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Thread: McCleod better then Tinsley.

  1. #26
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by tora tora View Post
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    The guy was a stud in Utah, he just needs some consistent playing time which at this point in the season I hope he gets.
    Then why was he relegated to the end of the bench in Golden State?

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    Then why was he relegated to the end of the bench in Golden State?

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by tora tora View Post
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    That and being in Nellie's system. Being a former Jerry Sloan player, it's natural for McCleod to be a better fit in a structured system vs. a system where a play is seldom run. I think we need to keep Keith, but not as the starter. I don't think he's better than Tinsley, but I do think he's better than Anthony Johnson.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Is McLeod better than Tinsley - NO, he isn't. Is Peja better than Artest - NO, he isn't.

    The question really isn't who is better - That really matters very little. The question should be who is better for this Pacers team. I don't know how good McLeod really is - or how good he'll fit in here long term. But I do know Tinsley's time here is over.

    So, I'll say this. If someone asked me right now. The choice is either Tinsley as the Pacers starting point guard next season or McLeod - and those are your only two choices. I would choose McLeod without a second thought.

    Of course you thought Travis and AJ were point guards.

    How can any rational person think McLeod is better than Jamaal?

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Of course you thought Travis and AJ were point guards.
    I consider anyone who plays the point guard position to be point guards. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it is the same way with Centers. Anyone who plays the center position is a center. Are they a true center - well there might only be 2 "true centers" in the NBA - but whoever plays the center position I consider a center

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    He may be better for a transition between post tinsley and new PG. I am not impressed that Tinsley is capable of being a really good PG. He either brings it every night or he doesn't and too often he just doesn't. So what good is it to say he is better if he doesn't play that way. There are lots of people who have talent and don't use it. Tinsley is one of those.

    Let's face it, given your views it seems you'd take Eddie Gill at PG over Tinsley at this point.

    Sorry but Tinsley has the talent and does use it a lot more than you would admit. But he's the flavor of the month scapegoat so who I am to get between that? *rolleyes*

  7. #32
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Smooth View Post
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    Let's face it, given your views it seems you'd take Eddie Gill at PG over Tinsley at this point.

    Sorry but Tinsley has the talent and does use it a lot more than you would admit. But he's the flavor of the month scapegoat so who I am to get between that? *rolleyes*
    Scapegoat:
    a person or group made to bear the blame for others or to suffer in their place.

    As a scapegoat, Tinsley must be getting blamed for someone. Whose actions is poor Tinman being blamed for? Jack? Artest?

    Or is Tinsley being blamed for his OWN actions at both Club Rio and the 8 Second Saloon? Or perhaps the way he plays basketball?

    Where in the &%$# is personal responsibility these days?

  8. #33
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    obviously keith isn't nearly as talented as tinsley. but keith might help this team in ways jamaal just can't or doesn't anymore. some point guards fit systems and lineups better than others. and right now, i think we should keep giving keith the minutes. a lot of people have described the pacers as "quitting" in march and i think a lot of that revolves around jamaal's attitude. i think the point guard sets that tone for a team on the floor. and really whats the worst that could happen to let keith start the rest of the season? we're already out of the playoffs and if we don't squeak in it won't be his fault (i don't think you can blame him for the 11 game losing streak). tinsley is gone regardless of talent and i think this is the time we should be looking at keith and greene to see if we want to bring either back for next year (as much as i love army's energy he isn't an answer - fun to watch, but the legs are all but gone). same with maceo (and rawle to a lesser extent). the worst that could happen is that we don't improve our playoff position.

    right now we're stuck in this odd place as a franchise and maybe not having draft picks at the moment is a really good thing because its going to force TPTB to make moves and trades and play the FA market.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Smooth View Post
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    Let's face it, given your views it seems you'd take Eddie Gill at PG over Tinsley at this point.

    Sorry but Tinsley has the talent and does use it a lot more than you would admit. But he's the flavor of the month scapegoat so who I am to get between that? *rolleyes*
    Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows that Eddie Gill is the prototypical SF.

    Well, Rick Carlisle does, anyway.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    I could live with McLeod as a starter, but only if he was next to Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, or Michael Redd.
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    McCloud isn't a bad player, he is not my ideal pg mainly because he isn't a terrific ball handler and I don't think he has great court vision.This was very evident in the Cetics game when they decided to full court press. However he does play defense and I think there has been better ball movement with McCloud out there. Not sure if this is because of McCloud or it's because without Tinlsey, Dunlevy has been playing more of a point forward role on this team which I love by the way and which he is much better suited at then being a shooter/scorer.

    If this guy can consistantly hit a open jumpshot and play defense I could live with him as a short term answer as pg and as our future backup pg.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Hell, I'm still not sure that McLeod is better than Runi just yet.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    Hell, I'm still not sure that McLeod is better than Runi just yet.
    He can dribble the ball up the floor without assistance and isn't a terrible defender. That's tells me all I need to know in that debate.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    He can dribble the ball up the floor without assistance and isn't a terrible defender. That's tells me all I need to know in that debate.
    AMEN. AMEN. AMEEEEENNNNNN.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Scapegoat:
    a person or group made to bear the blame for others or to suffer in their place.

    As a scapegoat, Tinsley must be getting blamed for someone. Whose actions is poor Tinman being blamed for? Jack? Artest?

    Or is Tinsley being blamed for his OWN actions at both Club Rio and the 8 Second Saloon? Or perhaps the way he plays basketball?

    Where in the &%$# is personal responsibility these days?
    With SJax and Harrington gone, yes Tinsley becomes the scapegoat. Surely getting rid of him will cure the Pacers ills, just as getting rid of Artest, SJax and Al solved many problems. I'm sure getting rid of Tinsley will make the plan complete and all will be well in Pacerville.

    Whatever point you had, you didn't present it very well.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Of course you thought Travis and AJ were point guards.

    How can any rational person think McLeod is better than Jamaal?
    How can any rational person still support Tinsley when the team that he's supposed to "lead" is so incredibly bad?

    Surely, the entirety of the blame doesn't land on Jamaal, but as the PG, he takes a lot of it. At some point, no matter the talent, a player simply outstays his welcome with a team. Jamaal has reached that point with the Pacers. Just like Ron did, and Jackson, and Harrington, and IMO Jermaine.

    Stop supporting Jamaal just because he's Jamaal. Support the Pacers and realize that he's not the answer at PG for us anymore.

    --pizza
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  17. #42

    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    McCleod started a bunch of games for Jerry Sloan in Utah. Sure, not a great Utah team then, but starting for Sloan is noteworthy.

    He's a ton better than Sarunas. Sarunas is not an NBA player, period, and will probably be out of the Association next year.

    Is Tinsley more talented? Yes, he is. Does he fulfill that talent? No, he doesn't and hasn't and seemingly will not. I'd leave Tinsley on the bench the remainder of the season, and ship him out for whatever afterward.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    How can any rational person still support Granger when the team that he's supposed to "lead" is so incredibly bad?

    Surely, the entirety of the blame doesn't land on Danny but as the SF, he takes a lot of it. At some point, no matter the talent, a player simply outstays his welcome with a team. Danny has reached that point with the Pacers. Just like Ron did, and Jackson, and Harrington, and IMO Jermaine.

    Stop supporting Danny just because he's Danny. Support the Pacers and realize that he's not the answer at SF for us anymore.

    --pizza
    Once can fill in those blanks with whomever the popular scapegoat of the day would be.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    The more that people want to pin the blame on a specific player, the more sick to my stomach I get. It is patently ridiculous.

    A lot of folks refuse to see the forest for the trees.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    I think context is the key word that should be applied here. Keith McLeod has played two decent games. He put up some points on the Celtics but had little else to show for his game and last time I check 5 assists, 3 t/o's and 11 points isn't anything to write home about especially against the Bobcats. As for him being a "stud" in Utah, he started 47 games for a 26-56 Jazz team while putting up 4.5 APG and 7.8 PPG and then lost his starting job the next season to a rookie. I think his play in the last two games may warrant a look at Darrell Armstrong's job but not Tinsley's.

  21. #46

    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    I like Tinsley.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  22. #47

    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    If you want D, McCleod is your guy. If he plays within the system, he's not bad by any means.
    -He does draw fouls when he drives
    -Passes
    His biggest problem is his sometimes crappy shot selection.

    As for the post above, I think Sloan's team under McCleod did have a winning record?? There's some guy floating around the inn'ernet named "dew07" or something who knows McCleod stats via diary (don't ask me).

    That said, a lineup of Mcleod + Dunleavy would spell; points from your front court. That backcourt would be fun in the sense you'd never know what you're gonna get from them on a nightly basis.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    It's been TWO GAMES against TWO OF THE WORST TEAMS IN THE NBA.

    Talk about jumping the shark.
    And Tinsley fares much better against the same kind of competition?
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    He is not better than Tinsley. He never will be better than Tinsley. But like UB is saying, McLeod may be better for the team.
    4 assists to 3 turnovers on 5-8. Sound familiar, sounds like "Title Run Best"...except he never really took the team anywhere as the starting PG. They actually had to draft Tins to replace me to make forward progress.

    This is the Celtics putting out RAY and RONDO, no West even, no Pierce, just a huge pile of slop, and McLeod put in some shots vs those bench/scrubs impersonating a starting lineup. wow.


    This just in, James White ripped up the NBDL, Spurs put Parker on the bench to make room for White in the starting lineup.

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    Default Re: McCleod better then Tinsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    And Tinsley fares much better against the same kind of competition?
    He sure as hell does better than 4 assists on a 1.33 A/TO ratio, and we're talking about his average across the board against ALL talent this season, not just the duds.

    The stats aren't lying, he shoots poorly but he hands out more assists without turning it over as much. The guy had NINE assists in the first quarter of a game last week, double what McLeod just did vs Boston over the entire game.

    And for a bad defender he creates more steals, basically because he is crafty and a strong help defender, even if he struggles on the ball.


    BTW, this is per minute, not just per game, it's not a playing time thing.

    per48 assists - Tins 10.6, KM 7.2 (less than Saras BTW), Army 7.0, Greene 4.0

    per48 steals - Tins 2.51, KM 1.21, Army 2.73, Greene 2.75...see a trend there

    A/TO - Tins 2.47, KM 1.88, Army 2.43, Greene 0.73


    Tinsley is a great PG as long as he doesn't shoot too much, that's his big issue. Otherwise it's simply not a debate. The numbers also back that Greene is a defensive only guy and that while Army has been a good backup he hasn't really surpassed Tins as an offensive PG or left him in the dust when it comes to steals.


    This is just scapgoat-itis which has been running wild the last few years.

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