View Poll Results: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

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  • Donnie Walsh

    27 24.11%
  • Larry Bird

    33 29.46%
  • Rick Carlise

    72 64.29%
  • Johnny Davis

    53 47.32%
  • Dan Burke

    40 35.71%
  • Chad Forcier

    41 36.61%
  • Leonard Perry

    38 33.93%
  • Chuck Person

    42 37.50%
  • Jermaine O'Neal

    52 46.43%
  • Jeff Foster

    23 20.54%
  • David Harrison

    57 50.89%
  • Ike Diogu

    5 4.46%
  • Troy Nurphy

    37 33.04%
  • Maceo Baston

    14 12.50%
  • Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    25 22.32%
  • Shawne Williams

    6 5.36%
  • Danny Granger

    7 6.25%
  • Marquis Daniels

    22 19.64%
  • Rawle Marshall

    29 25.89%
  • Jamaal Tinsley

    81 72.32%
  • Darrell Armstrong

    22 19.64%
  • Keith McLeod

    59 52.68%
  • Orien Green

    39 34.82%
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Thread: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

  1. #26
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    I don't care if Churck is still here next year, but I don't want to see him in the same role.

    -Bball
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  2. #27
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    I'd rather he go back to the front office to learn the ropes from Donnie. That was the original plan, before the over-hyped team savior from French Lick blew back into town.

    F'ing Celtic.

    Although, I'm sure Chuck learned some things on the bench that will help him in his career in the front office some day.

    And his individual coaching success, prior to this season, was impressive.

    Still, could a perfect coach with Bob Knight's brain and Pat Riley's inspiration and Mike Brown's personality get this unit to play decent defense? I doubt it.

    Our lack of having a single healthy SG on the roster is a bigger problem on defense than offense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  3. #28
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Well since it's who SHOULD be gone, I voted Donnie, Rick, Chuck and all of our point guards.

    I respect Donnie tremendously. But I think it's time to see how Larry would run without the restraints.

    I also think that Rick's time in Indiana is done, but pretty much everyone thinks that anymore. He's one of the best coaches in the NBA, he's just not right for rebuilding.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  4. #29
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    I see Jay want to rid us of Williams, Marshal AND Granger but wants to keep Harrison and Tinsley.

    Sorry Jay, I can't help but point that out.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  5. #30
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    HA! I didn't know it was a multiple choice poll!! I was thinking... man, a lot of people came out to vote for this one!!

  6. #31

    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    I might change my username to Nurphy.

  7. #32
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I see Jay want to rid us of Williams, Marshal AND Granger but wants to keep Harrison and Tinsley.

    Sorry Jay, I can't help but point that out.
    I am utterly unimpressed with Marshall.

    Granger is going to be the piece we have to give up to get a new backcourt. I don't want to lose him but with Dunleavy here (and Dunleavy doesn't have much trade value but is a legit starting NBA SF), he's the guy with trade value at the position where we have too much depth.

    I still think Williams is a couple years away and likely won't be with the Pacers when he breaks through, so I don't have any hopes invested in him.

    I'd still like to see Tinsley with a different coach and I'd like to see Harrison put some weight back on and have a legit big-man coach to mentor him. Of couse I've been saying that for how many months now?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #33
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Regarding Harrison -

    I think you've been saying that for years. At least I have.

    But, I also believe that it is primarily the player's responsibility for improving. Harrison has done nothing the last few off-seasons to bring his game to an NBA level, he has done nothing to improve his temper and he has done nothing to stabilize his body or his health.

    I'm done with him.

    Not in a million years do I think moving Granger is necessary to improve the backcourt. That view is a bit ... narrow? closed? unimaginative? I'm trying to get a word that doesn't sound insulting, because I really don't mean any disrespect. I think you're throwing all of our young swingmen away because you don't want to consider other possibilities.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  9. #34
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Regarding Harrison -

    I think you've been saying that for years. At least I have.

    But, I also believe that it is primarily the player's responsibility for improving. Harrison has done nothing the last few off-seasons to bring his game to an NBA level, he has done nothing to improve his temper and he has done nothing to stabilize his body or his health.

    I'm done with him.
    Have you not seen him this season, Mr. Greenfeld? To say he's done nothing to improve himself after dropping so much weight doesn't seem fair.

    I wouldn't give up on such an athletic young big man this soon.

    If only we could somehow attach Ike's arms to his body.....
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  10. #35
    Member Frank Slade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I see Jay want to rid us of Williams, Marshal AND Granger but wants to keep Harrison and Tinsley.

    Sorry Jay, I can't help but point that out.
    Ike, Granger, Williams the three names that will probably keep a number of fans (right or wrong) from turning in their season tix.

    Why Not Us ?


  11. #36
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Have you not seen him this season, Mr. Greenfield? To say he's done nothing to improve himself after dropping so much weight doesn't seem fair.

    I wouldn't give up on such an athletic young big man this soon.

    If only we could somehow attach Ike's arms to his body.....
    It's very hard to see a player who doesn't play on TV. I have heard that he's lost weight, And I did see his first appearance in months in person against the Clippers.

    I don't care how heavy he is, in fact I like weight on his frame. It's what he does with his hands, his feet and his attitude that are the big concerns for me, and where I note very little improvement over 3 seasons.

    EDIT: please note that I did NOT vote to ditch DH.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  12. #37
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    We presumably need two starters in the backcourt, and we have to attach Tinsley to the deal somehow.

    To get value you have to give value.

    Whom else do we have with trade value?

    Lastly, I don't consider Granger, Dunleavy, or Williams to be swingmen. They are all natural Fs, and none of them are particuarly good at playing SG. That's a logjam.

    If we don't have to throw in Williams to the trade to sweeten the pot, that's fine. I don't really care either way.

    I can't see Marshall being invited to training camp next year, IMO he's not much more than roster filler.

    I'm okay with the team taking a risk on trading Granger in order to fix the backcourt. Sure, I think Danny is going to grow into being a player I love for years, but we're seeing right now that our current backcourt is a long way from being respectable, especially defensively.

    If I thought trading Dunleavy could get us a new starting backcourt, I'd be okay with that, too.

    The team may need to make other trades, but it can't keep Granger/Dunleavy/Williams and no legit SG.

    (Even if Marquis Daniels is the starting SG of the future, we still need a capable backup.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #38
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    What a difference five hours makes.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  14. #39
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    OK - I don't want to rub it in.

    Out of the 40 some-odd people who answered this poll in a selective manner (sorry btown, but voting for everyone may be funny, but doesn't count in the least) I "called out" Jay. In a poll like this, with so many variables, it is kind of unfair to pick on you, Jay. I'm sorry for that.

    Our opponent is still trying to claw out of expansion team hell, so again we don't have the most fair barometer to judge things by.

    But I'll say this - If you trade a guy who can score 32 points on a rookie contract, you either have one hell of an offer or a serious need for psychiatric care.

    These guys are all "according to Hoyle" swingmen: they play the perimeter with rare-to-occasional post play but NEVER assume the roll of point.

    Granger is more valuable to the future of this franchise than Tinsley. He is also be more valuable in trade, which I think is what Jay is ultimately getting at. There's a cliche that comes to mind: "don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  15. #40
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    We're overstocked at one postion, so we need to trade from a position of strength.

    Dunleavy can play ball but has a horrible contract that makes it impossible to use him as the "showcase" player in a trade.

    Danny can play and has trade value in excess of his contract - we'd have to throw in salary filler (Tinsley, Foster, Harrison, Murphy, whatever) to match.

    Williams has yet to prove he's going to be worth more or less than his rookie contract - not the type of player you can replace your starting backcourt with.

    Marshall is veteran-minimum filler.

    Daniels is a wild card, but post-trade, our success rate with and without him is quite compelling - he's an important part of this team's future.

    I don't "want" to trade Danny. But I don't want to overrate him, and not trade him, if that's what it takes to fix the backcourt. Which continues to be a problem, especially since Dunleavy is way out of position at SG.

    "Swingman" to me means that the player can switch ("swing") between G and F. Those guys can't, although we keep trying to convince ourselves that Dunleavy can. (Hint, he can't.) Granted, the term made a bit more sense when F's played on the baseline and G's played on the wing and it was meant to describe a player that could swing along the sideline to either position...

    "Swingman" and "perimeter player" are not synonyms. These guys might be "perimeter players" but can't play guard. They can't defend guards consistently. They don't handle the ball *that* well (we call Dunn the SG because he is somewhat capable of handling the ball - I'd like to never see Granger get trapped in the backcourt ever again after tonight.) Etc.

    PS - I don't care if you call me out. I know you know that. If I wanted eveyone to say "I agree" and not challenge me, I wouldn't take positions that are out on the edge like I do.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
    Never Give Up aero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Jeff Foster, Marquis Daniels, Keith McLeod and Orien Green. I should have also included David Harrison but forgot to some how...anyway thats who i feel should be gone...maybe Tinsley too...cant believe i forgot him....yep thats who i pick. My picks were based mainly on injures.
    If you havin' depth problems, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but a bench ain't one! - Hicks
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  17. #42
    The Future Is Bright JB's Breakout Year's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    We're overstocked at one postion, so we need to trade from a position of strength.

    Danny can play and has trade value in excess of his contract - we'd have to throw in salary filler (Tinsley, Foster, Harrison, Murphy, whatever) to match.

    I don't "want" to trade Danny. But I don't want to overrate him, and not trade him, if that's what it takes to fix the backcourt. Which continues to be a problem, especially since Dunleavy is way out of position at SG.


    PS - I don't care if you call me out. I know you know that. If I wanted eveyone to say "I agree" and not challenge me, I wouldn't take positions that are out on the edge like I do.
    I don't know that you're really as far "out on the edge" as you imagine yourself to be.

    I also don't know why you'd want to trade Danny, a productive player on a rookie contract and a fan favorite, as the remedy for our backcourt.

    JO is our most overpaid player, and the player most likely to bring us back a difference-maker at SG or PG. Plus, we wouldn't be subjected to his "Well, I'm going to have to have a conference with Donnie and Larry at the end of the year to talk about whether this group gives me a chance to win a championship" nonsense anymore.

  18. #43
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    FYI, my vote wasn't meant to be funny. I really do want as much change as possible.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Donnie Walsh should go first

    I think the reason Larry wants Donnie to stay is because of the "technical stuff" ( Salary cap.....etc)

    I think David Morway can handle that.

  20. #45
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    I don't know that you're really as far "out on the edge" as you imagine yourself to be.
    Maybe, maybe not. I probably agree with 80% of what I type on here. Sometimes, the contrarian in me just can't resist taking certain positions when the popular sentiment has moved too far in a particular direction.

    I also don't know why you'd want to trade Danny, a productive player on a rookie contract and a fan favorite, as the remedy for our backcourt.
    I don't "want" to trade Danny. I like Danny. I happen to think that's the best move, though.

    JO is our most overpaid player, and the player most likely to bring us back a difference-maker at SG or PG. Plus, we wouldn't be subjected to his "Well, I'm going to have to have a conference with Donnie and Larry at the end of the year to talk about whether this group gives me a chance to win a championship" nonsense anymore.
    If we trade JO for a "difference maker" in the backcourt, and have a big gap at PF, this is a 20-30 win team for a number of years unless Ike pans out to be a top-five PF. And I like Ike, but he's too small to reach top-five PF, IMO.

    If we trade JO for backcourt help, we need to get a franchise player in return. I don't see that happening, unless you're going to say trading JO for Ray Allen puts us in a championship window over the next 1-2 seasons.

    Does anybody believe that a JO for KG straight-up, or a JO for Gasol straight-up, or a JO for Dirk straight-up would make either team better or worse? Ignore injury concerns for just a minute - at a talent level, the difference among those four is not very wide.

    The only scenario in which trading JO makes any sense to the Pacers is if JO requests one.

    And to JO's credit - he's been here with some looney players, serious disruptions, etc. endured a variety of criticism for things out of his control, and yet he's maintained a very high level of professionalism, charitable involvement, etc.

    The day JO leaves this franchise will be a very, very sad day in its history.

    Having said that, if he makes another lazy cross-court pass out of a double team I may strangle him with my own bare hands. But that's not the point...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  21. #46
    The Future Is Bright JB's Breakout Year's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    JO seems like a good enough guy. He's an articulate face of the franchise. And you're right, every team should be so lucky to have someone like that. I can't speak to whether he does more or less charity than other players around the league. My guess is that he does about the same as a lot of other guys, but that's just a guess. Either way, compared to a lot of knuckleheads, you don't feel embarrassed he's your best player (see Portland).

    But one of the things you see when he's out, like against San Antonio this week, is that post play is just a part of the game plan. With JO, it dominates our approach to the point of "Stop JO, stop the Pacers."

    To me, Ike doesn't need to be top 5; he's already skilled and productive and only going to get better. We could be a good team with him as our starter (of course depending on who else is in the mix).

    While he's had to put up with the disruptions you mentioned, JO has caused his own disruptions, including the sense that there is him, and then there is the rest of the team.

    If we traded JO, we'd have to find another franchise player, but not necessarily at PF. Even though Granger is my favorite Pacer, I don't kid myself into thinking he's there-maybe someday, maybe not. Clearly JO is more talented and productive. But maybe you trade him for somebody at that level that's a better fit, maybe you draft that guy with a pick you get from trading him. Either way, JO's cap number and impact on the W-L column don't jibe with making the significant changes this team needs.

  22. #47
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    While he's had to put up with the disruptions you mentioned, JO has caused his own disruptions, including the sense that there is him, and then there is the rest of the team.

    I get the impression that is only true in internet-message-board-land. I'm not sure the team itself feels that way. I could be wrong.

    If anything, the team acts like they depend on him more than they should. By that I mean the coaches and the rest of the players collectively expect JO to get the job done singlehandedly, which isn't reasonable.

    Isiah, for all his coaching flaws, put JO on the map. IMO, JO was even better during Isiah's last season than the next year when he got a bunch of MVP votes. It has - admittedly - been downhill ever since. I can't wait to see how he rebounds with a new coach, a more team-oriented system, etc. And if he rebounds the way I expect him to, he better be wearing blue-and-gold or we're gonna have some serious regrets.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #48
    The Future Is Bright JB's Breakout Year's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    I get the impression that is only true in internet-message-board-land. I'm not sure the team itself feels that way. I could be wrong.

    If anything, the team acts like they depend on him more than they should. By that I mean the coaches and the rest of the players collectively expect JO to get the job done singlehandedly, which isn't reasonable.

    Isiah, for all his coaching flaws, put JO on the map. IMO, JO was even better during Isiah's last season than the next year when he got a bunch of MVP votes. It has - admittedly - been downhill ever since. I can't wait to see how he rebounds with a new coach, a more team-oriented system, etc. And if he rebounds the way I expect him to, he better be wearing blue-and-gold or we're gonna have some serious regrets.
    Interesting perspective on the situation-I hadn't considered it that way.

    There seems to pretty much be a code that players and coaches don't say too much about what goes on in the locker room. That's the way it should be, I guess. You just get vague stuff like AJ saying there's something wrong with "the culture" or Pollard saying they're all good guys but a "bad mix."

  24. #49
    Member LG33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who should be gone by the start of the 07-08 season?

    I'd rather be bad with Danny than mediocre without him.

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