting pissed at this guy, so I'm going to have to check out for a while.

    Y2J, don't even try to claim you know one thing about me.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  25. #50
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    Default Re: Is anyone still thinking "tank?"

    I'm starting to think that's just how he lives his life now. Leave him be.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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