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Thread: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

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    Default Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...35/1004/SPORTS

    March 29, 2007


    Bob Kravitz
    What's the point? Go ahead and tank it

    Tank it.

    That's the thought that kept running through my head Tuesday night, sitting and watching the Pacers lose their 15th out of 17 games, watching the Cleveland Cavaliers toy with the home team, watching the Pacers' doomed season circle the drain one more time.

    Seriously.

    Tank it.

    Like, how about telling Jermaine O'Neal, "Look, that knee isn't getting any better, and we think it's time to shut you down?"

    What about giving Jamaal Tinsley the rest of the season off, just to save the Pacer Nation the horror of watching him play perimeter defense?

    How about Jeff Foster, who left Tuesday's game with the Cavaliers because of back spasms? Those things need time, you know.

    The point is, with the Pacers' season right now, there is no point. You say there's a breakneck playoff race for the final spot in the Eastern Conference? Sure. And you could feel the energy Tuesday, when a whisper more than 14,000 showed up, mostly to watch LeBron James. The truth is, this franchise is as irrelevant as it has ever been, and that won't change with a five-game-long playoff series against Detroit or whomever.

    Tanking it -- sorry, let's call it "coming down with a case of convenient ineptitude" -- serves two purposes.

    First and foremost, it gets the Pacers in a better position to win one of the top 10 lottery spots. The Pacers, of course, dealt their first-round pick to Atlanta in the Al Harrington trade. (Maybe you remember the "Baby Al Is Back!" era. It lasted about 10 minutes.) The good news is, if the Pacers' draft pick is in the top 10, they keep it. But if they draft beyond the 10th spot -- which is where they are this minute -- Atlanta gets the pick.

    I figure, if you're going to have a horrible season, there might as well be some kind of payoff, right?

    With all due respect to the bottom line of owners Mel and Herb Simon, the worst thing the Pacers can do right now is fight and scratch their way into the playoffs. Or be just good enough to finish outside of the top 10, which would be a double-whammy. Miss the playoffs and lose their only draft pick.

    By my way of thinking, tanking it serves another purpose.

    It gives us a chance to see what the young players can do.
    Let's see what Shawne Williams can do with more than four minutes of playing time. The Pacers didn't see fit to send him to the developmental league, so give him some meaningful court time now.

    Let's see what Ike Diogu can do. He was the wild card in the big deal with Golden State, and it's still hard to figure if he's going to be a player. The early returns have not been good -- the next time he passes out of the post will be the first -- but there is no way of truly knowing unless he gets time.

    Let's see what David Harrison looks like in a uniform. This has been a lost season for Harrison, who has shown glimpses when he isn't committing four fouls in three minutes of play. Give him a map to the floor and see if he's got a future.

    How about Orien Greene? Or Keith McLeod? Are either of these guys keepers?

    Every time Maceo Baston plays, he gives them some production -- or at least good effort -- but he's buried at the end of the bench. Bringing a guy in from Israel, that's a long way to go for him to be a "DNP-Coach's Decision" almost every night.

    Look, the Pacers know what they have with their other players.

    And the answer is, not much.

    Think O'Neal isn't painfully aware this team isn't going anywhere, this year or for the foreseeable future? He's going to want out -- I couldn't blame him -- and the Pacers would be smart to cut the cord. O'Neal and Danny Granger are the only tradable commodities, and you've got to figure O'Neal would be the centerpiece of a deal that gets the rebuilding job under way.

    The midseason trade, the one that led to the Pacers falling off a cliff, has been, to be kind, a disaster.

    To paraphrase former Arizona Cardinals coach Dennis Green, when it comes to Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy, they are who we thought they were. They're complimentary players on a good team, but nothing more. And they own long-term deals that will shackle the Pacers for some time to come.

    Here's where it gets dicey, though. Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh seem singularly unwilling to pooch-punt this season and acknowledge the house has to be razed before it's rebuilt. And if Rick Carlisle's job is on the line, there's no way he's going to agree to take more lumps on his way out the door. He's here to win, not set the table for the next coach.

    The best thing that can happen is, all of this takes care of itself and the Pacers continue to lose even when they're not actively trying to tank the season.

    Based on their play the past month or so, I think they're up to the challenge.







  2. #2
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Kravitz channels his inner Bball. If he starts talking about gigs and the price of quality A/V cables I'm going to be officially scared......
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    The man once again proves he's a wizz in cut&paste

    IMO he should stop reading PD, it doesn't improve his "vision".

    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    It is scary how much that article looks like it was lifted straight off of Pacers Digest. I'm seriously suspicious.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    The man once again proves he's a wizz in cut&paste

    IMO he should stop reading PD, it doesn't improve his "vision".

    Give the man credit, wouldn't he be foolish to go somewhere else for his information?
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Maybe if we all start channeling some absurd line of thought we can know for sure.

    Quick, everyone start saying "Librarians are hiding something, and it's Donnie Walsh's fault!"

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    It's not like it's some irrelevant topic. It's probably the biggest issue in Pacer-land right now, so what else is he suppose to talk about?

    And I agree with him for the most part. If we could jump into the bottom-6 (currently 3 games back, but playing far worse than any of the teams between us and #6) then we'd have a legit shot at jumping into the top-3. Or at the very least, a top-6 pick in talent-filled draft. Hell, we could trade #6 down to #10-14 and still probably pick up Conley or Law and an extra 1st to boot.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    The Pacers are really screwing up the Pistons' draft position.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    What I love about Kravitz is he tells the Pacers they should have traded Artest sooner, should have traded Jackson sooner and he's been telling all the world that they should have traded Tinsley long ago. How many one-liners have we read from him about trading Artest for a bag of chips, about trading Jackson for a second round draft pick in the year 2025 and about trading Tinsley for any point guard that can walk.

    But then when the Pacers trade these guys, Bob is the first one to rip the trade. And suggest that the "trade hasn't worked out" Bob we got more than you wanted us to get

    How many times has he said they need to blow the team up and start over and yet when they make a major trade to "start over" he criticizes it.

    And I'll never forget Bob was the one who recommended the Pacers not trade Artest in the summer of '04 when there were some McGrady rumors.

    When Tinsley is traded as Bob has wanted for a few years, he'll be the first one to rip the Pacers and say they didn't get enough.


    Bob, and everyone else, if I ever think the Pacers are tanking a game or a series of games (tanking means to lose on purpose) I will demand my money back and if the pacers won't give it to me, then I'll pester Bob until he does.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    We have - what - 4 guys left from 04/05?

    Foster - perfect role player, one of two inside men who can defend.
    Tinsley - tough to move.
    Harrison - rookie contract big.
    JO - our lone genuine star.

    If that isn't a 2 year "raze" job, I don't know what is.

    Does Bob "I-get-my-info-and-opinions-from-anonymous-web-fan-forums-and-sell-it-all-for-money" Kravitz want a team of nothing but rookies?
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Kravitz' article does look familiar, but common sense is usually pretty familiar.

    However, I would not at all be surprised if he reads Pacer digest. In today's world, it would be professional malpractice for a sports writer not to do so.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    For those who would like to.....this is not a joke:

    http://www.cathedral-irish.org/uploa...tfactsheet.pdf
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    For those who would like to.....this is not a joke:

    http://www.cathedral-irish.org/uploa...tfactsheet.pdf
    Interesting Geez, however a water tank and a bucket of balls would work just as well for me.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    It is scary how much that article looks like it was lifted straight off of Pacers Digest. I'm seriously suspicious.
    For once, I completely agree with Kravitz...or at least...he completely agrees with many of us on PD.

    Too bad it took him this long for him to figure it out.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    I am with some others on this board in that common thoughts will intersect somewhere. It's kind of hard to write something novel when there is only a common thread.

    I have to say though, there is a big difference in being bad and being pathetic and I just crossed over to the "we are pathetic" side. This is just painful for me to read how some of these teams (NEW JERSEY!) just ream us. If, indeed, players have tuned Carlisle out as some have suggested I might recommend they get some high quality hearing aids because they aren't doing themselves any favors.

    Wait, nix that, Tinsley doesn't need the hearing aids.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Very good article. I agree almost entirely.

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    I'd be perfectly fine at this point with sitting JO and Jeff for as long as need-be and forcing Rick to play the young guys. But I don't condone intentionally giving a half-assed effort, trying to lose games.

    We also may as well get Dun and Murph used to coming off the bench, because neither is a starter on a contending team.

    Diogu
    Harrison
    Granger
    Williams
    Tinsley

    Those are the starters I'd like to see, starting with the Orlando game.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    For those of you who don't know it's pretty much accepted PD lour that from time to time Kravitz crashes the forum parties. I'd bet Kegboy's paycheck that the old dude with the computer at the Apr 2006 party was Kravitz. I'm starting to wonder if crichard is really just a badger in kids clothing.


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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    I used to think Kravitz had no clue what he was talking about, but looking back if he were running thsi team we would almost certainly be better.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and PHONE it in (the article I mean)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow-footed Hack
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    I figure, if you're going to have a horrible season, there might as well be some kind of payoff, right?
    And I figure that if you are going to give Atlanta a pick it might as well be the 15th this year rather than the 9th next year or the 6th the year after that.

    Acie Law is a REACH. He's not shown any NBA level talent, he looks solid in college. He MIGHT become something, but many, many players looked better than him in college and became nothing.

    The Pacers HAVE to get Mateen Cleeves. Let's tank to get Cleeves, he'll fix everything. No thanks. If things are going this bad now what are they going to look like next year?

    And then at some point you remove JO from the list (maybe when he walks) and build with Law-Dun-Granger-Ike-Murph, have a few more terrible years and watch ATL take your #1 pick in 2010 when Tim Duncan part 2 comes out, a guy you don't even know about.


    To me this pick is like ball possession in college. Sure when the arrow is against you a jump doesn't get you the ball...but it does get you the arrow. In this case once the arrow flips it never goes back to ATL. To me the safety of future picks is just as important as getting the #9 this year.



    Meanwhile everyone listening to Bob needs to go check the archive on his Colts comments from the beginning of the 13-0 season. Yeah, he's got real vision.

    If you are negative then he's your messiah. Jesus Sourpuss, not to be confused with the RayRay character.


    BTW, I suggest the Pacers use the pick to get this guy...
    NBA Comparison: Scottie Pippen

    Strengths: Very good athlete, can shoot with super range. He has abilities almost never found in a 6-9 player. His offensive potential is limitless. He has one of the silkiest touches from outside, combine that with great handles and super athleticism and you have a special talent. He can play the 1,2, or 3 positions and is a very good passer.
    Spoiler Spoiler:

    Can't freaking miss pick right there.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    What I love about Kravitz is he tells the Pacers they should have traded Artest sooner, should have traded Jackson sooner and he's been telling all the world that they should have traded Tinsley long ago. How many one-liners have we read from him about trading Artest for a bag of chips, about trading Jackson for a second round draft pick in the year 2025 and about trading Tinsley for any point guard that can walk.

    But then when the Pacers trade these guys, Bob is the first one to rip the trade. And suggest that the "trade hasn't worked out" Bob we got more than you wanted us to get

    How many times has he said they need to blow the team up and start over and yet when they make a major trade to "start over" he criticizes it.

    And I'll never forget Bob was the one who recommended the Pacers not trade Artest in the summer of '04 when there were some McGrady rumors.

    When Tinsley is traded as Bob has wanted for a few years, he'll be the first one to rip the Pacers and say they didn't get enough.


    Bob, and everyone else, if I ever think the Pacers are tanking a game or a series of games (tanking means to lose on purpose) I will demand my money back and if the pacers won't give it to me, then I'll pester Bob until he does.
    QFT. And that's all there really is to say.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Maybe if we all start channeling some absurd line of thought we can know for sure.

    Quick, everyone start saying "Librarians are hiding something, and it's Donnie Walsh's fault!"
    BRILLIANT!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Giving up their pick next year doesn't mean the Pacers won't HAVE a draft pick next year. It just gives them more time to get the best possible offer for O'Neal and/or Tinsley or whoever. The Pacers have an entire year to figure out how to get into next year's draft, so that is not some significant loss when you consider that wholesale changes are pretty much confirmed at this point.

    And calling Acie Law a reach is pretty silly. He is the total package as far as PG go. He is exactly what the Pacers need, a PG who can not only penetrate but SHOOT as well (and I like Tinsley) and play defense.

    By your logic in referencing Dermarr Johnson, teams should stay away from Greg Oden because of Kwame Brown. You wanna read the scouting reports on Kwame from before he was drafted?

    The Pacers have holes on the team. The sooner they stop filling the round ones with square pegs, the better. The sooner they stop beating around the bush regarding personell problems, the better.

    I don't know how you can be against the Pacers picking up Law/Conley this season if you are a Pacers fan. It WILL make them better for the long-term.

    Playing the status quo and trying to squeeze blood from a stone is what got the franchise into the web of mediocrity that it is now in.

  24. #24
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and TANK it

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Kravitz channels his inner Bball. If he starts talking about gigs and the price of quality A/V cables I'm going to be officially scared......
    It is clear the man is brilliant!

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

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    Default Re: Kravitz: What's the point? Go ahead and PHONE it in (the article I mean)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And I figure that if you are going to give Atlanta a pick it might as well be the 15th this year rather than the 9th next year or the 6th the year after that.
    I figure if we're gonna keep a pick, it might as well be #9 in this stacked draft rather than #20 in next years draft.

    See? It goes both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Acie Law is a REACH. He's not shown any NBA level talent, he looks solid in college. He MIGHT become something, but many, many players looked better than him in college and became nothing.
    This is absurd. Acie Law has size, quickness, ball handling, a nice shooting touch, clutchness....everything you'd look for in an NBA point guard. And that's why he's about to be a lottery pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The Pacers HAVE to get Mateen Cleeves. Let's tank to get Cleeves, he'll fix everything. No thanks. If things are going this bad now what are they going to look like next year?
    Mateen Cleeves isn't Acie Law. Cleeves didnt have Law's skills, his size, or his athleticism. Acie has a better chance of being Chauncey Billups than he does of Mateen Cleeves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And then at some point you remove JO from the list (maybe when he walks) and build with Law-Dun-Granger-Ike-Murph, have a few more terrible years and watch ATL take your #1 pick in 2010 when Tim Duncan part 2 comes out, a guy you don't even know about.
    You're constantly throwing out wild worst-case scenarios with very little basis behind them.

    What if, next year, Daniels and JO each play in 70+ games, the team develops a little chemistry in the offseason, and we win 45 games and finish with the #5 seed in the East? Then we've got the #20 pick in the draft to give Atlanta and still have a Mike Conley or Acie Law ready to takeover as the franchise PG for the next decade. That scenario is approx. 20x more likely than the outrageous scenario you posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    To me this pick is like ball possession in college. Sure when the arrow is against you a jump doesn't get you the ball...but it does get you the arrow. In this case once the arrow flips it never goes back to ATL. To me the safety of future picks is just as important as getting the #9 this year.
    Next years pick is top-8 protected. Worst case scenario, we give up #9. That means, worst case scenario, we break even.


    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    BTW, I suggest the Pacers use the pick to get this guy...


    Spoiler Spoiler:

    Can't freaking miss pick right there.
    DerMarr messed his neck up badly in a car accident 2 years into his NBA career, so badly he missed the entire 2002-2003 season. It's a shame too, he had a fairly solid sophomore season as a 21 year old and had the size and athleticism and skillset to be a very good NBA player.

    And I suggest the Pacers use the pick to get one of these guys.....


    Spoiler Spoiler:



    .....all drafted at #9 or later of the past 10 NBA Drafts (excluding this past draft)

    Point being, there will future All-Stars and probably a future Superstar or two available for the Pacers to draft. It's up to management to make sure they draft that player, and not a bust. One thing they've done well lately is draft, so I have confidence in them.

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