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Thread: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

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    Default Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Interesting note by Brunner on the Ps site. Is there a way the membership of PD can be a catalyst in getting the Hall of Fame to take notice of our very own?


    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_070404.html

    HALL OF FAME SNUBS FRUSTRATE ABA LEGENDS
    The Indianapolis Star's Mark Montieth recently did an excellent job reflecting the annual frustration the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame selection process represents for players and coaches whose primary work was done in the ABA.
    While the Hall annually inducts broadcasters, referees, international players and coaches, etc., it has yet to recognize a player or coach exclusively for his work in the ABA. Thus, names like Bobby "Slick" Leonard, Roger Brown, George McGinnis and Mel Daniels remain absent from the Hall.



    Daniels

    "It would be very nice to get some guys from the ABA in," Daniels told Montieth. "We did play, and it is a basketball Hall of Fame. For whatever reason, they chose to neglect (some ABA players and coaches). It's beyond me."

    Perhaps the biggest affront is the exclusion of Leonard, who won three ABA championships and 529 games with the Pacers, while obscure international coaches are annually honored. This year's example is former Yugoslavian national coach Mirko Novosel.

    "You get some guy who coached in the Ukraine in 1914 and he's a Hall of Famer," Daniels said. "Slick can't get in the Hall of Fame. I don't understand it."
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    http://www.hoophall.com/ot/bhof-enshrinement.html

    Guidelines For Nomination and Election Into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame

    ELIGIBILITY
    Candidates must meet the following requirements in order to be eligible for Enshrinement into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (hereafter BHOF):

    Player: A player must be fully retired for five years before being eligible for Enshrinement. He/she may then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement. Should a player come out of retirement for a short period of time, as defined by the BHOF, his/her case and eligibility for Enshrinement shall be reviewed on an individual basis.

    Coach: A coach must be either fully retired for five years or, if still an active coach, have coached as either a fulltime assistant or head coach on the high school and/or college and/or professional level for a minimum of 25 years. That person will then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement or 26th year of active coaching.

    Referee: A referee must be fully retired for five years or, if still an active referee, have been an active referee for a minimum of 25 years. That person will then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement or 26th year of refereeing.

    Contributor: A person is eligible for Enshrinement as a contributor at any time for significant contributions to the game of basketball. What constitutes a "significant contribution" shall be determined by the BHOF, its Screening Committee(s) or Honors Committee(s).

    NOMINATION PROCESS
    A Nomination Packet consists of a completed nomination form procured from the BHOF, and news clippings, magazine articles or other informative, factual data about the candidate.

    This material shall be submitted to the President and CEO of the BHOF during the period beginning October 1 and ending Dec 2. All nominees with completed nomination materials are presented to the appropriate Screening Committee for review.

    SCREENING COMMITTEES
    There are four Screening Committees: 1. North American; 2. Women; 3. Veterans (an individual whose career ended 35 years before his/her current consideration); and 4. International. These Committees will review and recommend individuals to be reviewed for Enshrinement by the Honors Committee. The North American Committee consists of nine members. The Women's, International, and Veteran's Screening Committees are each composed of seven members. To advance to the Honors Committee, an individual requires a minimum number of affirmative votes from the applicable Screening Committee (North American: at least 7 of 9; all others at least 5 of 7). If an individual does not receive a single affirmative vote for three consecutive years (0-27 or 0-21) that person's candidacy is suspended for five years after which time he/she may again start the process of being reviewed by a Screening Committee. There is no limitation on the number of years a person can be considered for Enshrinement by a Screening Committee unless that person does not receive a single vote for three consecutive years. Screening Committees may put forth a maximum number of finalists to the Honors Committee as follows: North American 10; all others 2.

    RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES
    After the vote of the Screening Committees, those candidates who are recommended to be put forth to the Honors Committee will first be reviewed by the BHOF Board of Trustees. At this time, should it be determined by the Board of Trustees that an individual has damaged the integrity of the game of basketball, he or she shall be deemed not worthy of Enshrinement and removed from consideration.

    HONORS COMMITTEE
    The purpose of the Honors Committee is to review carefully a candidate's basketball record before casting a vote in favor of Enshrining the person into the BHOF. There are 24 people on each of the four Honors Committees. A core group of 12 people sit on all four committees. Twelve specialists are then added to the International Committee while 12 others are added to the Women's Committee. Twelve other specialists review both the Veterans Committee and the North American Committee. These specialists have an intimate understanding of the specific category of play considered by their committee. A person needs a minimum of 18 votes from an Honors Committee to be Enshrined into the BHOF.

    If the Honors Committee has not elected a candidate for five consecutive years, the person's candidacy will be suspended for five years and will not be considered during this time. Following this five-year period, the candidate will be eligible to be reconsidered by the appropriate Screening Committee.

    For additional information about the election process or to receive a nomination form, please contact the Basketball Hall of Fame at (413) 781-6500 or make a formal nomination form request via fax at 413-781-1939
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Slick is nominated actually.

    Just found this on the HOF site. After Brunner posted the above article I wonder why this wasn't picked up on and once again is there anything the PD membership can do to help Slick out?http://www.hoophall.com/genrel/040307aaa.html

    FINALISTS ANNOUNCED FOR THE MANNIE JACKSON - BASKETBALL'S HUMAN SPIRT AWARD

    Elite Group of Finalists Honored for their Humanitarian Efforts






    April 2, 2007


    SPRINGFIELD, MA - The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame announced today the finalists for The Mannie Jackson - Basketball's Human Spirit Award, created to honor individuals who have incorporated basketball into their efforts to contribute to the greater good of society. Dikembe Mutombo, NBA player and founder of the Dikembe Mutombo Foundation, Earvin "Magic" Johnson, five-time NBA champion, Hall of Famer and founder of the Magic Johnson Foundation to support urban communities, Cecil Watkins, current president and CEO of National Pro-Am City Leagues and developer of inner city projects and activities, and Bob Leonard, a former professional basketball player, current sports commentator and volunteer for over one dozen community groups comprise the impressive list of four Finalists for the inaugural Award.


    The Mannie Jackson - Basketball's Human Spirit Award recipient is given annually to an individual who has found the game of basketball a contributing aspect to their personal growth and accomplishment, a place to develop an understanding of others, and an avenue that helped shape that individual's growth into a recognized visionary leader in the greater community in which they serve.


    Additional criteria for Award candidates include embracing the core values of the game: hard-work, striving to improve and a commitment to others. Beyond the game, candidates must reflect the values of Mannie Jackson's life-long mission to overcome obstacles; challenge the status quo, take responsibility for his or her actions while seeking the highest standard of excellence. Award candidates will be a recognized leader and catalyst for change in their community and an individual who leads by example, demonstrates a philosophy of respectfulness, teamwork, commitment, and human compassion in all aspects of their lives.


    Finalists were chosen from a pool of nominations by a Finalists Selection Committee appointed by the Hall of Fame and Mr. Jackson. The 2007 Award winner will be chosen by a blue ribbon committee comprised of national and international business and community leaders, Hall of Famers and others with significant experience and success in improving communities worldwide.


    ABOUT THE FINALISTS:


    Dikembe Mutombo is a graduate of Georgetown University and a current NBA star who has recorded more than 3,000 career blocks. Of the court, Mutombo has given his time and himself to various causes including the United Nations Development Program. He has opened the Biama Mutombo 300 bed teaching hospital in Zaire, and established the Dikembe Mutombo Foundation for helping youth. Mutombo has also worked with NBA Basketball without Borders. He has received the Essence Magazine Achiever Award for philanthropic work and the Presidential Service Award for his work and contributions.


    Earvin Magic Johnson spent eleven years with the Los Angeles Lakers and was a five-time NBA champion and three-time NBA league MVP. His on court accomplishments also include winning a NCAA Championship and an Olympic Gold medal. Since retiring as a player, he has worked tirelessly on various causes including his own Magic John Foundation to support urban communities. He has also volunteered his time to assist the Make-a-Wish Foundation, United Negro College Fund, Muscular Dystrophy Association, Starlight Foundation, the American Heart Association and the Urban League. He has also developed Magic Johnson Enterprises and Johnson Development Corporation which benefits others.


    Cecil Watkins is the current president and CEO of National Pro-Am City Leagues and is also the NBA's Director of Community and Special Programs. He is a member of the New York City Basketball Hall of Fame. Outside of his work, he is known for developing and managing many inner city projects and activities including acting as the managing partner for the Harlem Tennis Center, NYS Director for International Youth Basketball, and Director of the Metropolitan AAU Basketball. Wilkins has also served on the Mayor's Committee for Physical Fitness and has been involved in inner city amateur events and activities as well as the United States Youth Games. He has received many community service awards including a Citation from the Governor of New York State, the Pepsi-Cola Community Service Award and the Coca-Cola Community Service Award. He has also been recognized by Anheuser-Busch, the New York State Division for Youth and the NY Department of Parks and Recreation and the Boy Scouts of America.


    Bob Leonard played basketball at Indiana University before going on to a professional career on the court for close to 20 years. He is currently the television and radio analyst for the Indiana Pacers. Mr. Leonard has been involved with national charitable programs including the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, American Lung Association and the Arthritis Foundation. His work closer to home includes Big Sisters of Central Indiana, Children's Bureau of Indianapolis, Cincinnati Union Bethel Charity, Double Q Foundation for Youth Diabetes, Christmas Seals Campaign, Governor's Hoosier Heritage Foundation, the Indiana Children's Wish Fund and the Sam Schmidt Paralysis Foundation.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Ignorance is a bliss.

    Let's get Slick in the HOF!

    We need A: all the clippings from the years of his coaching career we can get, preferably digital,
    We need all the stats of the period
    I will setup a website to collect everything over the (Loooooooooooooong weekend) and put some forms plus a "petition" online.

    We need to present this as a huge file if possible in the 10-1 - 12 -2 timeframe mentioned above.

    Let's just get this done.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    RWB I was wondering the same thing when I read that yesterday. It'd be great if we could play a role in getting it done.

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    Default Re: Slick is nominated actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    ...and Bob Leonard, a former professional basketball player, current sports commentator and volunteer for over one dozen community groups comprise the impressive list of four Finalists for the inaugural Award.

    Bob Leonard played basketball at Indiana University before going on to a professional career on the court for close to 20 years. He is currently the television and radio analyst for the Indiana Pacers. Mr. Leonard has been involved with national charitable programs including the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, American Lung Association and the Arthritis Foundation. His work closer to home includes Big Sisters of Central Indiana, Children's Bureau of Indianapolis, Cincinnati Union Bethel Charity, Double Q Foundation for Youth Diabetes, Christmas Seals Campaign, Governor's Hoosier Heritage Foundation, the Indiana Children's Wish Fund and the Sam Schmidt Paralysis Foundation.
    Interesting. Not one mention of his tenure as coach of the Pacers in the ABA, nor their three championships.

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    I'm in. A decent push to raise awareness around the time of the Hall of Fame induction ceremony, spreading the word and getting in touch with as many press members as possible over the summer and fall, with a big push in the winter leading up to the induction ceremony.

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    I'm in, whatever help I can be.


    I say let's start an internet campaign to boycott the BOH until ABA players and coaches are recognized. (I'm about 1/2 serious on this)
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    I didn't realize, but the new ABA has several ties to Indy.

    http://www.abalive.com/office/
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Slick is nominated actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Interesting. Not one mention of his tenure as coach of the Pacers in the ABA, nor their three championships.
    And he didn't just "play basketball at Indiana" he was a key member of a NCAA NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM in 1953.



    we need to help correct this.

    link to his coaching record:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...eonasl01c.html

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    For the life of me I just can't figure out why the NBA continues to ignore the existence of the ABA. Hey NBA, come joint the NFL into the 21st century. I'm also a little surprised former ABA players who became stars in the NBA haven't been a little more proactive in this effort.

    If ever a man gave his heart and soul to a franchise it was Slick. I would imagine to him having his banner hanging in the rafters of Conseco is more than enough for him but he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    For the life of me I just can't figure out why the NBA continues to ignore the existence of the ABA. Hey NBA, come joint the NFL into the 21st century. I'm also a little surprised former ABA players who became stars in the NBA haven't been a little more proactive in this effort.

    If ever a man gave his heart and soul to a franchise it was Slick. I would imagine to him having his banner hanging in the rafters of Conseco is more than enough for him but he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
    Found this item from one of MAL's (aka Hicks) handy links. Look for what's being said in the bold type.



    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html


    Sports-Reference Network Baseball Basketball Football » Features Spotlight: Box Scores Search Player Stats Search Player Search: Basketball-Reference.com
    basketball statistics, analysis, and history

    Hall of Fame Probability Hall of Fame Probability

    Introduction

    What statistics or accomplishments have the Hall of Fame voters deemed to be most important? This question can be answered using a technique called logistic regression. The logistic regression model is a binary response model, where the response is classified as either a "success" (in this case, being elected to the Hall of Fame) or a "failure" (not being elected to the Hall of Fame). One or more predictor variables are selected, and the resulting model can be used to predict the probability of a success given certain values of the predictor(s).

    Building the Model
    For the Hall of Fame problem, I tried to use as many predictor variables as I could think of, but I did not use statistics that have not been kept for most of the NBA's history (e.g., steals, turnovers, and blocks). My player pool consisted of players who had played a minimum of 400 NBA games and had been eligible for at least one Hall of Fame election. After trying numerous models, my final model had seven predictor variables:

    height (in inches)
    last year indicator (1 if 1960 or before, 0 otherwise)
    NBA points per game
    NBA rebounds per game
    NBA assists per game
    NBA All-Star game selections
    NBA championships won

    All of the predictors listed above were significant at the 0.01 level. Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients. ABA statistics, honors, and championships were not important predictors of Hall of Fame status, which is why I only used NBA statistics in my final model. I don't like ignoring the ABA statistics, but that's what the voters have apparently done. Keep in mind that my goal was not to determine who should be in the HAll of Fame, but rather who is likely to be in the Hall of Fame.

    The table below gives the parameter estimates of the coefficients for each of the seven predictors:

    height -0.2055
    last year indicator 3.8267
    NBA points per game 0.4283
    NBA rebounds per game 0.4130
    NBA assists per game 0.4664
    NBA All-Star game selections 0.5342
    NBA championships won 1.0427

    Example
    The parameter estimates given in the previous section can be used to obtain the predicted probability of Hall of Fame election for a particular player. I will go through an example using Adrian Dantley. Find the values of the seven predictor variables for Dantley, multiply them by the coefficients given in the table above, and find the sum of the products:

    height -0.2055 * 77 = -15.8235
    last year indicator 3.8267 * 0 = 0
    NBA points per game 0.4283 * 24.3 = 10.40769
    NBA rebounds per game 0.4130 * 5.7 = 2.3541
    NBA assists per game 0.4664 * 3.0 = 1.3992
    NBA All-Star game selections 0.5342 * 6 = 3.2052
    NBA championships won 1.0427 * 0 = 0
    ---------
    1.54269

    To find the predicted probability of Hall of Fame election, do the following:

    P(HoF election) = e^1.54269 / (1 + e^1.54269)
    = 0.82

    Based on Adrian Dantley's statistics and accomplishments, the probability that he has been elected to the Hall of Fame is 0.82.

    Summary

    Hall of Fame probabilities are presented for all players with a minimum of 400 NBA games played. Although it can be risky to make predictions for active players, you can think of these probabilities as answering the question "If this player retired today, what is the probability he would be elected to the Hall of Fame?". The model was built using a pool of 600 players. To assess classification accuracy, the jackknife method was used. To implement this method, each observation is temporarily held out and the selected model is fit to the remaining cases. This leads to an estimated HoF probability for the case, which is compared to the actual result. Of the 600 players, 75 had been elected to the Hall of Fame and 525 had not. If the player's predicted probability of election using the jackknife method was greater than or equal to 0.5, I predicted he was in the Hall of Fame. Of the 75 players in the Hall of Fame, 61 were correctly classified (81.33%) and 14 were not (18.67%). Of the 525 players not in the Hall of Fame, 512 were correctly classified (97.52%) and 13 were not (2.48%). Overall, 573 of the 600 players (95.5%) were correctly classified by the model using the jackknife method.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Like where did some of THEIR HOFers come from!?!?!
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    This from the HOF website:

    Located in Springfield, Massachusetts, the birthplace of basketball, the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame promotes and preserves the game of basketball at every level worldwide - professional, collegiate, men and women. For more information, please visit our website at www.hoophall.com or call 1-877-4-HOOPLA.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    This from the HOF website:

    Located in Springfield, Massachusetts, the birthplace of basketball, the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame promotes and preserves the game of basketball at every level worldwide -
    Maybe I believe in too many conspiracy theories, but I also believe the ABA didn't get any respect from the HOF because of Red Auerbach's down the road influence with the Boston media. Can't forget this dumb comment by the legendary Red.

    http://www.remembertheaba.com/Tribut...l/Leonard.html

    In 1975 the war of words between the ABA and the NBA was heating up. In a quote that appeared in Sports Illustrated, the Celtics' Red Auerbach said that Pacers' coach Slick Leonard was a "bad coach when he was with Baltimore in the NBA and he must be a dog now too." Auerbach also said that "Julius Erving is nice kid but not a great player." In January 1976, Dan Pattison interviewed Leonard to get his reaction to Auerbach's comments.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Just to fill you in on some of the things I've learned through some of the statistical analysis/history circles:

    The APBR (Association for Professional Basketball Research) will be holding a meeting in Las Vegas to determine their actions going forward when it comes to measuring and suggesting Hall-worthy candidates. This meeting is scheduled to coincide with the NBA pension/old-timers meeting also scheduled in Vegas.

    The APBR is trying to establish itself as a historical repository and association in much the same way that SABR has for baseball. There is a number crunching group associated with APBR that is very similar to the SABRmetrics/Money Ball movement started by Bill James.

    It has become apparent to many in the community that the Hall is somewhat 'broken' because it tries to represent a very diverese list of inductees: players, coaches and contributors from the international, modern professional, old professional, collegiate, and women's ranks.

    I'm not trying to discourage anyone here, but there is a lot of difficulty associated with proposing a candidate for induction. First, you can document items and send them to the hall, but everything is screened by the research staff and condensed into a resume of no more than three pages. Second, the reserach staff is under no obligation to forward this information on to the committee or to even look at it. Third, the committees are anonymous and often represent the old-school interests of the original NBA teams, in particular, the Knicks, Lakers, and Celtics. Fourth, even if a candidate moves through the committee, they are often tied up in the general induction process when candidates from all of the committees are pooled together. People aren't well-versed in all of the candidates and it becomes nearly impossible to differentiate between a Spanish coach, a female collegian, and an ABA coach, for example.

    The only point in the process where you guys have any direct influence is obstacle one above. I would suggest two things:

    1-make a resume for Leonard and document/footnote everything in it do as much of the work for the researchers as possible. Present every aspect of his career. Address his deficiencies and strengths equally and put him in a historical context at his retirement as well as today. For example:

    -Currently ranks 22nd all time in combined ABA/NBA career victories, ahead of hall of fame coaches Bill Sharman, John Kundla, etc.
    -At retirement, ranked behind only Red Auberbach, Red Holzman, and Alex Hannum in career victories.
    -At retirement, ranked behind only Red Auerbach for career playoff victories.
    -His career playoff winning percentage of .596 places him ahead of hall of famers Red Auerbach, etc.
    -Compare his 3 professional championships and 5 finals appearances with guys like Holzman, Hannum, and Bill Sharman who are his contemporaries and already in.
    -Try to find quotes from Hannum and Sharman, both of these guys are in, both respected the ABA and Slick, and both had success in the ABA and NBA. The Hall doesn't take letters of rec. Hannum is dead anyway, but recs are looked at as lobbying. A quote/comment from history doesn't necessarily constitute lobbying.

    2-This point depends upon how ambitious you guys want to be about pursuing this. Try to get others outside of PD involved. I think you need to promote Gilmore and Slick together to draw more people in. Shop it to the 3 other former ABA fanbases in the NBA, and some of the former markets like Utah, Dallas, Louisville, and Carolina. The only way to get pub to the voters is through press in multiple cities.

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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    Maybe I believe in too many conspiracy theories, but I also believe the ABA didn't get any respect from the HOF because of the Red Auerbach's down the road influence with the Boston media. Can't forget this dumb comment by the legendary Red.

    http://www.remembertheaba.com/Tribut...l/Leonard.html

    In 1975 the war of words between the ABA and the NBA was heating up. In a quote that appeared in Sports Illustrated, the Celtics' Red Auerbach said that Pacers' coach Slick Leonard was a "bad coach when he was with Baltimore in the NBA and he must be a dog now too." Auerbach also said that "Julius Erving is nice kid but not a great player." In January 1976, Dan Pattison interviewed Leonard to get his reaction to Auerbach's comments.
    I always hoped Red would die a slow, painful death so that I could send a bunch of dead roses to his family "courtesy of Slick Leonard's fans" while he was on his deathbed. Too bad he went quickly.

    Reason #1 why I despise the Green Guys more than any team in the league.

    I know, I know, I should tell you how I really feel about things. Not pull any punches. Whatever...

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    By the way, Slick's comments were:

    "I had an expansion team in Baltimore and Auerbach was sitting in Boston with a monster," Slick pointed out. "I've been at odds with him for a long time. I never put him on a pedestal like others. I took a team of rookie players and battled his championship club to four or five point games.

    "Ask Kevin Loughery (New York Nets coach) and Rod Thorn (Spirits of St. Louis coach), they were my backcourt. Check Auerbach's record before the Bill Russell era. He never won a championship. The one thing about him is what one guy said to me quite a while ago: 'He's got the biggest mouth and the strongest hands in the NBA. He held onto Russell's jersey for 13 years.'

    "He can say all he wants but he was no tactician. He ran a low post with Russell -- that wasn't hard to figure out -- a fast break and with those guys (Bill Sharman, Bob Cousy, K.C. Jones, and Sam Jones) put a little pressure on the ball. There was nothing tactical from him. His comments are so ridiculous.

    "The point I'm trying to make is if you can coach, fine. It still takes talent to win. There are no geniuses in this business. There are some better than others. I always considered Red Holzman (New York Knicks coach) a great coach, but he's under a different situation without Willis Reed or Dave DeBusschere. The same with Larry Costello at Milwaukee without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Oscar Robertson."
    And look up there at that last paragraph, especially those of you that over-rate Rick Carlisle... just as Slick says, an average coach with talented players will look better than a "great" coach with average players.

    After Riley, JVG, Sloan and perhaps the perpetually overrated Phil Jackson (who looks mortal now), there's a lot of coaches that are interchangeable. And Rick is one of them. (and so is the overrated-on-here Avery Johnson.) The realistic answer is that he's in the middle of tight pack that ranges from #5 and #25. Clearly ahead of the Terry Stots' and Brian Hill's of the league. But not the others.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #19
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    I've always thought Jackson was overrated. Looking more and more like he can't pull off championships with just one superstar - he needs two (i.e. Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe). But then again, he's just laughed all the way to the bank.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  20. #20
    Member RWB's Avatar
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    Default Re: HEY ABADays

    Star article from April 1 talking about the difficulty of getting ABA players in the HOF.


    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04

    I think it was ABADays (?) who mentioned Pat Cosgrove before trying to get something done. ABA, ddn't you know this guy?
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  21. #21
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Ok for now I registered 2 domains, which should help us on our way

    www.slickinbhof.com and www.abaintohof.com


    I will try and set up a "quicky" site for both, but need a lot of stuff from people, I will also ask permission from other sites that are abot the ABA to share data and files.

    Anyone any good at making websites, now's the time to step up, as I have little time for it.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  22. #22

    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    While I don't know about permisions to use materail from other sites, you guys should consider making a wiki. That way anyone could contribute, and you wouldn't need a web designer. This would be a good first step to at least collect the information. Then the wiki could become a kind of scratch pad for the web page that Able is hosting.

    http://www.wik.is/

    I've been using this site for a while now, and find it very easy.

    Instead of Making a web page, you just make pages. YOu can put photos, etc. It's kind of a mix between a community Blog and a web page.

    No, no, I don't work for the company. Just thought it makes sense for what you are trying to do.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Here's an intersting one to look at, but it's just a start

    http://mrkeatley.wik.is/Home

  24. #24
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    I can setup a complete tiki-wiki whenever anyone wants that, in fact there are several running, just depends on what most here want i guess
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Can PD be a catalyst for Slick Leonard

    Recently I'd been thinking (but not talking obviously) that it would be cool if we started a PD wiki for info on past Pacers players, teams, and coaches. I picture like, for instance, there'd be a Mark Jackson page with some photoes, stats, bio, links, etc. You could have one on the 2000 Finals team, the '94 team, etc, etc. I think that'd be kind of fun, actually. We'd just need to limit it to registered PD members who can edit the pages to keep it from getting messy by outsiders and I think that'd be pretty fun.

    How do you all feel about that idea?

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