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Thread: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

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    Member jcouts's Avatar
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    Default Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    In particular, the areas in bold...

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html

    Ready for his close-up
    Iavaroni works into position to become a head coach
    Posted: Thursday March 29, 2007 11:01AM; Updated: Thursday March 29, 2007 5:34PM

    It is just past 6 a.m. in Phoenix and Marc Iavaroni is already in his office.

    "That goes back to my Stan Van Gundy days,'' says Iavaroni, referring to his three seasons as an assistant with the Miami Heat. "I'd get to the office at 7:30 in the morning, and I'd be the last coach there.''

    He kept arriving earlier and earlier until he realized that Van Gundy, as Pat Riley's lead assistant, was coming in shortly after 6 a.m. "And that,'' Iavaroni says, "was in the summertime.''

    Everything Iavaroni can write on his résumé has been earned the hard way. The 6-foot-8 forward spent three years in Europe before playing his way into the NBA as a 26-year-old rookie starter for the 1982-83 champion Philadelphia 76ers, launching his seven-year career.

    Today Iavaroni is the top assistant to Suns coach Mike D'Antoni, and arguably the No. 1 candidate heading into the summer free-for-all for NBA head-coaching positions, with as many as six jobs potentially available. (For other top candidates, click here.)

    This opportunity arrives after a long decade of working his way up the staffs of three Coaches of the Year -- Mike Fratello in Cleveland (1997-99), Riley ('99-02) and D'Antoni.

    The overriding question is whether Iavaroni's renowned intensity will be his strength or his weakness as a head coach. Is he too demanding to develop a long-term partnership with NBA players? He is aware of that issue, which is why he is proud of his four seasons with D'Antoni, who has helped broaden Iavaroni's relationships with players as well as his vision for how the game should be played.

    "I'm a perfectionist,'' admits Iavaroni, 50. "I always have to remind myself that you can't be a perfectionist with everyone else all the time, that it's too much. I've learned that you have to pick your spots.

    "I really like being a cheerleader for players. I love when they do things right, and applauding it, and I've learned that's a lot more motivational than stopping practice and teaching and telling them all of the things they didn't do. You don't want to stop practice -- I learned that from Mike. You want these guys to play it out.

    "I've learned that you've got to be positive,'' adds Iavaroni, who then tells a story from his first coaching season in 1992-93 as an assistant at Bowling Green to Jim Larranaga (who last year took George Mason to the Final Four). While meeting with his players during a rough stretch, Larranaga opened the floor for comments.

    "One of the players said, 'Everybody's cool but coach Iavaroni -- you're negative,' '' Iavaroni recalls. "Here I was a neophyte coach, but I'd been a pro player, and now a guy at a mid-major said I was negative. I had a hard time believing him.

    "But it was an epiphany. I realized you've got to treat them like you like them and believe in them, and if you show confidence in them, they'll respond. At the end of the year, one of the players told me, 'You've turned it around.' ''

    No coach is without a blind spot. They all need help shoring up their areas of weakness. When Iavaroni is running his own team, he would do well to hire a staff led by someone like current Suns assistant Alvin Gentry, a former head coach who relates to people and who would help Iavaroni realize when to take his foot off the gas.

    "Pat Riley had the players playing good defense, and Mike Fratello was also a great defensive coach,'' Iavaroni says. "But being with Mike [D'Antoni] has been like a finishing school for me, not just in his offensive ideas and how to get players to play confidently and freely and creatively, but Mike is also really good at having a strong bond with players without crossing a line. He's a great listener.

    "I used to be a really conservative coach, just a defensive guy because that's what got me playing time. Now with Mike I realize the best part is when you turn a player onto himself. I would rather have a few less plays and defensive schemes, but really believe in the players and believe they will figure it out. If you're focusing on the X's and O's, that means you're figuring it out all the time. The players have got to be the ones to figure it out.''

    There may be questions of what has taken Iavaroni so long to earn a head-coaching offer. If he is so strong a candidate, then why have the past two summers come and gone without an offer coming his way?

    But this as a ridiculous perspective. Since when has on-the-job experience ever been a weakness? When Larry Bird stepped down as coach in 2000 after three winning years with the Pacers, he admitted that he still had a lot to learn about running an NBA team. If he was ever going to return as a head coach -- which he swore would never happen -- he said he'd want to spend an extended period as an assistant learning from one of the best NBA coaches. In this era of celebrity hires, Iavaroni is someone who is working to meet Bird's high standard of apprenticeship.

    (To finish the context, Bird is applying the same course of study to his new career as a team executive by spending the last four years as understudy to Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh.)

    "He'll be a great head coach,'' says D'Antoni. "The biggest thing he has going for him is his passion for the game and his work ethic. I guarantee you no one will outwork him.''

    Another promising sign from Iavaroni is that he isn't willing to make promises he can't keep. When I ask whether his team would seek to play Rileyesque defense as well as D'Antoni-paced offense, he says, "I'm not sure you can do it. The players have a finite amount of energy. I would figure it out when I'd see the team I have, whether we were going to be more into defense or more into offense and running.

    "But we played 110 games last year [including the Suns' preseason and playoff schedules] and I don't think you can expect guys to be balls-out every minute at both ends. You have to accept certain limitations, otherwise you get players who are not effective and pissed off. While you want to consistently push players, you've got to know what's reasonable. You want to get it right to that edge of asking too much.''

    Iavaroni would prefer to coach a running team. "I really believe teams are at their weakest [defensively] at the beginning of the shot clock,'' he says. "Teams are not set defensively, it's exciting to watch and it's democratic, though you can still get the ball to your best players. But to do that you've got to have skilled players and shooters and people who are good at running. If you have a bunch of slow guys, obviously it's not going to work. I'd want to be with a GM who likes to run, who wants to run, and who's always going to be on the lookout for players who run well and play at that pace.''
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

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    Member bulldog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    While D'Antoni is a brilliant coach, and his style has been a sorely-needed breath of fresh air for the NBA, I would like to point out that the style of play epitomized by Pat Riley, Van Gundy, and yes, Rick Carslisle, has had a successful 20 year track record in the NBA. Let's take a minute before we cast doubt on the whole style, as opposed to just the particular personalities involved.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
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    While D'Antoni is a brilliant coach, and his style has been a sorely-needed breath of fresh air for the NBA, I would like to point out that the style of play epitomized by Pat Riley, Van Gundy, and yes, Rick Carslisle, has had a successful 20 year track record in the NBA. Let's take a minute before we cast doubt on the whole style, as opposed to just the particular personalities involved.
    I see players running thru walls for the first two names you mentioned because they have personalities and people skills that have proven to work with their players, but Carlisle's "style" isn't working here and I'm tired of taking hits on talent to get players to make Carlisle's style work here. It's just time for a new message and messenger.

    Anyway, I'm ready for a coaching staff that will develop our players better then what we have. Once more, Rick is a good coach, but not the right guy for our current and future situation.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    I found the following to be the most profound statement from the interview:

    "If you're focusing on the X's and O's, that means you're figuring it out all the time. The players have got to be the ones to figure it out.''

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Well, to be short...Carlisle's "style" isn't working here and I'm tired of taking hits on talent to get players to make Carlisle's style work here.
    Do you really think that is why Artest, Jackson and Harrington were traded? I certainly don't. Sure there was a lot of talk about Dunleavy and Murphy "fitting the system". But that had all to do with JO, not Rick Carlisle.

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    I found the following to be the most profound statement from the interview:

    "If you're focusing on the X's and O's, that means you're figuring it out all the time. The players have got to be the ones to figure it out.''
    It's pretty easy to let players as talented as Steve Nash to figure it out. All our problems would be cured if we were able to switch out Tinsley and Nash.

    I wouldn't give Jamaal the keys to my car so he could get me a hamburger, let alone keys to my NBA team.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by jcouts View Post
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    In particular, the areas in bold...


    Another promising sign from Iavaroni is that he isn't willing to make promises he can't keep. When I ask whether his team would seek to play Rileyesque defense as well as D'Antoni-paced offense, he says, "I'm not sure you can do it. The players have a finite amount of energy. I would figure it out when I'd see the team I have, whether we were going to be more into defense or more into offense and running.

    I'm not sure why you want Rick to read this article unless you want him to read about his possible replacement.


    I think the paragraph above is the most interesting. It is true, you can't get a team to play defense like the Spurs, and at the same time run like the Suns. Teams don't have that much energy, unless you play everybody 24 minutes and rotate players in and out.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Do you really think that is why Artest, Jackson and Harrington were traded? I certainly don't. Sure there was a lot of talk about Dunleavy and Murphy "fitting the system". But that had all to do with JO, not Rick Carlisle.
    Maybe you're right...maybe I am jumping the gun a bit by saying trades of the past, but I have a hard time believing that the low post offense that Rick runs is the only one out there that will work. Isn't it the coach's job to build an offense that works and then have the players buy into it? He sure sells it, but judging by the players that have left here...none of them were buying.

    Maybe a coach with a little more "people skills" could get these players to actually buy into a system instead of the mess we have now and for the past 2 seasons.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Maybe you're right...maybe I am jumping the gun a bit by saying trades of the past, but I have a hard time believing that the low post offense that Rick runs is the only one out there that will work. Isn't it the coach's job to build an offense that works and then have the players buy into it? He sure sells it, but judging by the players that have left here...none of them were buying.

    Maybe a coach with a little more "people skills" could get these players to actually buy into a system instead of the mess we have now and for the past 2 seasons.
    I like Carlisle on the average.

    But I really got a bad taste after he did that suck up thing with Jax over the summer saying he was waiting for Jackson to buy in to his coaching before he was ready to move forward. Just seemed weak, especially with all of Jackson's foibles. Bad judgment, lack of confidence, and I'm not sure what else.

    Still, on the average, I think he's a good coach. But he doesn't seem very street smart.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Member jcouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm not sure why you want Rick to read this article unless you want him to read about his possible replacement.


    I think the paragraph above is the most interesting. It is true, you can't get a team to play defense like the Spurs, and at the same time run like the Suns. Teams don't have that much energy, unless you play everybody 24 minutes and rotate players in and out.
    The main reason I think that Rick needs to read the article mainly focuses on the X's and O's paragraph. The handful of games I have been able to watch the Pacers play from Denver this season, the players have just looked like robots, programmed to go through a certain motion, and if that certain motion didn't work, failure was inevitable because they had no clue what to do otherwise. The Sacto game with Armstrong's famous statements was a prime example.

    It's somewhat comparable to having a boss at work who won't let you put your personal stamp on anything, or limits what the business can do by only implementing their own ideas...or by expecting you to do only what the person in your position before you did. My boss, for example, only knows about 2% of what I know when it comes to programming and database administration...yet, there was a point in time when I wasn't allowed to do anything, or create anything, or propose anything...the only thing I was allowed to do was essentially be the "screwdriver" that put her plans/ideas into place. It limited my effectiveness as an employee and as a team player, and limited the IT resources and advantages of our company. In the corporate workplace, we all know it as micromanagement. In basketball, it's somewhat "Carlisle ball".

    With the NBA finals squad, the coaches didn't reign in Reggie, Mark, or anyone except maybe Jalen. Carlisle seems to only turn loose players that already have a formed identity, such as JO on the current roster. Most of the rest of our squad is still soul searching for their NBA identity, or trying to establish a new identity. The players in the past that Carlisle has allowed free reign in the offense have all been players with an established identity (JO, Reggie, Mark, Mullin). Those who are soul searching, he reigns in (Jalen, Jamaal, Danny, Ike, Marquis). It strikes a trend of the rich get richer, ie good players get better under Carlisle, while young players don't develop as well. With Detroit, Billups and Hamilton both became superb players under Carlisle...Tayshaun however, didn't become the player he is until Larry Brown stepped in. Inexperienced players are only going to get wiser and better with experience, and I don't think that Carlisle trusts younger players. Hence Tinsley getting replaced with Kenny Anderson and AJ when Carlisle arrived. Sarunas, nothing. Freddie, very little. James Jones, very little. Baston, nothing. Harrison, nothing. While all of that is going on, Darrell Armstrong is earning all sorts of praise and AJ played the best basketball of his life under Carlisle.

    So, to sum it up, I agree with Iavaroni's statement in that paragraph. I think you have to let the players figure some of it out. Ginobili wasn't that effective of a player until Pop turned him loose...Pop stated that yes, playing that way he would have occasional turnovers, and take a few bad shots, but he would just have to live with it, because the benefits of turning him loose as a whole far outweighed the setbacks of a few turnovers or premature shots. If a player can't play to their instincts, half of their advantages are gone.
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Iavaroni would be one of my top choices as our new coach this offseason.

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    where do i sign this guy up to be our coach ?
    If you havin' depth problems, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but a bench ain't one! - Hicks
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I see players running thru walls for the first two names you mentioned because they have personalities and people skills that have proven to work with their players, but Carlisle's "style" isn't working here and I'm tired of taking hits on talent to get players to make Carlisle's style work here. It's just time for a new message and messenger.

    Anyway, I'm ready for a coaching staff that will develop our players better then what we have. Once more, Rick is a good coach, but not the right guy for our current and future situation.
    Neither is a coach who thinks the players can make the choices, wants players who can make shots, or expects even a little bit of defensive awareness.

    Other than that and the fact that the GM he will be working for seems borderline lost at times he'll have no problems in Indy.


    Meanwhile as B-dog points out, what have the Suns done that Rick's Pacers haven't? Won 60, make the conference finals. Awesome. Hey, we should get that coach that made back to back conference finals with different clubs....err...

    Maybe once was smoke and mirrors, but twice? Ron Artest goes totally mental for 3 months under Zeke, RC comes in, gets on him early (suspended I think even) and Ron plays a full season with no problems, even catches himself going out to get involved in a brawl and instead turns around. That was just a fluke?

    How many AS teams has Ron Artest been on? Who got him there? Now tell me a more problematic player in the entire NBA right now.

    But the coach had nothing to do with that. Just pure coincidence, he showed up just when Ron decided to settle down and dial it in for a year.

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But the coach had nothing to do with that. Just pure coincidence, he showed up just when Ron decided to settle down and dial it in for a year.

    I think it was having Mike Brown around as much as it was Carlisle.


    Anyways, we can look at the problems, or:

    Every year since Rick's been here, the Pacers record has decreased.

    The players started tuning him out long ago; I'd say before the MLK day blowout vs. New Jersey even.

    Every player that has left here has complained about his coaching style, and Harrington/Jax have not only played at a much higher level, but they've shown much more passion and a willingness to play for their coach. Oh, and Harrington looks physically fit now, since Golden State's training staff cares.




    Everyone can talk on and on about how the Pacers don't have that much talent, but give me a break. We're not THAT bad..we're no 2-16 bad, and everyone knows it.


    How many games have we lost because our offense went into a dump it into Jermaine mode, making the opponent rest on defense while we go ice cold and they get red hot?

    Or, how many times did our worst defender play the ENTIRE second half when defense was our problem?

    Or, how many times has Rick Carlisle matched Tinsley with Armstrong, Dunleavy, and Murphy, effectively leaving us with our four worst defenders on the floor at the same time?

    I'm not even getting into the way he has inconsistent rotations, f'ed with Granger's head, or decided to keep Marshall rather than White when he KNEW how bad our PG situation is.

    I have a lot of respect for Rick, especially with his consistency in his mood, but I think he doesn't know how to use his players effectively. Meanwhile, I'm watching Golden State. We all know Harrington and Jackson can't run the break. So what happens? Nelson holds them back on breaks and lets the other players convert, while leaving Harrington and Jackson effective in the halfcourt.


    Now I can't think of a coach that would be worth bringing in, but I said over a month ago it was obvious that Rick needed to be gone. And at the time I wondered what it would take for other people to realize it. And I guess at 2-16 it still isn't there. ::shrugs::

  15. #15

    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Just look at the last few bolded sentences. You need athletic players, players who can run and who can shoot, and a GM who likes players that do both.

    THAT does not describe the Pacers at all. And neither has anything to do with Rick Carlisle.

    This team has exactly one player who can play uptempo and that is Tinsley. Probably Shawne as well. So that's two at best.

    The Suns have a truly incredible roster, from a talent standpoint. Everyone can run. Everyone can take the ball to the basket. Everyone has range. Everyone can shoot free throws. I mean, from the 1 to the 5 to the bench players.

    Believe me, I'm all for the run-n-gun style of offense that Phoenix plays. It's part of why I've adopted them as my 2nd favorite team. But there's no way the Pacers could ever do anywhere near that kind of tempo.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat
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    Rick...decided to keep Marshall rather than White when he KNEW how bad our PG situation is.
    First of all, that was not Rick's decision to make...He is not the GM. That lies squarely with mgmt.

    Second, that was a GREAT decision. James White came into preseason as if he was a veteran starter, not by effort, but by attitude. While White came out trying to look "Too cool for school" in his approach to the preseason, Rawle came out like a lion DOING everything to tell mgmt. he was not the guy to cut.

    I'm so sick of hearing about how cutting White was a bad decision because Rawle is not contributing right now. James White didn't win the job over Rawle. Rawle & Powell clearly made the team over White.

    I don't care what James White did in summer league.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    I really hope Rick doesn't read this board.

    Rick, if you're reading this, turn off the computer and go play the piano or something.
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    First of all, that was not Rick's decision to make...He is not the GM. That lies squarely with mgmt.
    Maybe you missed the quote where Rick said cutting White was "the hardest decision I've had to make". Or maybe the new mgmt. title that Rick got three weeks before the cut. Or both.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Second, that was a GREAT decision. James White came into preseason as if he was a veteran starter, not by effort, but by attitude. While White came out trying to look "Too cool for school" in his approach to the preseason, Rawle came out like a lion DOING everything to tell mgmt. he was not the guy to cut.
    Actually, that's slightly revisionistic. The truth is that Rawle had a strong start to the preseason and faded off before the last cut was made, averaging 6.6 points a game without showing a shot or defense. Rawle was penciled in as making the cut after two preseason games, and then it was Powell who came on strong to compete for the final spot. Not that White's preseason was much better, but there was a reason everyone was shocked that Marshall made it over White.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I'm so sick of hearing about how cutting White was a bad decision because Rawle is not contributing right now.
    What would change that for you? We had an incumbent starter, one key reserve who'd previously played that position, and another player brought over to fill in at shooting guard. Meanwhile we had no depth at point guard. It was known before the season began that we would have trouble at pg, and White showed he was a capable and willing at the 1. You tell me what the use of keeping Rawle was.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Maybe you missed the quote where Rick said cutting White was "the hardest decision I've had to make". Or maybe the new mgmt. title that Rick got three weeks before the cut. Or both.
    I think the quote was that it was the hardest decision he's been involved with, not that he's made.....
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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Maybe you missed the quote where Rick said cutting White was "the hardest decision I've had to make". Or maybe the new mgmt. title that Rick got three weeks before the cut. Or both.
    If I missed it, my bad...I'm sorry. Usually those decisions fall on managment with input from the coaching staff.

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat
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    Actually, that's slightly revisionistic. The truth is that Rawle had a strong start to the preseason and faded off before the last cut was made, averaging 6.6 points a game without showing a shot or defense. Rawle was penciled in as making the cut after two preseason games, and then it was Powell who came on strong to compete for the final spot. Not that White's preseason was much better, but there was a reason everyone was shocked that Marshall made it over White.
    I'm not saying I'm a guru or anything..far from it in fact, but it was evident that Rawle seemed further along in development then what James White was. Anyway, the ONLY reason for the shock had to deal with the fact that we gave up "2" 2nd round draft picks to select White, then just cut the guy. That was the only shock amoung most. Yes, White was a tremendous dunker, but he did not show ANYTHING ELSE that made him better the Rawle. In the preseason, White looked lost on the floor, his shot was tenative to say the least, and if his attitude was as poor as some mentioned for being a 2nd round Rookie. I think mgmt. made the right choice!


    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat
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    What would change that for you? We had an incumbent starter, one key reserve who'd previously played that position, and another player brought over to fill in at shooting guard. Meanwhile we had no depth at point guard. It was known before the season began that we would have trouble at pg, and White showed he was a capable and willing at the 1. You tell me what the use of keeping Rawle was.
    James White was not a point guard. He did NOT show that he was capable to play minutes at point in the NBA!!! Granted, I can only go off what I seen in the preseason. I did watch with great interest James White off the ball considering I was at ALL the pre-season games here. Honestly, I was not impressed with James White. I'm just lost at all the blame going to anyone that felt the same.

    BOTTOM LINE---
    Either the coaching staff, or managment felt that he was not worth keeping after spending 2 draft picks on him not to mention the guaranteed contract. To me, that says it all!!! James didn't belong here. He was beat out by a guy that was salary filler and was expected to be cut. James was the last guy standing up when the music stopped.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  21. #21
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Every player that has left here has complained about his coaching style, and Harrington/Jax have not only played at a much higher level, but they've shown much more passion and a willingness to play for their coach.
    Come on man.

    Jack
    IND 42%, 30%, 3.1 apg, 2.6 rpg, .89 steals, 1.41 A/TO
    GS 43%, 33%, 4.4 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.31 steals, 1.59 A/TO

    Al
    IND 46%, 46%!!!, 1.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, .69 steals, 0.56 A/TO
    GS 46%, 43%, 2.3 apg, 6.4 rpg, .91 steals, 1.12 A/TO

    Plus Jack's Pacer numbers include his terrible NOV shooting. After that he was actually shooting better for Indy than he has in GS. Regardless the numbers are almost identical, except that GS plays more uptempo and did before Jack/Al got there, as well as playing worse defense with Jack/Al than the Pacers did with Jack/Al.

    They only seem "much" better because they weren't doing nearly as bad in Indy as fans believed. They weren't great, but they were good enough to win some games. That's all they are doing in GS.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Come on man.

    Jack
    IND 42%, 30%, 3.1 apg, 2.6 rpg, .89 steals, 1.41 A/TO
    GS 43%, 33%, 4.4 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.31 steals, 1.59 A/TO

    Al
    IND 46%, 46%!!!, 1.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, .69 steals, 0.56 A/TO
    GS 46%, 43%, 2.3 apg, 6.4 rpg, .91 steals, 1.12 A/TO

    Plus Jack's Pacer numbers include his terrible NOV shooting. After that he was actually shooting better for Indy than he has in GS. Regardless the numbers are almost identical, except that GS plays more uptempo and did before Jack/Al got there, as well as playing worse defense with Jack/Al than the Pacers did with Jack/Al.

    They only seem "much" better because they weren't doing nearly as bad in Indy as fans believed. They weren't great, but they were good enough to win some games. That's all they are doing in GS.

    Have you been watching any GS games lately? Aside from improving in almost every statistical category, their effort and energy has been much, much better. Harrington looks like a different guy. I thought his effort near the time of the trade was due to a honeymoon period, but he's still at that level.

    You KNOW that Harrington's stats were better than his performance in Indy, Seth. That's not the case anymore, and except for attitude, Stephen is the same way in GS. No longer see the 2-3 bonehead plays/game from him, defense is better (somehow), and he's more effective on offense.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I'm not saying I'm a guru or anything..far from it in fact, but it was evident that Rawle seemed further along in development then what James White was. Anyway, the ONLY reason for the shock had to deal with the fact that we gave up "2" 2nd round draft picks to select White, then just cut the guy. That was the only shock amoung most. Yes, White was a tremendous dunker, but he did not show ANYTHING ELSE that made him better the Rawle. In the preseason, White looked lost on the floor, his shot was tenative to say the least, and if his attitude was as poor as some mentioned for being a 2nd round Rookie. I think mgmt. made the right choice!

    Yeah, you're probably right. I'm sure most of the shock was that we expected him to make the team because of what we gave up, not his performance. His preseason was pretty bad, and Rawle certainly had a very strong start in terms of running the floor well, which is what the Pacers wanted to do better at that time.




    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    James White was not a point guard. He did NOT show that he was capable to play minutes at point in the NBA!!! Granted, I can only go off what I seen in the preseason. I did watch with great interest James White off the ball considering I was at ALL the pre-season games here. Honestly, I was not impressed with James White. I'm just lost at all the blame going to anyone that felt the same.


    I know you said you didn't care about the summer league, and I know the talent he played against wasn't great, but he was great at the point in the summer league. Literally, great. He always made the right decision with the ball and didn't allow dribble penetration (I'm sure Seth remembers this because I remember talking about with him at the time). And he outperformed other teams' first round picks on a gamely basis. Preseason was a completely different story; night and day. They also didn't run him at the point in the preseason like they did the summer league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    BOTTOM LINE---
    Either the coaching staff, or managment felt that he was not worth keeping after spending 2 draft picks on him not to mention the guaranteed contract. To me, that says it all!!! James didn't belong here. He was beat out by a guy that was salary filler and was expected to be cut. James was the last guy standing up when the music stopped.

    It doesn't say much to me given that Larry thought Baston was the best free-agent PF on the market and that he thought Sarunas would be a very good contributor. Then again, I'm 99.99% sure it was Rick's cut to make with the support of Donnie/Larry and the owners, so Larry's scouting skills aren't the issue. Rick actually justified making the cut based on what you just said. I think you can find the quote on the Pacers.com news archive.

    But my point is more about what you do with the 12th man. Logically, the 12th man isn't going to have much of a "positive" impact on a team, but it can definitely be a hinderance. And given the lack of depth, proneness to injury (JT), age (DA), lack of experience (OG), and inability to play the PG position (SJ), it would've made a lot more sense to keep a player who could play both PG and SG as an insurance policy.

  24. #24
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    You KNOW that Harrington's stats were better than his performance in Indy, Seth. That's not the case anymore, and except for attitude, Stephen is the same way in GS. No longer see the 2-3 bonehead plays/game from him, defense is better (somehow), and he's more effective on offense.
    Isn't it odd that those subjective things don't translate into big objective differences.


    "I'm trying a lot harder now but my race time is still the same. However it's a nicer looking same."

    "Still finished last buddy, no matter how nice it looked."


    I've read some GS fan complaints about Jack's poor choices in some games, and even in PxP of games I had to follow online he's put up some typical 3pt duds late in games, just like in Indy. He just gets a pass now because he's not a Pacer. Just like all players are better with other teams because fans don't have to die with the faults. True for players coming or going.

    In other words, their effort here wasn't that bad. Al maybe hit a skid for about the final 2 weeks...maybe. But the complaints about his rebounding wouldn't be gone right now.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Rick Carlisle, if you check this board, you should read this article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Isn't it odd that those subjective things don't translate into big objective differences.


    "I'm trying a lot harder now but my race time is still the same. However it's a nicer looking same."

    "Still finished last buddy, no matter how nice it looked."


    You mean like Derrick McKey and Dale Davis' games? You know their stats didn't even come close to showing their value. Sometimes it works the opposite way; look at Zach Randolph.


    Just because we don't have objective stats for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We've even talked about Granger's game not being as good as the numbers suggest; he'll hit two three pointers in a blowout w/ 30 seconds left, finish with 13 points, and look like he had a decent game. Meanwhile, he's spent the entire game camping at the 3 point line and getting lost on defense.


    Al and Stephen, imo, are playing much, much better in GS than in IN. And yes, effort is noticeable and does make a much bigger difference than it would in a race, even if it doesn't show up in the stats. If you get a chance to watch a GS game soon you should. You'll notice it within minutes; that's how obvious it is.

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