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Thread: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    This is one of the more interesting articles written by Mr. Wells. But what he said towards the end caught my attention.


    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


    Playoffs now seem dubious ambition
    Pacers look dispirited in another loss to rival for postseason berth
    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com
    March 31, 2007


    ORLANDO, Fla. -- The goal sounded good at first.

    The Indiana Pacers would go on the road, roll up their sleeves and work hard to salvage their disappointing season.

    They were knocked around and bruised in their first stop, New Jersey, on Wednesday.

    The Pacers' second stop, Orlando, to which they went staggering, wasn't much better, and now their chance of making the playoffs is on life support.
    In a game in which the final score was misleading and after which All-Star forward Jermaine O'Neal was near tears, the Pacers continued their losing skid, falling 95-87 to the Magic on national television Friday.

    "It's just disappointing to lose the way we have been losing," O'Neal said. "It's embarrassing; it's a lot of things."

    The losing has taken its toll on O'Neal, and the writing on the wall about his future in the organization is becoming clearer every day.

    As he sat with his injured left ankle in a tub of ice water, O'Neal was asked about wanting to be traded, a question likely to continue to come up as the Pacers move closer to missing the playoffs for the first time since 1996-97.
    After pausing for 10 seconds to take in the question, O'Neal put a towel over his face to hide his emotions and ended the interview session. O'Neal has said a number of times since last summer that he plans to sit down with CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird at the end of the season to address future plans.

    The loss has the Pacers 21/2 games behind the Magic and trailing New Jersey by two games in the playoff race. They don't own the tiebreaker over either team, making their playoff chances that much more difficult.

    "I would have thought a long time ago we would have had this thing turned around," O'Neal said. "We lost seven games in a row and I thought we would have had the incentive to go out and try and be a better team and get into the postseason."

    The Pacers are saying the right things, like their season isn't over and they can still make the playoffs.

    But as the saying goes, action speaks louder than words. The only action the Pacers have shown lately is that of a team that has given up any hope of making the playoffs, which is evident by their body language on the court.

    They've lost 17 of the past 19 games, including 11 straight on the road.
    The schedule doesn't get any easier for the Pacers. Their next two games are against San Antonio and Detroit, two of the best teams in the league.

    "We are not giving into anything," Pacers coach Rick Carlisle said. "We are going to keep fighting this thing and getting ready for the next (game). We will break through. It's about winning games and competing. It's a tough situation, but nothing comes out of giving in. That ain't going to happen."

    With playoff implications on the line, the only Pacers player seemingly putting forth any effort was point guard Jamaal Tinsley, who led the Pacers with 27 points.

    O'Neal, who missed Wednesday's game against the Nets, struggled all night, going 4-of-18 from the field for 10 points and three rebounds. He limped throughout most of the game and sat out the final few minutes.

    Forward Grant Hill led the Magic with 22 points. Trevor Ariza came off the bench to add 17 points.

    "That's a good win for us, obviously, with the situation in the standings," Magic coach Brian Hill said. "It gives us a two-game lead in the loss column right now, which is a tiny bit of breathing room, anyway."



    __________________________________________________ ____


    Does anyone else agree that JT was the only guy seemingly giving any effort. On the whole the Pacers effort last night was pretty good. Yes it was a little inconsistant, but I just find it strange that Wells picks now to get into the effert thing.

    I do agree that the Pacers body language on the court is horrible. When even the slightest thing goes wrong - the team falls apart

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    well it seemed like habitually making stupid passes, taking bad shots, and allowing layups were all not things that bothered too many people.

    I didn't see much intensity or emotion, which isn't exactly the same as effort, but is related. The hustle plays were rare. I thought JT's play was more playground 1-on-1 freelancing than anything else, so may he gets too much credit.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Jamal needs to showcase his talents.
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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    well it seemed like habitually making stupid passes, taking bad shots, and allowing layups were all not things that bothered too many people.

    I didn't see much intensity or emotion, which isn't exactly the same as effort, but is related. The hustle plays were rare. I thought JT's play was more playground 1-on-1 freelancing than anything else, so may he gets too much credit.
    This is what I was hinting at in the post game thread. Yes there is some effort going on. But it's completely unfocused and unpassionate. It's as if each individual is putting forth some level of effort but they are operating as five separate entities. There is no team chemistry.

    To me it's kind of like you have to expend some energy in order to run, shoot, jump, dribble type effort. An isolated "hustle" play every now and then. Otherwise, Not a concerted, focused, team effort that shows intensity for the common goal of winning. These guys are definitely not giving it up for each other or their coach right now IMO. There is no fire.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    IMO (and this is the first game I've seen in a LONG time so take it with as huge grain of salt) they looked like a team that was physically trying and giving effort but wasn't there mentally. No focus.
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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    A lot of the "effort" was out of frustration and only in bursts.

    I think the best word to describe what is going on right now if frustration. The players are extremely frustrated

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    I don't get to see many Pacers games, but I did see the one last night.

    I agree with Buck that the effort overall was good. In fact, I enjoyed the game, although I would have liked to been able to see Diogu. But one thing that really struck me is that Tinsley was the only one who seemed to make a great effort to get the ball.

    I understand he's the point guard, so of course it's his role to come and get the ball when the offense stalls. But no one seemed to be moving as fast as him on offense (half court offense that is), and I don't think he's a particularly fast guy. When someone else had the ball, Tinsley would move around, come to the ball, etc. When Tinsley had the ball, the other Pacers would wait for him to dribble around, draw some defense, and then either pass it to them or shoot it.

    It may seem like a subtlety, but I think it says something pretty important about our offense.

    I also think that maybe the reason that Wells singles out his effort, is because he's confused. Every Pacer, to my eyes, seemed to be giving a lot of effort. But Tinsley showed two things with his body language that no one else seemed to: (1) Still being personally offended by losing, and being hurt and surprised by it (recall the ball in the stands episode a week or two ago); and (2) Not appearing to be willing to take it--this may be where all the "free lancing" comes in.

    I know, I hate it too when people read into body language. I'm not saying it's an honest assessment of how every Pacer was feeling, but it's what the body language said, and I think that's what Wells picked up on.

    Have you guys ever played pickup ball, been one of the better players on the court, and your team is getting beat, and you're competitive so it really ticks you off? And the only other really good scorer on your team is having an off day....and you start to think to yourself, hey, I've worked all game to get my team into this, it's not working, everyone's getting frustrated, and probably our only hope to win is me attacking more, and putting some points on the board?

    That's what Tinsley reminds me of a lot of the time, and last night was the perfect example. Is that bad? Maybe, since it can get predictable. But was it also maybe our best chance to win? I don't know... but I sure didn't see a whole lot of other open Pacers and open shots getting passed up.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Am I the only one who got a vision of UB going Iverson after reading this thread title?

    Effort? Effort? We talkin' 'bout effort, man. EFFORT.

    Seriously, though, I don't think effort is the main problem here. This team is just poorly assembled, and Rick's coaching style doesn't work with them, either.

    We have arguably the worst perimeter defense in the league, and on some nights, the shooting follows suite. Yet, the youngsters who could possibly help out in both areas remain on the bench. It's not hard to see why we're 2-18 in the last 20 games.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by stlouis steve View Post
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    Have you guys ever played pickup ball, been one of the better players on the court, and your team is getting beat, and you're competitive so it really ticks you off? And the only other really good scorer on your team is having an off day....and you start to think to yourself, hey, I've worked all game to get my team into this, it's not working, everyone's getting frustrated, and probably our only hope to win is me attacking more, and putting some points on the board?
    ALL THE TIME.

    And even if I'm not one of the better players on the court, I at least hustle to try to make up for it.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Just a quick point...

    Yeah, a team has to score to win but as a member of a team you can do other things besides scoring to help your team win.

    Sometimes I think that gets lost in the hoopla.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart"It's just disappointing to lose the way we have been losing," O'Neal said. "It's embarrassing; it's a lot of things."

    The losing has taken its toll on O'Neal, and the writing on the wall about his future in the organization is becoming clearer every day.

    As he sat with his injured left ankle in a tub of ice water, O'Neal was asked about wanting to be traded, a question likely to continue to come up as the Pacers move closer to missing the playoffs for the first time since 1996-97.
    After pausing for 10 seconds to take in the question, O'Neal put a towel over his face to hide his emotions and ended the interview session.
    O'Neal has said a number of times since last summer that he plans to sit down with CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird at the end of the season to address future plans.
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this part of the article. You really feel for the guy....cuz you know that he doesn't want to leave....but there is no way that he can take going through another season like this.

    Its been emotionally draining on us....I can't imagine the strain on him.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    I am not seeing a lot of effort. I feel that the guys we got in the trade are very used to losing and it shows.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Does anyone else agree that JT was the only guy seemingly giving any effort. On the whole the Pacers effort last night was pretty good. Yes it was a little inconsistant, but I just find it strange that Wells picks now to get into the effert thing.

    I do agree that the Pacers body language on the court is horrible. When even the slightest thing goes wrong - the team falls apart
    Tins has been more dialed in lately I think. He's still missing shots he needs to make, but he certainly looks focused and bringing effort.

    But he wasn't the only guy. JO obviously was pushing himself just to be out there. Foster continues to do whatever he can. Dunleavy had that steal I mentioned in the post-game where he sprinted back on transition to catch up and make the play.

    They look confused and often look overmatched. They are bringing knives to a shootout right now, and all the effort in the world is going to struggle most nights. Having JO hurting is killing them. They need to have a couple of things that other teams just can't stop. They already have the effort to go with it.


    Frankly I've been pleasantly surprised by their effort, this is a team that easily could have quit. I thought last year the team looked more like they had given up and Peja was a big part of that I think.

    They may not be winning but they are enduring losing with a strong face. I've been on rec-league softball teams that fell apart with losing 5 times worse than this, and that was just playing for fun.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by HOOPFANATIC View Post
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    I am not seeing a lot of effort. I feel that the guys we got in the trade are very used to losing and it shows.
    But... what about Jermaine out there playing on one leg? He took it down into the post time and time again with Howard. That was going on for as long as he was on the court. To me thats effort.

    For me, Jamaal's play last night was all effort. I think there were stretches where he took it too far. But early in the game he tried and did all he could to keep us competitive

    Armstrong... okay enough said in terms of effort by simply pointing out the fact he took the court.

    Okay my point is that we aren't losing because guys have stopped trying. Are we frustrated because we are losing or are we losing because we are frustrated? I don't know thats the classic teleology... I'd say it doesn't matter.
    The team we are putting on the floor can be well coached (I thought Carlisle coached the last 2 minutes of the game flawlessly giving us a chance to win) and play hard and STILL LOSE. We don't have the pieces we need. Thats my opinion.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    ALL THE TIME.

    And even if I'm not one of the better players on the court, I at least hustle to try to make up for it.
    That's what I mean about Tins dialed in. He's struggling to MAKE shots at times, especially in the 2nd halves of games. But he is getting good looks almost at will.

    Right now I find myself HOPING for Mel Mel, enjoying Mel Mel, because it's the good version (if the shots were falling). I saw him do something he hasn't been doing recently, catch a pass at the arc, FAKE and then dribble in to a closer look.

    Stuff like that and other plays look like MelMel in good form, trying to take over and make something out of just nothing. He's not playing out of control angry like bad MelMel, the one that gets baited into one-upmanship.

    Let's be honest here, they run a lot of plays that end up broken. I don't even think they are bad plays (not anti RC actually), but guys pull up on shots (Dun, Troy, DG all are struggling with shooting confidence) or don't have the goods to get by a guy or come free on a screen, etc. Then Tins steps in with 7-8 seconds left and goes for a shot near the paint.

    If he was hitting those little jumpers he'd be carrying this team as much as JO.

    Instead Tins has shown the team's biggest weakness - a lack of shot makers (meaning including him).

    With Quis or Jack creating closer to the rim and with Al dropping 3's like Reggie (40%+!) this team could score. Without all those pieces you have to cross your fingers and hope that Dun or Troy have their open jumper falling.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Good to the see the good Tins on national TV. I think Brown's commentary also may have helped his resale value.

    I found it odd that there very few 'fast' breaks. There were some fast starts that slowed. One common element from the pushes that we have had in other games of late, unless JO is healthy and hitting, 5 on 5 does not bring much success.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by efhead View Post
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    Good to the see the good Tins on national TV. I think Brown's commentary also may have helped his resale value.

    I found it odd that there very few 'fast' breaks. There were some fast starts that slowed. One common element from the pushes that we have had in other games of late, unless JO is healthy and hitting, 5 on 5 does not bring much success.
    Yeah Hubie kept pointing out that the Pacers were getting their fast breaks regularly but that they never attacked the rim.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    I'll mention this again, and it is NOT a knock on JO, but is he playing (with obvious injury) to try and get this team a few wins and maybe into the playoffs or is he playing to keep his trade value as high as possible (to increase his options)?

    If he knows he's going to ask/demand a trade, is considering or leaning that way, or knows/thinks management will be leaning that way then I don't begrudge him for that.

    It's just that things seem such a lost cause at this point (and the point we've been at for a while) that him playing with injuries (knee/ankle) seems like a waste, if not dangerous, considering the circumstances.

    If ever there was a case where we could afford to rest a player, this is it. I don't see the point of making the playoffs in this condition anyway. This is the NBA playoffs, not a one and done elimination tournament. Even the financial gain for ownership of making the playoffs is extremely short term compared to what would happen if we kept our pick plus was able to use the final games as a barometer and experience gatherer for our other players to allow them to showcase themselves to TPTB in real game conditions.

    (If making the playoffs) They make a few more dollars this season (in a lost cause) yet stunt the growth of the team and database that we could use for offseason decisions about next season... where hopefully that database and game experience could be put to better use for next season's record to keep it from being a lost cause too. And avoiding next season being a lost cause would increase the longer term dollars.

    Finally having a light at the end of the tunnel would be nice for everyone. It's not like last season wasn't a lost cause as well.

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this part of the article. You really feel for the guy....cuz you know that he doesn't want to leave....but there is no way that he can take going through another season like this.

    Its been emotionally draining on us....I can't imagine the strain on him.
    Ahh, the poor baby. Only making $10,000,000 or so a year to play BASKETBALL!!
    STFU Jermaine. Act like a man. "OOHH , we're losing, so I want out". Big F'ing BABY!
    SMACK!!!!

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    Default Re: I take exception to Mike Wells article. Yes we are talking about effort

    I thought Jamaal played very hard.
    But you know how to tell how bad a shooter he is? Twice he missed a shot and the ball bounced back to him and he shot it again and missed again. Same line to the basket. Man if I ever miss a shot and it comes right back to me it's money every time. I think it is for any decent shooter.
    Not for Jamaal.

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