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Thread: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Danny looked like he was scared to take shots during the game, i noticed a couple of times when he was wide open for 3's he would pass it inside to JO or back out to Tinsley...I dont know if its a coaching tactic or what but it just seems like he is so afraid to take shots...dont know whats up.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    Exactly when Kobe scored 45 against the Wizard didnt Arenas have 60 and they lost even if you say Arenas scored 60 and they won they still gave up 45 points to one guy. Id rather take 39 Points and great defense over 60 and allowing the other guy to score 45.
    Kobe didn't guard Arenas (and vice versa) and JO rarely guards the opponent's best big man. He's having a very good season defensively, but I'm just surprised that other than that 50-something point game he had last(?) season, he's never had 39 in a game until the last game. Especially since he's a 76% shooter from the FT line. Maybe it's because he is always playing with injuries.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    JO also rarely hoists 25 shots. As much as JO haters think every play goes through him (and allegedy by his own demands), it doesn't really work that way.

    JO was Miller-esque in how he took over the late 4th. Remember how Reggie's 25 point 4th vs NY was so amazing? Well JO just had a 14 point half a quarter and scored it from freaking everywhere and with the game on the line. Just as amazing. Truly a Miller moment effort.

    Listening to the game on the radio all I heard from Slick was airball when it came to Tinsley's shooting and he didn't give the impression that these were heroic shots. He gave the impression of WTF.
    He had 1 or 2 that were iffy, but DA had 3 attempts right away that were more iffy (even if he made one) in terms of timing and circumstance.

    The PxP confirms that I'm not full of it on his 1 3pt shot even if you don't believe me that it was kicked out to him with 1 second on the clock and with him 5 feet behind the line. PxP shows Pacers getting possession 22-23 seconds prior to that FGA by him.

    Tinsley wasn't free of bad moments by any stretch, but relative to his teammates and especially the PG position he was just fine. As I said this was the best PnR defense by him (or JO and Foster) that I've seen all year. Very aggressive, staying ahead of the play and cutting everything off.


    BRich - you know that Tins didn't chuck all his 3's within 3 minutes of playing time, you were there. He missed a couple inside that were good takes and bad misses, I'll admit that and have been. He needed to make that late layup, though that came when the Bulls denied the entry to JO in the post first and Tins tried to make something from nothing (which he almost did). 1 of his 3 3pA was desperation by another player forcing him to take it. So you have 2 attempts in more time than DA had for his 4, and his 4 were all by his choice 100%, calling his number over running a play at all at least 2 of the times.

    It's just not even close. Tins' problem was not chucking 3s, it was missing a couple of shots in the paint, just like Foster missed the tip-in too. No free pass for missing those, but that was the worst thing he did. He never passed the ball blatently to a red jersey like the guy was on the Pacers, DA did that 2 possessions in a row.



    Danny is slumping and it shows when he passes up shots. That's the bottom line on that issue. Often he'll take and miss one and when he sees a similar shot after that he passes it up. He's losing offensive confidence I think.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard View Post
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    Naptown,

    I've got to tell you that I almost think you are trying to disagree with the popularity of DA just to be a non-conformist. Your use of statistics here is accurate, but you are painting about the most negative use of them as you possibly can.

    You mention that the Pacers quickly go down with the insertion of DA and that they Pacers increase their lead when he leaves. What you fail to mention is that the overall net effect when he was in is that the Pacers go up a point. When he arrived in the first half they were down, and when he left they had the lead. And for as close a game as it was, that is significant.
    Really? Check again.

    For the game Tins was +1 on the +/-, DA was -8. You watched that happen and left with the impression that DA kept giving the Pacers the lead while Tins kept costing them leads.

    The numbers don't match that. Scoreboard rules on this one, sorry. The FACT is, even if the +/- is caused by other factors, that the team did better when Tins was out there than when DA was out there. Period.

    Now to add to that I brought up stats and specific plays. I noted his great steal and that he made that 2nd 3pt attempt...his only bucket of the game. But when you shoot it 6 seconds into the clock with the team down 6 and you are a 30% shooter that's not smart play. It proves my point that while he does hustle and does give the team energy, it is OUT OF CONTROL energy much of the time. It's a wildfire that burns the bad and the good at the same time.

    He's not hurting the team, but he's not helping it like you think he is. You are giving him a +10 for a diving steal and a -2 for passing it a Bulls player point blank right at the rim. I'm calling both of them equal. Well he only made 1 diving steal and 1 basket, but he threw 2 possessions away all on his own. Then add in the other misses and defensive gambles and being undersized when players want to shoot over him and you have a -8 night.

    It's no different than "feeling" like the Pacers won the game. You may feel that way, but in reality they didn't. I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty enough that it feels like they won.

    If Jermaine can't get an outlet pass out at 6'11" then something is wrong. When you get board and if he is triple teamed, then that means we have a pretty nice break going. JO shouldn't be holding the ball down where he can get it swiped by 6' 4" point guards.
    You were at the game and saw the play. Is that how you remember it? You think that's truly a legit view? Ben Wallace was one of the 3, but because the two guards kept JO from moving the ball away from Ben you made it possible for Ben to steal it. It had nothing to do with JO holding it down low, it had to do with JO not being able to bring the ball down and away from Ben because 2 other guys were attack him on that side.

    Your view on this is just really wrong, I'm sorry. If I was coaching some kids on this I wouldn't say "go ahead and leave him and let him throw a desperate, triple-teamed hail mary since you are open". That's not a good pass to make and often gets stolen. That's why you attack the rebound like that. And that's why a teammate stays back and helps. He warns the other guy that he's not safe, that his man is sneaking in, and he makes himself available to recieve the pass.

    Forget Tins and DA, ANY team at ANY level is going to have the same issue if they don't help on the play. When teams press you can't just run to the other end and say "throw it deep, I'm open". What, the defense is just retarded suddenly and doesn't know they are giving up that option? Of course not. They know that a defender has time to come to a pass like that hanging in the air so long, and that long passes are risky in general due to accurracy.

    You are supposed to SHOW HANDS to a guy with the ball, make him clearly aware of where you are. It's no different than a smart player coming to a pass rather than waiting back on it to get there only to have a defender cut on it. (the difference between Williams and Danny right now)


    There is 100% no freaking way that an RC coached team that has Tinsley always shouting out where he is and making himself available to the rebounder is suddenly supposed to feature both PGs (DA/McLeod) just running to the other end even though their defender is still back there.

    JO is 6'11", but his FACE isn't. And even a guard can put a hand in his face. He can't jump because if he doesn't see where his guys are right away then it's a travel. He can't dribble because he's pinned on all sides (baseline behind him). He was getting almost fouled with physical contact (I think Hinrich did smack him on the forearms the 2nd time). This isn't a penalty kick where his height has room and time to see over guys.

    Cripes, why do you think the Bulls attacked like that? Because it works. And DA/McLeod should have known better, especially when it happened a 2nd time.


    When those 2 left JO they turned it into 3 on 1. Now are you really going to prove to anyone that any player, even Kobe, is going to be successful on 3-1 situations where they have 8 seconds to get the ball to halfcourt?


    See, the reason I'm like this right now is that during the game BEFORE THE STEAL I saw them leave and was telling them to get back and help out the ball. Then what I was concerned about happened. It's a freaking team sport and you never let a team press or attack the dribble without some help. You TALK to each other, warn guys about this stuff.

    Well it's pretty tough to warn a guy about a triple team at their offensive goal when your back is to the ball because your busy heading up court and don't even know your defender has left you.


    Tarik Glenn will do that next year, just run past his guy and off down the field. Good luck Peyton, you're tall, what's the problem? Blitz? I didn't see a blitz. But you should have thrown to me, I was wide open.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard View Post
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    Naptown,

    I've got to tell you that I almost think you are trying to disagree with the popularity of DA just to be a non-conformist. Your use of statistics here is accurate, but you are painting about the most negative use of them as you possibly can.

    You and I are on waaaaayyyy opposite sides of the spectrum here.
    I feel like I've got to chime in and agree with Seth on this issue. I haven't seen the last two games, and from what I've been reading, I've really missed out. I have watched a lot of games this season, and I haven't really been as impressed with Armstrong as most people seem to be.

    He does some great things. He's probably the best (only?) natural leader on the roster. He plays with an amazing amount of energy. His enthusiasm is infectious. He leaves everything on the court everytime he plays.

    He also does some dumb things. Even though he is an aged vet, he is not a cool, calm, controlled player. He makes mistakes. He takes a lot of bad shots, almost as many as Bad Tins does (Good Tins is Good Tins because he doesn't take the bad shots unless he's forced to). Army's shot selection is my main problem with him. He makes some bad passes and he gambles on defense.

    I am not a Tinsley fan. In fact I don't think I'll have any hope for this franchise until he's gone, but he is by far the best PG on the roster right now.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Seth,

    I was quoting +/- on the specific times you were mentioning. According the website and Pacers statistics I am not wrong but 100% right. I never said +/- for the entire game. You mentioned we went down when he came in during the first half and that we improved when he went out. In the first half we were losing by 1 point when he entered or we were tied... I don't have time to look at it right now, but when we left we were winning by 1 point. Go back at the statisics and tell me that I'm wrong.

    And as many have mentioned before +/- statistics simply don't tell the entire story. It doesn't account for made bad shots, missed good shots, and good/bad streaks of opponents that have nothing to do with the players on the floor. Sometimes people miss wide open shots and you can get credited for great defense.

    You mention 2 plays where DA passed to the wrong jersey. I'll give you that, but you also have to compare apples to apples. His dive for the ball and his causing a travel makes up for that. JT was bad on all sides of the ball and didn't make up for anything... not in this specific game.

    You say DA gets beat on defense for gambling... give me on instance of that. I'm still waiting.

    The play with JO getting stripped is just one of those things. If you feel somebody can get an outlet... you break. If you feel he can't you don't. And yes, if somebody is having trouble you come back for the ball. It is simply a judgement thing. You were the one who said he was stripped by a guard, and fundamentals teach a big man to keep the ball tall where people can't do that. I can understand your 20/20 hindsight of the play, but that is what it is... hindsight.

    I've not watched the Pacers much over the last 10 games, so I'm not going to comment pro or anti Army for those games. But are you really telling me that he was worse than Tinsley vs Chicago?

    DA shot better, we know he defends better, In spite of how bad you dislike the way in which he made turnovers... he still matched Tinsley with only 2, they were equal in steals, JT had 3 fouls to one for DA, and JT had 4 more assists.

    Statistically speaking the only thing JT did better, and this is an important statistic, is to get more assists. However, in my opinion only, DA's defense lack of fouling, and better shooting percentage give him the edge in this game. At best, your argument would have to be that they played to a draw.

    The points cost by Tinsley with his dismal shooting, poor defense, and fouling hurt the Pacers infinitely worse than anything DA did. How many offensive posessions were screwed when he took a poor shot? How many FT's did the Bulls shoot or how much quicker were they at the line with his fouls? DA causes lots more turnovers than those that show up in the Rebound and Steal columns.

    DA wasn't perfect, but much better overall in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard View Post
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    Seth,

    I was quoting +/- on the specific times you were mentioning. According the website and Pacers statistics I am not wrong but 100% right. I never said +/- for the entire game. You mentioned we went down when he came in during the first half and that we improved when he went out. In the first half we were losing by 1 point when he entered or we were tied... I don't have time to look at it right now, but when we left we were winning by 1 point. Go back at the statisics and tell me that I'm wrong.

    And as many have mentioned before +/- statistics simply don't tell the entire story. It doesn't account for made bad shots, missed good shots, and good/bad streaks of opponents that have nothing to do with the players on the floor. Sometimes people miss wide open shots and you can get credited for great defense.


    You mention 2 plays where DA passed to the wrong jersey. I'll give you that, but you also have to compare apples to apples. His dive for the ball and his causing a travel makes up for that. JT was bad on all sides of the ball and didn't make up for anything... not in this specific game.

    You say DA gets beat on defense for gambling... give me on instance of that. I'm still waiting.

    The play with JO getting stripped is just one of those things. If you feel somebody can get an outlet... you break. If you feel he can't you don't. And yes, if somebody is having trouble you come back for the ball. It is simply a judgement thing. You were the one who said he was stripped by a guard, and fundamentals teach a big man to keep the ball tall where people can't do that. I can understand your 20/20 hindsight of the play, but that is what it is... hindsight.

    I've not watched the Pacers much over the last 10 games, so I'm not going to comment pro or anti Army for those games. But are you really telling me that he was worse than Tinsley vs Chicago?

    DA shot better, we know he defends better, In spite of how bad you dislike the way in which he made turnovers... he still matched Tinsley with only 2, they were equal in steals, JT had 3 fouls to one for DA, and JT had 4 more assists.

    Statistically speaking the only thing JT did better, and this is an important statistic, is to get more assists. However, in my opinion only, DA's defense lack of fouling, and better shooting percentage give him the edge in this game. At best, your argument would have to be that they played to a draw.

    The points cost by Tinsley with his dismal shooting, poor defense, and fouling hurt the Pacers infinitely worse than anything DA did. How many offensive posessions were screwed when he took a poor shot? How many FT's did the Bulls shoot or how much quicker were they at the line with his fouls? DA causes lots more turnovers than those that show up in the Rebound and Steal columns.

    DA wasn't perfect, but much better overall in my opinion.

    Brichard,

    Being new on this board, I tend to read more than post, however I agree with you on this topic. I do think that Seth tends to try to become an advocate for the less liked Pacers(Jackson,Tins), and he will post all sorts of stats to build them up to give them some sort of overated value. Conversely he attempts to tear down the fan favorites, (Foster), playing the devil's advocate if you will.

    If a player becomes a fan favorite, you can be assured that Seth will attempt to prove that they are not worthy of the fans adulation. He will go to the mat to defend players who are basically troublemakers and malcontents.

    Anyway, this is my honest opinion on this subject, but only my opinion.

  8. #58
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Seth is afraid the anti-Tinsley voices are growing louder and management will attempt to appease them by getting rid of Tinsley for 'whatever' and thus 'bleeding off talent' to appease the fanbase.

    At least that is how I read him of late.

    Considering how Tinsley has been playing I'm not sure how you could consider his loss as 'bleeding off talent'. There comes a point where the team just has to move on for the good of the team in the long term...

    -BBall
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Seth is afraid the anti-Tinsley voices are growing louder and management will attempt to appease them by getting rid of Tinsley for 'whatever' and thus 'bleeding off talent' to appease the fanbase.

    At least that is how I read him of late.

    Considering how Tinsley has been playing I'm not sure how you could consider his loss as 'bleeding off talent'. There comes a point where the team just has to move on for the good of the team in the long term...

    -BBall
    Then you need to read more.

    I've been plenty critical of Tins on bad nights. The difference is I go into each game with a blank slate and judge that game on what happens in that game.

    Meanwhile I sit in front of a guy cussing out JO before the tip-off even. I read people here mad about Tinsley before the game even starts, or mad when he misses a shot, yet totally ignore chucky Army who has consistantly been putting up the exact same horrible 3 rate and volume of shots...but in less minutes.

    Army shoots more 3s per 48 than Tins does (7.8 to 4.4). He doesn't shoot it well (33% on the year, 30% since NOV). So how does moving Army up solve the problem of shooting at PG? It doesn't.

    Next. "He makes things better and the team starts winning". There is only 1 stat to address that, and that's +/-. Certainly there are other factors that impact +/- and I do not use it as a single game gauge of a players impact. BUT, if you are going to say "everytime he came in the team did better" then the +/- should verify that this actually happened.

    In the Chicago game it is blatently not true to say that everytime Army played the team did better. His +/- was worse than the final score, so when he came in the team did worse. Tins was better than the final score so when he came in the team did better.

    Was this directly because of Tins/Army? Who knows. I just know that you can't use the +/- to prove Army's time was successful when it wasn't a good +/-, which means that doesn't prove that he's the best PG option on the team.

    It shows me that a person has bias if they see one guy play and the lead grow and they think "boy, they were terrible with him out there" and then another guy comes on and the lead disappears and they say "man, that was a lot better". Only if you are rooting for the other team does it work that way.


    Third. Per minute he assits less and his A/TO ratio is lower than Tinsley. So he chucks 3s AND doesn't run the offense as well, and these stat totals are including both the good and BAD nights by Tinsley.


    Fourth. You want a defensive PG that you don't want shooting the ball? ORIEN GREENE. He's a much stronger defender than DA and doesn't get shot over or muscled out. And for all the steals that DA gets, his per 48 steals are just a little better than Tinsley's (2.51 to 2.83). What, you don't count it when Tins creates a steal? For March DA's per48 steals are below 2 even, Tins is running 2.4 per48 in the same span.


    Fifth. You do remember DA's own outburst at the refs recently. He was CARRIED off the floor. But people don't like Tins' attitude. Sheesh. What would you have said if that was Tins being carried out - "there he goes again, ruining the team". But with DA he's "spunky" even when it got him suspended by the league. Another free pass with fans.




    As for criticizing Tinsley I said right off the bat that Tins MUST make those layups. His shooting is a big problem. But that's not the same as shot selection and smart play. That's just poor execution, he doesn't take a high volume from 3 actually I'd like even fewer than he does, but he's still twice as restrained as DA.

    The Pacers need a PG that scores better than 40% and doesn't miss lots of shots close to the rim, and that means Tins needs to fix that problem or they need to find a way to get a PG in that can.

    I just said recently that seeing Greene play the PnR much better proved that it was more about Tinsley than the scheme. But what goes hand in hand with that is that when I see him out in front of defenders on the PnR Sunday I'm going to give him credit for that. Why shouldn't I? I'm not a player hater, I just like basketball, so I have nothing to gain by denying a player's good qualities.

    You'll note right in this thread that my "trashing" of Army includes credit for his diving steal (awesome) and comments that the team DOES NEED HIS ENERGY.


    So you have me, a guy giving credit to both Tins and DA for good things, and commenting on their negatives. Then you have other posters that think these players are either mostly bad or mostly good.

    And I'M the one with an agenda. Please.


    How many FT's did the Bulls shoot or how much quicker were they at the line with his fouls?
    Tins first 2 fouls were from Hinrich and Deng beating Dun and Granger. One was a shooting foul (2 FTs). That quarter the only other FTs came off a DA shooting foul late in the first.

    From that point on Tins had one more foul, which of course he argued and was T'd up. That came in the 2nd quarter. Tinsley did not foul again the rest of the game and even AFTER that tech was made and all the FTs he was on the hook for were done (no more FTs that quarter so no penalty situation), he left the game with the Pacers UP 7.

    Tell me how his fouls cost them the game again? The none he had from then on for no FTs that cost them a 7 point lead. Part of what drove that 7 point lead back down to 2 was the 4 points by Gordon plus an assist on Duhan's 3 that came with Tins out for the rest of the half.

    So right in the first half you have Gordon getting 12 points and 3 assists against DA/McLeod. Vs Tins Gordon had 4 points and 1 assist.

    Wow, Tins was really getting torched.

    BTW, in the 4th Dunleavy was on Gordon, including the final game winner.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Perfect example vs CLE tonight. Army comes in. First thing that happens is they get the FT rebound (he came in with CLE at the line) and the ball goes out to the point. PG dribbles right past Army, beating him by 3 feet even before the FT line, not even off a move just pure speed.

    That forces JO to help, leaves his man free for the dump and dunk.

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    Default Re: Pacers vs Bulls postgame thread - very fun game

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Then you need to read more.

    Meanwhile I sit in front of a guy cussing out JO before the tip-off even. I read people here mad about Tinsley before the game even starts, or mad when he misses a shot, yet totally ignore chucky Army who has consistantly been putting up the exact same horrible 3 rate and volume of shots...but in less minutes.
    Dude... read what you are writing. You are writing that people, apparently folks like me, can't give credit to JT when he does well and DA gets a free pass. No. That is not correct. I gave you that DA made the two terrible passes, I concur that his shooting wasn't stellar, and I am only looking at one individual game.

    It is you that seem unable to shake the rose colored tint from your glasses when looking at Tinsley's play. He had a sucky crappy terrible game. It doesn't mean he is necessarily a sucky crappy terrible player, but for crying out loud admit it. The first step is admission you have a problem....

    Army shoots more 3s per 48 than Tins does (7.8 to 4.4). He doesn't shoot it well (33% on the year, 30% since NOV). So how does moving Army up solve the problem of shooting at PG? It doesn't.
    We gain defense and we lose assists. That is the difference between the two. Next...

    It shows me that a person has bias if they see one guy play and the lead grow and they think "boy, they were terrible with him out there" and then another guy comes on and the lead disappears and they say "man, that was a lot better". Only if you are rooting for the other team does it work that way.
    Naptown, follow me closely here. You said that the lead got worse when DA arrived and got better when he left. Although what you said was correct, it completely nullified the overall effect of what happened when DA was in the game. it is unfair to rate his time on simply the first 2 minutes he was in or the overall effect he had in the first two minutes he was out. That is just crazy. And when you consider that we actually gained the lead during his time on the court at the time in question, you think that I have an unfair bias? IMHO we were just starting to play better and DA was making things happen.

    Fifth. You do remember DA's own outburst at the refs recently. He was CARRIED off the floor. But people don't like Tins' attitude. Sheesh. What would you have said if that was Tins being carried out - "there he goes again, ruining the team". But with DA he's "spunky" even when it got him suspended by the league. Another free pass with fans.
    There is a fine distinction between passion and immaturity. Even if you want to say JT and DA are even on their ability to get T'd up, until DA is getting arrested with great frequency at 3 AM, I don't think your public defense of JT is going to win in the court of public opinion.

    You'll note right in this thread that my "trashing" of Army includes credit for his diving steal (awesome) and comments that the team DOES NEED HIS ENERGY.
    And then you completely immasculate him with the rest of your post, which makes these words pretty empty indeed.


    So you have me, a guy giving credit to both Tins and DA for good things, and commenting on their negatives. Then you have other posters that think these players are either mostly bad or mostly good. And I'M the one with an agenda. Please.
    When you start writing threads of how Tinsley's made 3-pt shots were bad... then we can talk.

    Tell me how his fouls cost them the game again? The none he had from then on for no FTs that cost them a 7 point lead. Part of what drove that 7 point lead back down to 2 was the 4 points by Gordon plus an assist on Duhan's 3 that came with Tins out for the rest of the half. So right in the first half you have Gordon getting 12 points and 3 assists against DA/McLeod. Vs Tins Gordon had 4 points and 1 assist. Wow, Tins was really getting torched. BTW, in the 4th Dunleavy was on Gordon, including the final game winner.
    Nap, all I'm saying is this. It was a two point ball game. Lots of things can lose 2 points. How many offensive posessions, that could have been coverted to points, were lost b/c of a terrible Tinsley shot? Let's kindly say that was worth 4 points lost. How many points were scored off of his fouling of other players. Easily it cost us 3 pts. with his T. We won't even count the fact that the Bulls may enter the bonus quicker b/c of the overall team fouls that Tinsley contributed to.

    I'm trying to demonstrate that Tinsleys poor play alone could have cost us that game in many different facets. And I think it is a pretty easy argument that his play contributed to that no matter what the overall +/- statistics say.

    I'm assuming you have went back and figure the amount of actual minutes each player was guarding Ben, and shot attempts, and FG% and all those things in order to make the statistics applicable right?

    Of course you aren't, or if you do... I must suggest a hobby. The point is, that is why we have to look beyond statistics. It is the overall play of the game. We can't ignore them, but if we don't use them in conjunction with observation, they simply don't tell the entire story.
    “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
    motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
    Reggie Miller

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