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Thread: I was wrong about Rick

  1. #26
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    I think there's a bit of truth to the idea that the league has figured JO out.

    Double and triple team him and you will most likely win the game. This was discovered during the Detroit series in 03/04 and remains true to this day.
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  2. #27
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    The brawl was in season two not one. I am talking about the early days of the Rick Carlisle time in Indiana that everyone seems to have forgotten about. We started off strong as you usually do after any change. Then the league solved us and we started playing .500 ball I am talking about almost all od December of the 61 win season we were a .500 ball club.
    Gotta love the revisionist history, its getting more and more popular here by the day.

    The only reason that 61-win team was successful was because Ron Artest all of a sudden turned into a perfect little angel for most of the season. Noone thought that team would be any good and noone thought Ron Artest would be well-behaved. Before that season he had been nothing but a non-stop trouble-maker and then RC was brought in and it seemed Artest was a changed man. Its funny that as much as people complain about RC's people skills now, back then he was given credit for ringing in Artest.

    But that was just a fool's hope and Ron was just a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off. Unforunately he decided to explode in the ECF's against the Detroit Pistons. From then on this team was doomed. THATS the reason this team started losing. Not becasue "the rest of the league figured us out". Thats just plain baloney.

    Once he is forced to start Jamaal we go back to wining because Jamaal did not always follow the instructions. We still lost some games when Rick would put AJ back in to "secure defeat" but once the owners told him to stop doing that we got better.
    Oh yes, the only reason the Pacers ever won any games the last 4 seasons was due to Tinsley's unwillingness to follow directions. That makes perfect sense. Hell I got an idea, we should just make Tinsley the head coach since hes so damn smart, yeah. Do you actually believe the crap youre writing?!?

    If RC can't win with an untalented team then how come we went to the playoffs the last two seasons when everyone predicted we wouldn't? Don't tell me you think those teams were talented. They were slightly more talented then the current team but still pailed compared to the rest of the teams in the playoffs. Maybe thats why everyone around the league thinks Carlisle is a great coach.

    No thats too much of a stretch, its a lot more reasonable to believe there's a league-wide conspiracy to overrate Carlisle.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    No thats too much of a stretch, its a lot more reasonable to believe there's a league-wide conspiracy to overrate Carlisle.
    Yes, this is exactly what I said.

    My guess is you'd find plenty of people who don't agree with the notion he's just a poor guy, finding himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plenty of knowledgeable basketball people who don't think he's the poor misunderstood victim people here seem to think he is.

    Well, I can think of one. Joe Dumars fired him after doing such a great job. How'd that end up again?

  4. #29
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    Yes, this is exactly what I said.

    My guess is you'd find plenty of people who don't agree with the notion he's just a poor guy, finding himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plenty of knowledgeable basketball people who don't think he's the poor misunderstood victim people here seem to think he is.

    Well, I can think of one. Joe Dumars fired him after doing such a great job. How'd that end up again?
    Umm, well they were pretty much mediocre. That is until they picked up Rasheed. Then they became instant contenders. Thats what we need, some key talent upgrades. Btw, who replaced Carlisle? Oh yeah it was Larry Brown, hes the complete opposite of Carlisle.

    And for what its worth, I do think RC needs to be replaced this summer, but NOT at all because hes a bad coach.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Umm, well they were pretty much mediocre. That is until they picked up Rasheed. Then they became instant contenders. Thats what we need, some key talent upgrades. Btw, who replaced Carlisle? Oh yeah it was Larry Brown, hes the complete opposite of Carlisle.

    And for what its worth, I do think RC needs to be replaced this summer, but NOT at all because hes a bad coach.
    But Carlisle did have Billups, Hamilton, Big Ben, and Prince. I'd take that kind of mediocre all day, thanks.

    I said he's a good coach about 3 times in this thread already. I wish he was successful this year because I'm a Pacers fan. I'm sure he'll do well with his next team.

    But we're not good. His coaching is part of the problem. If he hasn't lost this team, aren't you worried what it would look like if he does?

    When all I hear is what a trooper he is, I gotta call bull-****.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    The Indiana Pacers need something Fresh, Rick did his job, but as a fan, we just can't compete with all these other teams, We're not atletic enough. ..Since we don't have a lot of fire power, we should have opened up the offense even during this losing part of the season,Rick's approach is not even close to motivating the players and who can blame them

  7. #32
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    @ JB's Breakout Year

    I agree with you for the most part. I think RC needs to go and I DO think he has lost the team. I just don't buy that RC was holding the Pistons or the Pacers back with his meticulous coaching (and that Larry Brown came and set the Pistons free).

    With all the crap this team has been through, and the players weve had on our roster, I think RC has done as good a job or better than any other coach would have done that last few seasons.

    But I do agree this team needs a fresh start.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    The brawl was in season two not one. I am talking about the early days of the Rick Carlisle time in Indiana that everyone seems to have forgotten about. We started off strong as you usually do after any change. Then the league solved us and we started playing .500 ball I am talking about almost all od December of the 61 win season we were a .500 ball club.
    If the league "solved" us as early as December, then how in the world did we win 61 games? Doesn't make much sense to me.

    We went 9-7 in December, but then went 12-3 in January which includes quality wins against Dallas, Detroit, and New Jersey. One of the losses was against San Antonio, and we had a 3 point lead towards the end of regulation, but Turkoglu hit a 3 to force OT with tenths of a sec left to force OT, which the Spurs won by a point. The Spurs game was the night after the victory in Dallas.

    So think about it: We won in Dallas one night, and went to SA the next night and had them beat, they were only saved by a lucky shot. I don't think you can do that if the league has you "solved" as you state.

  9. #34

    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneal07 View Post
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    I think we need a change of coach justfor the watcing sake of the pacers
    Please re-post this when your not drinking. As for RC, I would add that in no way is this all RC. I blame many of the current and former players. We have zilch for outside shooters. Shooters miss long or short not left or right. May be we should have traded JO instead of Al... who at the time was shooting about 47% from 3.
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Trade JO instead of AL? lol U must be drinkin somethin

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Finally go look at the Detroit and Indy rosters and what they did the year before Rick showed up. He isn't Larry Brown, he didn't get an influx of players.
    Huh?

    %80 of the Pistons roster was different from 2001 to 2002. Aside from Chucky, Ben and Jerry, Joe replaced the entire roster.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    But Carlisle did have Billups, Hamilton, Big Ben, and Prince. I'd take that kind of mediocre all day, thanks.

    I said he's a good coach about 3 times in this thread already. I wish he was successful this year because I'm a Pacers fan. I'm sure he'll do well with his next team.

    But we're not good. His coaching is part of the problem. If he hasn't lost this team, aren't you worried what it would look like if he does?

    When all I hear is what a trooper he is, I gotta call bull-****.


    If he hasn't lost this team, aren't you worried what it would look like if he does?

    " He has lost the team and this player has the skill set", make me want to puke when I hear them. WTF, does he lost the team mean? Did he lose them at the airport or what? I think fans use these terms to imply that they are somehow students of the game, when in reality they are only parroting what they have heard some talking head has said.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    If the league "solved" us as early as December, then how in the world did we win 61 games? Doesn't make much sense to me.

    We went 9-7 in December, but then went 12-3 in January which includes quality wins against Dallas, Detroit, and New Jersey. One of the losses was against San Antonio, and we had a 3 point lead towards the end of regulation, but Turkoglu hit a 3 to force OT with tenths of a sec left to force OT, which the Spurs won by a point. The Spurs game was the night after the victory in Dallas.

    So think about it: We won in Dallas one night, and went to SA the next night and had them beat, they were only saved by a lucky shot. I don't think you can do that if the league has you "solved" as you state.

    Ragnar's argument is that Tinsley was the key to that season and that kick-start in january.

    And, true, Jamaal was (and is) crucial to that (and to this) team. Thing is he has developed a sort of play that more often then not causes us to lose instead of winning the game (like he did in 2003-2004).

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  14. #39
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    If he hasn't lost this team, aren't you worried what it would look like if he does?

    " He has lost the team and this player has the skill set", make me want to puke when I hear them. WTF, does he lost the team mean? Did he lose them at the airport or what? I think fans use these terms to imply that they are somehow students of the game, when in reality they are only parroting what they have heard some talking head has said.
    When a coach has "lost his team", it means a situation where the players are no longer really listening to what he is saying. They may run his plays, but may decide to do something else instead. When the coach tries to motivate his (or her) players by saying or doing something, the players are no longer affected. There may be dissension among the players toward the coach, and players may be openly critical about him or her among themselves or to the coach. There is a general lack of respect for what the coach is trying to accomplish.

    As far as "skill set," that refers to the specific things a player can do. One player may be able to shoot and handle the ball, while another player is limited to rebounding and defense.

    And hey, I didn't even need to look those up! Hope that's helpful! Have a good one!

  15. #40

    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Do you think that this team can be more productive and more cohesive with another coach, essentially any coach, than they are now. I bring this up because the team we have is the team that will likely be on the floor next season. So given that there will be a new coach ( I think RC will move into the office) can this team avoid the losing streaks it has had this year? This is not to say that RC is terrible or can't coach another team to 61 wins or anything like that but merely he is no longer right for the next season.

    I think that given the same group next season the Ps will be better.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    Good points. But he really doesn't have that charisma, and it ain't like you're gonna learn it if you don't have it to begin with. It's a personality trait. He may be a hell of a nice guy once you get to know him. But he's not a leader of men (i.e., Riley, Jackson, Brown, Johnson, etc.).

    And he hasn't changed anything significant about his game management-playbook or otherwise for the past 19 games. Same old, same old.
    Have you ever wondered what the so called "leaders of men" as you put it would have done with this years team (post trade) or with the post brawl team.

    I think they would have -

    Riley - Would have gone to the front office citing hip surgery.

    Jackson - would have taken time off to find himself and write a book about Zen

    Brown - Would be giving all kinds of excuses in the press, call out players in the press, burn a few bridges with team management and get fired with $20 million left on his contract (I have respect for coach Brown and I think was wrongfully shown the exit in Detroit and New York but am just making a point)

    Avery Johnson - Avery is good and has leadership skills but the bottom line is he has a good Dallas team that Ron Rothstein might take to the Western Conference finals.

    Just think for a moment what Rick has acheived in Detroit and his years here as an assistant and head coach before you let 19 games after a mid season trade cloud your opinion of him.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    On the other hand, any of those guys might have led to us Greg Oden.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerwaala View Post
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    Have you ever wondered what the so called "leaders of men" as you put it would have done with this years team (post trade) or with the post brawl team.

    I think they would have -

    Riley - Would have gone to the front office citing hip surgery.

    Jackson - would have taken time off to find himself and write a book about Zen

    Brown - Would be giving all kinds of excuses in the press, call out players in the press, burn a few bridges with team management and get fired with $20 million left on his contract (I have respect for coach Brown and I think was wrongfully shown the exit in Detroit and New York but am just making a point)

    Avery Johnson - Avery is good and has leadership skills but the bottom line is he has a good Dallas team that Ron Rothstein might take to the Western Conference finals.

    Just think for a moment what Rick has acheived in Detroit and his years here as an assistant and head coach before you let 19 games after a mid season trade cloud your opinion of him.
    You may be right about the above coaches. And Rick did a fine job in Detroit and for his first couple of seasons here. Although when he left Detroit, they won a title. I'm just sayin'....

    But it's not just about the past 19 games. He has his flaws like any other coach, and I would argue he is not in the same ballpark with the coaches listed above. You may disagree. But he's overrated because of the pass he continually gets. A lot of people seem to say he can't be criticized because of the Brawl, Artest, Jackson, etc. He's a part of the problem, too. Quit excusing him because of the circumstances this franchise has gone through.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I think there's a bit of truth to the idea that the league has figured JO out.

    Double and triple team him and you will most likely win the game. This was discovered during the Detroit series in 03/04 and remains true to this day.
    Miami.

    It was SVG that figured it out. Larry Brown and everyone else with a brain copied off it.

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    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    I've got others...

    Can you tell the one about Bob Hill being able to coach?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  21. #46
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Laugh all you want...

    He took an allergic-to-defense Pacers team to 0.500.

    He took the Spurs to 62- wins (even better than the legendary Rick Carlisle's 61-win!! season) and the WCFs.

    In ranking coaches, there isn't a big difference between Carlilse and Hill, if they are working with comparable talent levels.

    In fact, I doubt that *this* roster, which is better than Seattle's, would be on a 2-1x (whatever, I've lost track) streak with Bo.

    It won't be long until Seattle moves ahead of us in the overall standings, with an inferior roster, and playing in a tougher conference.

    In fact, if Seattle beats Denver later tonight (and assuming we lose to SA), we'll be tied.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  22. #47
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Can you tell the one about Bob Hill being able to coach?
    I've maintained for years that instead of firing Hill the Pacers should have fired the team (except for Reggie, of course).

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