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Thread: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Carlisle should not coach the Nets, no matter what the Nets look like next year.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    I'd take Carlisle over any name on that list other than Iavaroni.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Michael Cooper has a strong winning record and really seems to motivate his players. I would recommend giving him a shot instead of recycling deadwood from some other losing system.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    So, ahem.... I wouldn't mind having Lawrence Frank as our new head coach ... IF New Jersey is indeed looking for another coach... why not swap 'em? .
    why would we want frank if he can't seem to achieve a significantly better winning percentage with Kidd, Jefferson and Carter than our team with a one-legged O'Neal and change? right now the nets are 34-39 (.466) and the pacers are 32-41 (.438) and the pacers have been doing it without O'Neal for some games, Quis for weeks, a terrible PG situation and relying on a bunch of role players to lead the team. i think his team is coasting on talent alone, not any type of coaching genius.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    why would we want frank if he can't seem to achieve a significantly better winning percentage with Kidd, Jefferson and Carter than our team with a one-legged O'Neal and change? right now the nets are 34-39 (.466) and the pacers are 32-41 (.438) and the pacers have been doing it without O'Neal for some games, Quis for weeks, a terrible PG situation and relying on a bunch of role players to lead the team. i think his team is coasting on talent alone, not any type of coaching genius.
    Oh, the Nets have been underachieving this year, no doubt.

    They are pretty pathetic inside though even though Moore's emergence has helped them off set that a little. Jefferson has been out a long part of the season and Carter is awfull defensively. Kidd is great, but getting older now. Still great stat-lines though. Virtually no bench.

    Either way, I still think Frank has done a good job in a franchise that has had a lot of uncertainty and instability since he took over the job from Byron Scott.

    Like I said the Nets haven't been doing very well this season. Some of it can be explained, some cannot. Given their recent history I refuse to just simply blame the coach. If you take away this season he has done a good job IMO.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    why would we want frank if he can't seem to achieve a significantly better winning percentage with Kidd, Jefferson and Carter than our team with a one-legged O'Neal and change? right now the nets are 34-39 (.466) and the pacers are 32-41 (.438) and the pacers have been doing it without O'Neal for some games, Quis for weeks, a terrible PG situation and relying on a bunch of role players to lead the team. i think his team is coasting on talent alone, not any type of coaching genius.
    I agree.

    That's the problem with all of this, few of the other coaches are proven at all, most that have been HC are going to be on the market for a reason. Mitchell I'm not sold on, but at least his team is currently winning.


    Think about this, the Pacers brought in Rick because he had just turned around the Pistons IN ONE SEASON, won Coach of the Year, won back to back titles of the Pacers own division, had back to back 50 win seasons and had taken a team that missed the playoffs to the 2nd round and then the conference finals in successive years.

    Now read me the resumes of these great coaches that are going to fix this situation? Cripes BIRD has a better resume than the list of candidates...of course he had someone helping get that, what was his name again?


    RC gets defended not because we are homers (as Jay often suggests) but because he's got scoreboard on all these other coaches.


    When Pop, Phil, Skiles, JVGundy (maybe even Stan), and a few others like that start getting named, then I'll listen. But who in the world would think it was smart for Houston to say "well, we keep finishing behind SA, DAL, PHX, etc and even had a bad year last year when injuries took over, let's fire Jeff so we can get Cooper in here"?

    Maybe Utah should have dumped Sloan when it was "clear" that he couldn't win without Stockon/Malone to carry him.


    I even have interest in what Cooper might do, but he's still a big risk. I think Frank is a decent coach too, but no more than Rick. He's got IDENTICAL problems, more so in fact because he can't really blame it on not having Kidd, Vince and Jefferson as much as the Pacers have been without their top guys.

    The Nets didn't stir up the chemistry with a deal moving Vince, Jefferson and Kristic for Crawford, Curry, and Nate Robinson or something.




    Grass sure looks green from over here. We should get some of that stuff. What is it, bluegrass? Got some kinda turfbuilder working on it or something?



    I only buy the "maybe just freshen it up" view, and that means taking the hard pill of seeing RC do well elsewhere while MAYBE this team does more than they previously have. Remember how well it was working for Detroit till Sheed showed up? The Pacers were no threat to Detroit till they handed us Rick on a platter.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    mourning...i can't remember where you stand on the "RICK CARLISLE: Good Coach or Burden to Pacer Nation" debate but the exact same can be said about rick except that this year has been hurt by injuries to o'neal and quis as well as a lack of talent. i'd be willing to bet if you gave rick the same nets team, they would be in the playoffs without question. i also think you gave rick a PG like kidd but maintained the rest of the injury problems the pacers have had, i think the pacers would be in the playoffs.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    BTW, I'm pretty sure Jay (and maybe others) have said that Jeff Van Gundy is a great candidate if only the Pacers could get him.

    His win total last year = 34. Read it again.

    Now this, Rick's LOWEST win total ever = the 32 he has going right now, and seems to be in reach of 34.


    Jeff had TMac for 47 games, Yao for 57. Still only won 34. How many did RC win last year with Tins and JO missing MORE time than that...or the fact that the 2nd best Pacer to list in comparison to TMac being out is Tinsley in the first place?

    Why do all these other coaches get their crap years easily overlooked, but RC's worst year is a true disaster. At least he didn't say that the league is rigged and almost get booted out by Stern for doing so.


    BTW, a note on Frank, he took over and the Nets went on that big winning streak. After it ended they had a losing record the rest of the way with him. The next year he was 42-40. This was a team just slightly removed from back to back FINALS appearances. He had one great year, last year and he was in danger of getting beat by a team led by Anthony Johnson...coached by RC.


    George Karl has AI AND MELO. Currently .500. And how about that "control" he had on his team in NYC? Yep, the Indy issues are all on Rick, but when players for other teams act the fool (and this happens nearly every day in some capacity) it's all about the players themselves.

    Karl has only had one 50 (52) win season since back in Seattle when he had a prime Gary Payton on his team and a decent Kemp, and his 52 win team had RayRay, 22 ppg Big Dog and Cassell on it. His only other great year was when he took over mid-year in Denver, an incredible 32-8, but the following year was down to 44 wins and then this year he's down to .500.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    mourning...i can't remember where you stand on the "RICK CARLISLE: Good Coach or Burden to Pacer Nation" debate but the exact same can be said about rick except that this year has been hurt by injuries to o'neal and quis as well as a lack of talent. i'd be willing to bet if you gave rick the same nets team, they would be in the playoffs without question. i also think you gave rick a PG like kidd but maintained the rest of the injury problems the pacers have had, i think the pacers would be in the playoffs.
    I have backed Rick ever since he has been here. I have only once made it clear that he probably should be gone at season's end. Not because he's a bad coach, but because the team just doesn't seem to be responding to him and I AM doubting his people skills. And even after that post I have since been doubting what we should do...

    I am not a part of the "kick Rick to the curve"-crowd.

    I am part of the "kick Jamaal to the curve"-crowd though. Strange as he was my favorite player just two seasons ago.


    PS: forgot to mention the Nets also lost Krstic early in the season for the whole season.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I have backed Rick ever since he has been here. I have only once made it clear that he probably should be gone at season's end. Not because he's a bad coach, but because the team just doesn't seem to be responding to him and I AM doubting his people skills. And even after that post I have since been doubting what we should do...

    I am not a part of the "kick Rick to the curve"-crowd.

    I am part of the "kick Jamaal to the curve"-crowd though. Strange as he was my favorite player just two seasons ago.


    PS: forgot to mention the Nets also lost Krstic early in the season for the whole season.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    true about krstic but they also had mikki moore emerge so in my mind i sorta cancelled the two out.

    thats the thing about jamaal, as he showed against the spurs and a few other times this year, he is tremendously talented. which makes it all the more frustrating when he spends the other 83.5% of the games he is available for (just conjecture, not a real stat) playing horrific. i just hope he has a little bit of trade value left so we don't have to take scraps for him.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Grass sure looks green from over here. We should get some of that stuff. What is it, bluegrass? Got some kinda turfbuilder working on it or something?
    Not only does the grass look better in other yards, I can remember when ours was one of the best on the block. Now it's real brown in a lot of places, and there's a bunch of crabgrass over there.

    Damned thing is that the guy who could be making it look better does the same thing to it over and over. Can't he treat it with something else for a change? I mean, even if it means it looks crappy this year, couldn't he plant something new to look forward to next season, I mean, year?

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    BTW, I'm pretty sure Jay (and maybe others) have said that Jeff Van Gundy is a great candidate if only the Pacers could get him.

    His win total last year = 34. Read it again.

    Now this, Rick's LOWEST win total ever = the 32 he has going right now, and seems to be in reach of 34.
    So last year makes him an average coach?

    The JVG I watched all the time in New York is the guy I WANT coaching the Pacers.

    Its true with nearly every NBA coach - give them good players and they look like geniouses. Give them average players, they don't look like geniouses.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    Not only does the grass look better in other yards, I can remember when ours was one of the best on the block. Now it's real brown in a lot of places, and there's a bunch of crabgrass over there.

    Damned thing is that the guy who could be making it look better does the same thing to it over and over. Can't he treat it with something else for a change? I mean, even if it means it looks crappy this year, couldn't he plant something new to look forward to next season, I mean, year?
    Because TPTB turned off the freaking water. Now RC has to go out and do a rain dance every day just to keep it this alive. BTW, that noisy lawnmower? We traded it for hand clippers, too many people were complaining.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    So last year makes him an average coach?

    The JVG I watched all the time in New York is the guy I WANT coaching the Pacers.

    Its true with nearly every NBA coach - give them good players and they look like geniouses. Give them average players, they don't look like geniouses.
    So this year makes Rick an average coach?

    The Rick Carlise I saw placing top 5 in Coach of the Year voting his first 4 seasons (ahead of Larry Brown every single one of them), winning 50+ games and divsion titles his first 3 seasons, winning more regular season games than any Pacers coach ever, and a guy that made the SECOND round of the playoffs his first 4 years, even the year when his #2 player was suspended for 70 games plus the playoffs, that's the guy I want coaching them.


    And I'm a JVG fan and would have loved to have him here, I just think RC is as strong and catches crap from posters like you even as you give Jeff a free pass.

    Why? Why is this year a sign of how bad Rick is but last year wasn't an identical sign for Jeff? Don't say injuries or roster changes or any of that because that's the only thing Rick has seen in the last 3 seasons and he only went sub-500 once along the way.

    Sloan even had a season well below 500. And what's his claim to fame, winning 60, losing in the Finals with "only" 2 of the 50 greatest players ever on his roster. Man, that musta been tough finding a way to overcome the restrictions of Stockton and Malone, they sucked. [/sarcasm]

    2002 Utah Jazz 82 44 38 .537 1 3
    2003 Utah Jazz 82 47 35 .573 1 4
    2004 Utah Jazz 82 42 40 .512 -- --
    2005 Utah Jazz 82 26 56 .317 -- --

    Is it just me or does that trend look familiar? What in the world was Utah thinking by not pulling the trigger on Sloan after 2005? He clearly had lost the team.


    What's wrong with me asking you to use the SAME standard when judging RC as a coach as JVG? Do you think it was a mistake to keep Jeff in Houston? Was it smart for NY to get rid of him?

    Yet you want the Pacers to make that exact choice, fire a guy with just as much success as JVG.

    BTW, what was that NBA incident that was so famous for players being out of control before the brawl happened? Man bites dog rings a bell. But in no way did that reflect on his ability to coach players and instill good behavior in them. They's just whack, nothing Jeff could do there.

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    Default Re: Vescey on Rick and other possible coaches being fired

    Wait... NY didn't get rid of Jeff. He quit.

    If I were in Houston, I might be frustrated that he hasn't delivered better. There have been reasons for it - injuries, a roster that hasn't been as good as advertised, whatever, but he hasn't lost the team.

    One thing is true about both Jeff and Rick - they've always had good players and usually good teams to work with. So everyone just assumes they are better than some of the guys around the league with lesser reputations. I'm not talking about Terry Stots, Lon Kruger, and Mike Montgomery. I'm talking about the young generation of NBA coaches that have paid their dues as NBA assistants. Wittman, Woodson, Mitchell (although I'm not convinced yet), Ivaroni, etc. Just because Avery Johnson was handed a ready-made contender does not mean he's better than any of those four.

    One think I learned about Jeff in NYC: Patrick, Spree, Houston, etc. would all run through a brick wall if Jeff asked them to.

    That isn't true for Rick.

    End of story for comparing JVG to Rick. I want him fired because I *know* he's going to lose next year's team, too. Even if the roster gets a so-called makover like this season. (Ha!)

    You seem to be in one of those bizarre places where you have forgotten - just for this arguement - that the NBA is a players' league. You remember it elsewhere, but not here. Utah had a lottery-bound roster in 2005 - did Sloan lose the team? No. Could anybody have done better? Maybe. Maybe not. That team sucked, but it played hard and tough, even without talent.

    Rick + NBA players is a bad combination. Its bound to fail. If this team was just playing hard and tough, would they be on a 3-18 streak? Hell no. There's too much talent on this roster. JO has been tremendous this year. Tinsley is putting up great stats. I'll admit that nobody likes the shoot-first Tinsley, but the stats themselves look good. Murphy and Dunleavy are adjusting (slowly, yes) to their #3 and #4 option roles. Granger still has talent. The team - when Marquis Daniels was still healthy, looked pretty good. Now they don't have a single SG on the roster, and too many SFs. That's not Rick's fault - I'm not about to argue that he's been given a winning hand to work with. But he's not been given a 3-18 hand, or the free-fall we were enduring before last season's playoffs.

    And its not because Rick is old-school, like Sloan. He's not. Sloan demands a lot from his players but they still respect him. (Same for Riley).

    With Rick, you get the opposite - he's not demanding and he even seems to cave in to his difficult-to-lead yet talented players while still losing the respect of the team.

    I have no idea why that's the case. But Rick should just stick with the x's and o's - he's brilliant at those - without needing to deal with human beings. Its too bad he's not coaching a computer-generated team. But even the computer would probably tune him out after a while.

    BTW, I want to puke every time I hear Mark Jackson's name as a coaching candidate. Chuck Person is far more prepared to take over an NBA team than Jackson. I'd rather he goes back to the front office to take over that role when Donnie retires, but I digress...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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