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Thread: I was wrong about Rick

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    Member Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default I was wrong about Rick

    I have thought for a long time that Rick was like Doc Rivers in that he would do great with a not very talented team but was clearly not doing well with an incredibly talented team.

    I was wrong apparently Rick can make an incredibly talented team make the ECF but if he has very little talent to work with (you know take away talented players like Al and Jack and give him not so good players like Dun and Murph) he is absolutely horrible. His system will ONLY work if the players are so good that they can make something of his bad plays.

    Look at the first season his system was working because Ron, Jermaine and Reggie made things happen. Then the league figured us out and we became a .500 team. Once he is forced to start Jamaal we go back to wining because Jamaal did not always follow the instructions. We still lost some games when Rick would put AJ back in to "secure defeat" but once the owners told him to stop doing that we got better.

    Now we all know Rick was the real coach durring the Larry Legend years so how come it worked then?

    Two things:
    1.Talented players who could break his plays
    2. Larry made him simplify his offense.

    Remember Larry in an interview recently talked about how when Rick was his "assistant" that he made Rick throw out a lot of his plays because there were just too many.

    My point is that Rick would make a GREAT lead assistant to a players coach but as a head coach he is not working.

    So I was wrong dont let him coach a team like Charlotte he needs to coach the Suns and maybe they could make the playoffs.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    I think the problem is he needs people who like him or love him and do exactly what he asked, otherwise it doesn't work. If what is said about his condescending attitude with the players is true, then I believe that is a huge reason it isn't working here. I think JO's mostly fine with his coaching because he gets treated like the golden boy. I know Mike loves it and I think Troy's fine with it too. Jeff fits with it just fine. But I think Rick rubs the others wrong. Of course, I think Tinsley brings a lot of his own **** to the table so I feel very little sympathy towards him in this regard.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    I think judging Rick on this season is a little like judging Larry Brown on his last season here or his one season in NY. You really don't learn how good of a coach he is.

    I think management in many ways neutered Rick this season. They traded away AJ so Rick was forced to play JT and Saras. They forced him to fire Kevin O'Neill, and they criticized him in the media. I think Rick knows he's on the way out, the players know he's on the way out, and that is a big part of the 2-17 record.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Look at the first season his system was working because Ron, Jermaine and Reggie made things happen. Then the league figured us out and we became a .500 team.

    I'm very confused - what you mean "figured us out". I thought the brawl was the reason for the swoon - the Artest stuff, the injuries, and all the turnoil. I don't see how "the league figuring us out" plays into any of this. In fact how could they figure us out - look at how many different players have started for us the past 3 seasons. I don't think anyone has the pacers figured out

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Look at the first season his system was working because Ron, Jermaine and Reggie made things happen. Then the league figured us out and we became a .500 team.
    What part of Ron played on that .500 team?

    What part of Reggie played on the 2nd .500 team (and frankly if you call shooting 32% from 3 "making something" then I don't know what to tell you, that was Reggie on the first .500 team)?

    How many games did JO "make something from bad plays" the last 2 seasons? Or Tins?


    Now give me the list of low talent teams going to the conference finals, let's list the coaches taking teams all the way. Cripes, what is Phil Jackson doing and he has "one of the greatest players of all time" on his team.


    Honestly, calling Ron a guy who on OFFENSE makes something out of bad plays is ridiculous. The notebook on Artest around the league does not include the words "serious offensive threat". They might include "tends to take over and force bad shots, will often disrupt his own team's offense rather than work the system" though.

    Tinsley has NEVER BEEN a great shooter. NEVER. Go over to Pacers.com and read the Final Four memories. Here's what Tinsley had to say about missing the game winning layup in his final NCAA game...
    For a split-second, Jamaal Tinsley appeared to be Iowa State's savior in the 2001 NCAA Tournament. After the second-seeded Cyclones fell behind 15th-seeded Hampton 58-57 with 6.8 seconds left, Tinsley traversed the court with relative ease on his way to a potential game-winning layup.

    'I had a clean look, 'Tinsley said. 'But it was like a toilet bowl. It went in and came out.'

    As Tinsley's last-second shot went, so did his Cyclones. Only a year after reaching the Elite Eight, Iowa State became only the fourth No. 2 seed to be flushed out of the first round since the field expanded to 64 teams in 1985.

    Obviously, an upset of such magnitude is extremely rare. But, as Tinsley points out, a missed layup isn't all that uncommon.
    Wow, does that sound familiar or what. Missing layups and shots at the rim has been a theme his entire career.

    Finally go look at the Detroit and Indy rosters and what they did the year before Rick showed up. He isn't Larry Brown, he didn't get an influx of players.

    Rick never had Brad Miller. He had Ron Artest 1 season. He's had JO 2 mostly full seasons and 2 half seasons.

    He never had Sheed, he didn't have Rip or Billups or Prince his first year in Detroit.


    Come on man. Maybe he's lost this team, but isn't it really odd that none of his players do anything more than they did with him in Indy? Even Jack and Al are putting up the SAME NUMBERS, not better.

    How come Croshere and AJ were Indy starters and zero minutes guys in Dallas if Rick was being carried by their "talent"? How come Fred Jones was a starter for Rick and has become an also-ran elsewhere, like AJ moved within a half season (and TOR SIGNED HIM, they went out of their way to get him)? How come James Jones remains the same 3pt shooter he was in Indy, despite being put into the most open and flowing offense in the NBA? Weren't JJ's numbers supposed to take off when he hit PHX?


    Maybe Rick needs to move, but if you think that it was just mirrors that made the team win THIRTEEN more games with Rick than with Isiah despite losing an ALL-STAR Center (Brad was an AS for Isiah, team still took a nose dive) then I have to question your judgement.

    Rick not working here now has nothing to do with his bad plays. Dunleavy, Murph and Ike were a big part of what Golden St did the last 2 years. Remind me what that was again?

    So what did you expect to happen when they came here?

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Rick is the most overrated coach in the NBA. Every national announcer or analyst (like Hubie Brown last night) says something like, "Rick Carlisle has done an amazing job considering all the turmoil that the Pacers have gone through these past few years." I'm sick of hearing how he's somehow a victim of circumstances, so he's played no part in this mess of a season.

    Currently we're on a 2-17 run to the Playoffs. He has run the same offense, with the same rotation, and said the same things after each loss this entire time.

    Sure, he's added Williams into the rotation over the past few, but that doesn't mean a 70% JO isn't going to get the ball every time down the court, or possibly Tinsley will be forced to create something late in the clock because nobody else wants to shoot it. Or maybe Tinsley will just throw up an ugly 3 pt shot with about 20 seconds left on the shot clock.

    He tends to cover his own *** (he recently said he gets on his players when they need it-RIIIIGHT....). He gives no eye contact to his players when they enter or exit the game. He coaches like a robot. When he gets a technical it looks incredibly forced.

    He's an above-average coach who's lost this team beyond repair, like a lot of decent coaches have in the past. It's time for a fresh start for the team and for him, in Seattle or wherever.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    Rick is the most overrated coach in the NBA. Every national announcer or analyst (like Hubie Brown last night) says something like, "Rick Carlisle has done an amazing job considering all the turmoil that the Pacers have gone through these past few years." I'm sick of hearing how he's somehow a victim of circumstances, so he's played no part in this mess of a season.

    Currently we're on a 2-17 run to the Playoffs. He has run the same offense, with the same rotation, and said the same things after each loss this entire time.

    Sure, he's added Williams into the rotation over the past few, but that doesn't mean a 70% JO isn't going to get the ball every time down the court, or possibly Tinsley will be forced to create something late in the clock because nobody else wants to shoot it. Or maybe Tinsley will just throw up an ugly 3 pt shot with about 20 seconds left on the shot clock.

    He tends to cover his own *** (he recently said he gets on his players when they need it-RIIIIGHT....). He gives no eye contact to his players when they enter or exit the game. He coaches like a robot. When he gets a technical it looks incredibly forced.

    He's an above-average coach who's lost this team beyond repair, like a lot of decent coaches have in the past. It's time for a fresh start for the team and for him, in Seattle or wherever.

    Yep, it is always easier to replace the coach, no matter if he is the problem or not. I think that your evaluation of Rick is 100% wrong and bogus. You state that he is overated and in the next breath you say he is an above average coach. Which is it?

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    Yep, it is always easier to replace the coach, no matter if he is the problem or not. I think that your evaluation of Rick is 100% wrong and bogus. You state that he is overated and in the next breath you say he is an above average coach. Which is it?
    Aggreed. Very wishy-washy.
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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    The premise of this thread could be applied to any coach, anwhere in any sport.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Aggreed. Very wishy-washy.
    I'll third that. People who don't like Rick just don't like him. Those who look at it objectively usually end up with the same opinions as the announcers. There's a REASON they always talk about how good a coach he is. It isn't because he slips them a $100 bill before the game every night.

    He doesn't have good players on this team. Period.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    I think we need a change of coach justfor the watcing sake of the pacers

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    Yep, it is always easier to replace the coach, no matter if he is the problem or not. I think that your evaluation of Rick is 100% wrong and bogus. You state that he is overated and in the next breath you say he is an above average coach. Which is it?
    He's both at the same time. You're not able to see good and bad in the same person? It only makes sense if it's black and white?

    But no, he can't be held responsible, because he won 61 games 3 seasons ago. He helped to make us respectable after the brawl? Great. That was 2 seasons ago. .500 last year? Not his fault, right? That was all on Ron Artest. What could Rick possibly have done? He's just the coach with all the bad things happening to his team.

    This season (aka, the one we are currently in), he has taken a 29-24 team and coached them to a 31-41 record. 2-17. Nah, we can't criticize him. It was the trade/injuries/lack of talent/coaching staff/his bosses/Jamaal Tinsley/the weather/something he ate.

    He's a good coach. And, as I said above, he's lost this team, like a lot of good coaches have lost their teams. Doesn't mean he's awful, but doesn't make him great. All this crap about how wonderful he is is ridiculous. He's coached us to the brink of missing the play-offs. In the Eastern Conference.

    But it's not his fault ...

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    He's both at the same time. You're not able to see good and bad in the same person? It only makes sense if it's black and white?

    But no, he can't be held responsible, because he won 61 games 3 seasons ago. He helped to make us respectable after the brawl? Great. That was 2 seasons ago. .500 last year? Not his fault, right? That was all on Ron Artest. What could Rick possibly have done? He's just the coach with all the bad things happening to his team.

    This season (aka, the one we are currently in), he has taken a 29-24 team and coached them to a 31-41 record. 2-17. Nah, we can't criticize him. It was the trade/injuries/lack of talent/coaching staff/his bosses/Jamaal Tinsley/the weather/something he ate.

    He's a good coach. And, as I said above, he's lost this team, like a lot of good coaches have lost their teams. Doesn't mean he's awful, but doesn't make him great. All this crap about how wonderful he is is ridiculous. He's coached us to the brink of missing the play-offs. In the Eastern Conference.

    But it's not his fault ...
    It's less RC's fault than the players the idiotic management have put together. ...and I'm saying this without being much of a RC fan.

    He is an above average coach in this league notwithstanding poor people skills. If he had any charisma and would drop half his playbook, he would be Pat Riley. As it stands, he is not as good as Larry Brown IMO...but is better than at least half the league.

    He was fortunate to have a highly talented team for a couple years only to see management destroy it by bringing in numbskull after numbskull...then dumping talented numbskulls for backups.

    ...but RC will take the hit before anyone above him.

    But that's the way it goes. Those in power - regardless of how stupid they might be - always get the last word.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    I'll third that. People who don't like Rick just don't like him. Those who look at it objectively usually end up with the same opinions as the announcers. There's a REASON they always talk about how good a coach he is. It isn't because he slips them a $100 bill before the game every night.

    He doesn't have good players on this team. Period.
    What would I have against him personally? I've never met him; I'm just a fan of the team he coaches. I want him to succeed-I want to root for a team that wins. Ours doesn't, though. And he's the head coach.

    Looking at it objectively? You mean, like 2-17 objectively? You mean us getting blown out by 20 every other game objectively?

    The announcers aren't going to say he sucks, are they? They've got to work with the guy. He's been an announcer too and it's pretty likely he's a friend of many of them.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It's less RC's fault than the players the idiotic management have put together. ...and I'm saying this without being much of a RC fan.

    He is an above average coach in this league notwithstanding poor people skills. If he had any charisma and would drop half his playbook, he would be Pat Riley. As it stands, he is not as good as Larry Brown IMO...but is better than at least half the league.

    He was fortunate to have a highly talented team for a couple years only to see management destroy it by bringing in numbskull after numbskull...then dumping talented numbskulls for backups.

    ...but RC will take the hit before anyone above him.

    But that's the way it goes. Those in power - regardless of how stupid they might be - always get the last word.
    Good points. But he really doesn't have that charisma, and it ain't like you're gonna learn it if you don't have it to begin with. It's a personality trait. He may be a hell of a nice guy once you get to know him. But he's not a leader of men (i.e., Riley, Jackson, Brown, Johnson, etc.).

    And he hasn't changed anything significant about his game management-playbook or otherwise for the past 19 games. Same old, same old.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    What would I have against him personally? I've never met him; I'm just a fan of the team he coaches. I want him to succeed-I want to root for a team that wins. Ours doesn't, though. And he's the head coach.

    Looking at it objectively? You mean, like 2-17 objectively? You mean us getting blown out by 20 every other game objectively?

    The announcers aren't going to say he sucks, are they? They've got to work with the guy. He's been an announcer too and it's pretty likely he's a friend of many of them.
    No, I mean like Murphy-Dunleavy-Armstrong-McLeod-Marshall-Harrison-Greene objectively. Honestly, the Pacers have one of THE WORST rosters in the entire NBA from a talent perspective. Teams with worse records than the Pacers have more talented rosters. And obviously all the teams above the Pacers do as well.

    If Carlisle goes next year I think we will see what an average coach really does with a terrible team. Then people will be calling for another new head coach when the problem is and has been the talent.

    Even when Jack and Harrington were on the team, the roster was lacking. The league is dominated by guards who can shoot for percentage and volume. You can go team-by-team in the standings. The teams who are in the playoff hunt have talented guards. Cleveland and Toronto may be the exceptions, but noone expects either team to advance that far in the playoffs, and in Cleveland's case they have a SG in LeBron who happens to play SF.

    The Pacers have no such guard. Not at point, not at the 2. Not in the starting lineup, not on the bench. They haven't had one since Miller retired. They haven't tried to get one since then, either. Instead they've been enamored with defense-lacking, perimeter oriented SF for some reason.

    The management is to blame, not the coach. If they insist on getting rid of the coach, then this cycle of mediocrity will intensify until the franchise hits rock bottom. They are far from it percentage wise, but not that far in terms of talent.

    I don't believe you have anything against Carlisle personally, but I do believe that your judgement of him is much the same as how fans judge a particular player. i.e. You just don't like his style.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    I don't believe you have anything against Carlisle personally, but I do believe that your judgement of him is much the same as how fans judge a particular player. i.e. You just don't like his style.
    Agreed. I don't care for its results, either.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    But he really doesn't have that charisma, and it ain't like you're gonna learn it if you don't have it to begin with. It's a personality trait. He may be a hell of a nice guy once you get to know him.
    You mean like the charismatic Tony Dungy
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    You mean like the charismatic Tony Dungy
    Sure. That's a fine example.

    Remember how many of Colts players, including Peyton Manning, commented on how special it was to win the Super Bowl for Dungy? He's a leader. He connects with his players. They want to do what he says is best.

    Or wouldn't you say Dungy's leadership was a factor in the title?

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    Sure. That's a fine example.

    Remember how many of Colts players, including Peyton Manning, commented on how special it was to win the Super Bowl for Dungy? He's a leader. He connects with his players. They want to do what he says is best.

    Or wouldn't you say Dungy's leadership was a factor in the title?

    Yeah, like it is much easier to say nice things about a coach when you are winning, right? UH, the Pacers don't have Manning, Harrison, Wayne type players on their roster, right?

    The best damn coach in the universe couldn't get anymore out of this mismash collection of players than Rick has.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think management in many ways neutered Rick this season. They traded away AJ so Rick was forced to play JT and Saras. They forced him to fire Kevin O'Neill, and they criticized him in the media. I think Rick knows he's on the way out, the players know he's on the way out, and that is a big part of the 2-17 record.
    You inspired me:

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=562735

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    Yeah, like it is much easier to say nice things about a coach when you are winning, right? UH, the Pacers don't have Manning, Harrison, Wayne type players on their roster, right?

    The best damn coach in the universe couldn't get anymore out of this mismash collection of players than Rick has.
    The Colts had, what, the 32nd ranked defense in the league going into the playoffs? Or doesn't that matter?

    It's "easier" to say nice things? He got more out of his defense than Carlisle has gotten out of his "mishmash". I've got the Super Bowl commemorative T-shirt to prove it.

    The "best damn coach in the universe" couldn't do better than 2-17? Huh....

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    One thing the Colts have done is bring people in that get in line behind Dungy and then behind Peyton. The pecking order is clear.

    We had a certain kicker that questioned the hierarchy and last I checked he was out of the league a couple of years later and on thin ice from the point he opened his mouth and spoke out of turn. True, he did hang around a while after his famous quote but he was put in his place because the pecking order (chain of command) was clear and stayed strong.

    You cannot say that about the Pacers. The whole pecking order is a muddied mess.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    One thing the Colts have done is bring people in that get in line behind Dungy and then behind Peyton. The pecking order is clear.

    We had a certain kicker that questioned the hierarchy and last I checked he was out of the league a couple of years later and on thin ice from the point he opened his mouth and spoke out of turn. True, he did hang around a while after his famous quote but he was put in his place because the pecking order (chain of command) was clear and stayed strong.

    You cannot say that about the Pacers. The whole pecking order is a muddied mess.

    -Bball
    Excellent points. There is definitely great leadership on the Colts.

    Maybe Dungy will help us out and take over as the Pacers coach. Certainly his performance could not be worse.

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    Default Re: I was wrong about Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm very confused - what you mean "figured us out". I thought the brawl was the reason for the swoon - the Artest stuff, the injuries, and all the turnoil. I don't see how "the league figuring us out" plays into any of this. In fact how could they figure us out - look at how many different players have started for us the past 3 seasons. I don't think anyone has the pacers figured out
    The brawl was in season two not one. I am talking about the early days of the Rick Carlisle time in Indiana that everyone seems to have forgotten about. We started off strong as you usually do after any change. Then the league solved us and we started playing .500 ball I am talking about almost all od December of the 61 win season we were a .500 ball club.

    Naptown I am not talking about shooting percentage. I also did not say he would take a low talent team anywhere My point was that I had always thought he would do better with less talent because of his controlling style. I was clearly wrong on that.

    You could be right Naptown AJ clearly had zero talent and Rick did get a lot out of him but at the same time you make my point. He took the Pistons to the ECF (admitedly in a much weaker climate)

    Your point about him being better than Isiah is confusing to me. Of course he was better than Isiah.

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