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Thread: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

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    Default Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    I think its pretty obvious by now that even the most blind of Jermaine O’Neal fans can now see that his talent is severely limited. Sure he’s playing with a gimpy knee, but then again when isn’t Jermaine hurt? Sure he’s gutting it up to play in games with that Gimpy knee, but still the Pacers have lost the last 13 of 14 games. I repect any Jermaine O’Neal fan that comes on this board and just is ,well, a fan. But when it comes right down to it Jermaine trys to do to much with the limitations that he has. How can Jermaine change his game? Well believe it or not his game only needs a tweak or two.
    fficeffice" />>>
    He needs to learn that when he gets the ball with 9 seconds on the shot clock and a double team coming at him how to find an open shooter….but wait there are no shooters on this Pacer team. Jermaine has LIMITED range and hops. He is to casual after a dunk or a fade-away jumper (make or miss) for my taste. But you know what? That’s O’Neals game and it isn’t going to change. The Pacers need a decent point, and shooting guard out on the floor with him. I don’t mean another two projects. I mean a couple of vets with gas left in the tank. The only thing is that the only players that anyone will be interested is O’Neal, Granger and maybe Foster. Lets not forget that O’Neal can opt out after next season. The writing is on the wall for O’Neal and the Pacers…its now time to move him for a little of something instead of a whole lot of nothing.
    >>
    Danny Granger while only being a second year pro still makes to many of the same mistakes night in and night out. His passive aggressiveness on the court has cost the Pacers key baskets at key times. He does not cover the weak side rotation with any consistency and if his shots not going down he’s basically invisible on the court. I honestly thought early in this season that Danny could become the leader of this team, even over Jermaine…but for some reason he doesn’t do it or doesn’t want to make waves in the clubhouse. His post up game needs major work, but who on the Pacer coaching staff is capable of working with him on this? Danny needs a big mans camp and a self esteem course and he will be a fine pro. Danny still has upside!
    >>
    Jeff Foster is the biggest waste of money on this Pacer team, his injuries are almost rivaling Jonathan Bender, except Bender could shoot and Foster can’t. Lately Jeff has been totally ineffective on the floor, commits the worst kind of unnecessary fouls and isn’t rebounding worth a tinkers darn. Foster needs to go, faster than O’Neal and Tinsley. He is basically a luxury on a team that has other glaring needs. He also has been getting in lengthy conversations with officials after the dumb fouls that hes been committing, can anyone say Stephen Jackson.Fosters skills are on the downword slope, and that isn't saying much.
    >>
    Jamal Tinsley, well if you didn’t see the San Antonio game then you don’t know how bad its got for Jamal. His floor game is one night adequate and then the next night terrible. His shooting is one night adequate and then the next night terrible. When it comes right down to it, he isn’t a player that your ever going to go anywhere with. Meaning that Tinsleys game belongs on the playground, because his attitude, and his skill set is ALL playground. Who was the last playground legend to make good in the NBA? The next playground legend to make good will be the first. Jamal will probably be bought out at the end of the season because the Pacers have continually tried to move him and no one wants the attitude and the inconsistent skill set.
    >>
    Last but not least how about talking about the Pacer fans that want to get rid of Rick Carlisle. Eveyrone says that Rick has LOST this team. My question is that to lose a team you first have to have a team. None of the starters play with the intelligence or attitude that it takes to be a competitive NBA team. The bench at times plays way above their skill sets, but usually fizzle out against any other teams starters. How about a point guard that can be an extention of the coach on the floor…is Tinsley even close to that? How about a franchise player that makes the players around him better? Jermaine has NEVER made anyone around him any better. He’s one of the blocked shots leaders in the NBA, but what good has that done for the Pacers? It hasn’t, so it’s a non factor stat. Do injuries play a part? Sure, but every team has them, what every team doesn’t have is a GM that tries to be more then fair with his players,in a way he overcompensates for the small market that the Indian Pacers are in. Rick Carlisle will be the coach next year as will Donnie Walsh will be the GM. Who are you going to find with a better track record then these two….really!

    I would really love to bash the Golden State players, but the problems that this Pacer team is having has been here for a lot longer than January of this year.
    >>
    Players that WILL BE moved this summer right before or during the draft include, Jermaine, Jamal, Jeff Foster, Troy Murphy, Keith McCloud.

    Possible replacements…Kevin Garnett, Randy Foye, Loul Deng, Ben Gordon, Kurt Heinrich, Paul Gasol, Mike Miller, Andre Miller, Omeka Okafer , Raymond Felton, Adam Morrison, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Ryan Gomes, Ray Allen…..

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    Danny Granger while only being a second year pro still makes to many of the same mistakes night in and night out. His passive aggressiveness on the court has cost the Pacers key baskets at key times.

    How can a Pacer's play be passive aggresive? Does he turn to Tinsley in the huddle and say "well, I guess I can take the shot if you don't think you can make it"?

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    Players that WILL BE moved this summer right before or during the draft include, Jermaine, Jamal, Jeff Foster, Troy Murphy, Keith McCloud.

    First, would anyone take Murphy's contract on? Second, who would be left to play center...David Harrison???

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    Possible replacements…Kevin Garnett, Randy Foye, Loul Deng, Ben Gordon, Kurt Heinrich, Paul Gasol, Mike Miller, Andre Miller, Omeka Okafer , Raymond Felton, Adam Morrison, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Ryan Gomes, Ray Allen…..
    I would absolutley love to have either of these players on this team. Ray Allen would give us a consistent shooter and a definite starter at the SG position. Reasons for wanting KG are obvious. But Ben Gordon is a rising star and would help our shooting and he can be a reliable scorer.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH;559773[FONT=Times New Roman
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    Jeff Foster is the biggest waste of money on this Pacer team, his injuries are almost rivaling Jonathan Bender, except Bender could shoot and Foster can?t. Lately Jeff has been totally ineffective on the floor, commits the worst kind of unnecessary fouls and isn?t rebounding worth a tinkers darn. Foster needs to go, faster than O?Neal and Tinsley. He is basically a luxury on a team that has other glaring needs. He also has been getting in lengthy conversations with officials after the dumb fouls that hes been committing, can anyone say Stephen Jackson.Fosters skills are on the downword slope, and that isn't saying much.[/FONT]
    What in the world are you talking about. He's had one minor injury all season and he missed two games - all season.

    Needless to say I disagree with everything you posted in total, including the tone

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSmash
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    He also has been getting in lengthy conversations with officials after the dumb fouls that hes been committing, can anyone say Stephen Jackson.
    Come on, now...
    Were you just trying to get my attention with that line?
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    I strongly disagree that Foster is just a big waste of money.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
    press pause on the second slow-mo replay around 0:12 mark

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    The Foster analysis is way off base, but the Tinsley analysis was "smashing".

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    "Is it Talent or Attitude?" Maybe, but it is also chemistry. These players just do not fit well together. Maybe give them a full training camp to get to know each other (and get healthy), but this current roster is just defective.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Totally disagree on the Foster comments. I think he gets hit with some ticky-tack fouls and yes he does make a whine after it but I don't see him yelling at officials instead of getting back on D.

    Hell, he's probably the only dude still hustling on the team.

    As for Jermaine, Jamaal, Foster, Murphy, and McLeod all definitely being moved by the draft, I'll believe it when I see it. I hope you're right regrading the first two, though.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    How does Gilbert Arenas get his own commercial for staying on the bench for the first 40 games of his career? Jermaine O'Neal was on the bench for four years (he probably would have been better off spending those years on campus) before his big break!

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
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    "Is it Talent or Attitude?" Maybe, but it is also chemistry. These players just do not fit well together. Maybe give them a full training camp to get to know each other (and get healthy), but this current roster is just defective.
    Yeah, and this dude is right (I think). Except for Troy Murphy - he is third-string at best.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Like everyone....I disagree about your comments about Foster...but does agree that I think he will likely be moved.

    I think that either Granger or JONeal will be traded...but not both. I really hope that TPTB try to package Tinsley and ( maybe ) Foster with either of them to try to get the best Backcourt available ( I'm not saying getting all-stars....I'm just saying the best one available ). I know that Tinsley+JONeal has a lot of salary going out....but I would have no problem taking back ( at most ) one bad salary as long as that bad salary fills a need.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Like everyone....I disagree about your comments about Foster...but does agree that I think he will likely be moved.

    I think that either Granger or JONeal will be traded...but not both. I really hope that TPTB try to package Tinsley and ( maybe ) Foster with either of them to try to get the best Backcourt available ( I'm not saying getting all-stars....I'm just saying the best one available ). I know that Tinsley+JONeal has a lot of salary going out....but I would have no problem taking back ( at most ) one bad salary as long as that bad salary fills a need.
    We also need to trade either Dunleavy or Murphy. I would prefer to keep Dun because he at least tries to get into the game a little more often than Murphy who is content to have a good game once a week which he learned from JT (or the other way around). This team just doesn't expect to win because they do not have confidence in one another.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    I ditto the Foster comments. Sorry Smash, you can complain about Foster's offense all you want. Maybe even talk about his soft screens, even though he is one of the few players on this team who attempts to screen. But to complain about his injuries... well, I'm sorry.... I really don't think you know what you are talking about.

    As for Jermaine, when you posted your first rant about the Pacers, you mentioned then that his blocks were basically a meaningless statistic. I think that is also BS. Blocked shots are always important. They may be "icing on the cake", but jeesh man... they are often run busters or game turners. The problem is not that Jermaine blocks shots, its that we don't do other things defensively as well as we should.

    With respect to Tinsley, anyone paying attention knows that I loathe Tinsley. But even I will admit that he has an excellent offensive skill set when it comes to handling the ball. His problems, apart from the fact that he can't play a lick of defense, are that he makes poor decisions, pushes his own agenda a little too much and loses focus on the needs of the team.

    Regarding Danny, I've always had the opinion that young players show their most marked improvement in their 3rd season. Going into this season, Granger had obviously added significant range to his jump shot. And, early on, he was fairly consistent with it.

    Even though I haven't seen a lot of the games since early December, I'm assuming that Danny is now recognized by other teams (especially after the trade) as being one of the potential scorers on this team and is being guarded much better, even on the perimeter. But I'd wait to see what we can add this summer to alleviate pressure on Danny, as well as Danny's improvement over the summer before I'd give up on him.

    For trades this summer, I'd probably keep Granger, Foster, Dunleavy, Williams, Diogu and Marshall. But I'd be willing to trade everyone else. I'd also be willing to part with Foster and Dunleavy if it returned something really worth while.

    We need a true leader, preferably at the PG position. We need perimeter defenders and consistent shooters. Aw, what the hell? We need damn near everything.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    fficeffice" />>>
    Last but not least how about talking about the Pacer fans that want to get rid of Rick Carlisle. Eveyrone says that Rick has LOST this team. My question is that to lose a team you first have to have a team. None of the starters play with the intelligence or attitude that it takes to be a competitive NBA team. The bench at times plays way above their skill sets, but usually fizzle out against any other teams starters. How about a point guard that can be an extention of the coach on the floor…is Tinsley even close to that? How about a franchise player that makes the players around him better? Jermaine has NEVER made anyone around him any better. He’s one of the blocked shots leaders in the NBA, but what good has that done for the Pacers? It hasn’t, so it’s a non factor stat. Do injuries play a part? Sure, but every team has them, what every team doesn’t have is a GM that tries to be more then fair with his players,in a way he overcompensates for the small market that the Indian Pacers are in. Rick Carlisle will be the coach next year as will Donnie Walsh will be the GM. Who are you going to find with a better track record then these two….really!
    Seriously the pacers have traded away too many players to count to fit Rick's system and it still hasnt worked eventually you cant keep trading players to find those that fit the system because if you do you take on players that nobody intially would think about getting(Murphy, Dun,Daniels) after a while moving players and still not working you have to take a look at the system thats being run and by whom.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    We also need to trade either Dunleavy or Murphy. I would prefer to keep Dun because he at least tries to get into the game a little more often than Murphy who is content to have a good game once a week which he learned from JT (or the other way around). This team just doesn't expect to win because they do not have confidence in one another.
    Sure....I would love to move Dunleavy or Murphy.....but ( just like Tinsley ) I don't think that anyone will take them ( mainly cuz they are overpaid ) unless we package them with someone.

    Its like picking the lesser of 3 evils.....I may not like that the both of them are defensive liabilities and are inconsistent....but they are better roleplayers then Tinsley is....well...whatever he is. Given that we have limited resources that any team would want to take....if we have to package someone....I would much rather use what little trade assets that we have to move Tinsley...rather then Dunleavy or Murphy.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    What in the world are you talking about. He's had one minor injury all season and he missed two games - all season.

    Needless to say I disagree with everything you posted in total, including the tone
    I respect your comment and opinion, my only questions that NO ONE on this digest wants to answer is...


    Has/ Is Jeff Foster been a leader on this team?

    Does Jeff Foster do ANYTHING but chase down rebounds he sees because he's not part of the offense?

    His defense this year has been atrocious and his passing game in the low post is non exsistant. If Jeff had a mid range jumpshot, even one that looked like it was on a resperator I wouldn't even be talking about this. But the fact is that Jeff is a vetern of many years and has had more then opportunity to improve his shooting...He hasn't and when since the Pacers are the worst shooting team in the NBA this season, he is just a luxury player.

    Jeffs injury past is much like O'Neals and Tinsleys. Back Spasms, Hip surgury are just two that come to mind. Every Foster supporter talks about his hustle....well his hustle isn't cutting it obviously as they have dropped 13 of the last 14. Whats worse is that he doesn't inspire ANYONE on his team to do better or to hustle more. You would think that if you were a pacer player and you saw this 6'11" guy busting his chops to get every loose ball he could, you would also....but the fact is non of the pacers trust Jeff with the ball on offense because he can't shoot a lick, and rebounds, especially offensive rebounds are only good if the man chasing them down can convert them into points...Foster doesn't.

    He has no low post game anbd can't convert layups....but lets keep him becasue he hustles...yep, that makes sense...How about we package him and another player and get a REAL point guard or SHOOTER.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    Seriously the pacers have traded away too many players to count to fit Rick's system and it still hasnt worked eventually you cant keep trading players to find those that fit the system because if you do you take on players that nobody intially would think about getting(Murphy, Dun,Daniels) after a while moving players and still not working you have to take a look at the system thats being run and by whom.

    The PAcers have traded away players becasue we the fans have demanded those trades and now we the fans have the nerver to critisize those moves by saying the coach can not coach anymore. The old saying is becareful what you wish for becasue you just might get it.

    The players brought in was a mid season move, the same thing happened to the Pacers when the Rose & Best Trade to Chicago happened. Making Brad Miller, Ron Artest, Ron Mercer fit in took all the second half of the season and if I remember right we staggered in at the 8th spot almost not making the playoffs...and yes Jermaine O'Neal and Jeff Foster and Jamal Tinsley were a part of tha team to.

    So to say Carlisle can't coach these guys is just....wrong, wait until he has a training camp and new fresh faces...then we'll see if he can coach.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
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    Totally disagree on the Foster comments. I think he gets hit with some ticky-tack fouls and yes he does make a whine after it but I don't see him yelling at officials instead of getting back on D.

    Hell, he's probably the only dude still hustling on the team.

    As for Jermaine, Jamaal, Foster, Murphy, and McLeod all definitely being moved by the draft, I'll believe it when I see it. I hope you're right regrading the first two, though.

    Jeff Foster will not lead the PAcers to anything but out of the playoffs, his hustle is only seen when the game is out of hand, I would gladly trade in a little of his hustle for a solid mid range jumper...but wait, hes a pro, shoudn'y he have developed that say about four years ago....

    He's not going to get anything but older now.....trade him!

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
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    "Is it Talent or Attitude?" Maybe, but it is also chemistry. These players just do not fit well together. Maybe give them a full training camp to get to know each other (and get healthy), but this current roster is just defective.

    Completely agree, but this team won't be the same after the draft this year....soo its really a mute point as the Pacers will be starting fresh.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    How can a Pacer's play be passive aggresive? Does he turn to Tinsley in the huddle and say "well, I guess I can take the shot if you don't think you can make it"?

    Granger is a solid NBA player with little confidence....he has shown flashes of being able to just take over a game, but then defers to O'Neal and Tinsley because they are vets. I would really like to see Danny step up to the plate and let these vets know that he is ready to force the issue on the court. That is what this Pacer team needs, a player who does the talking with his game...not making excuses.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    So to say Carlisle can't coach these guys is just....wrong, wait until he has a training camp and new fresh faces...then we'll see if he can coach.
    Smash, it seems at every chance you love to defend Carlisle while on the other hand always complain about the non leadership skill of JO, Tins, or Foster (which by the way I do agree with).

    Guess what, Rick Carlisle is in the very same boat and is not a leader of this team. The head coach needs to discipline, manage, and gain the respect or at least fear from his team that they better do what he says. IMHO Rick has failed miserably at this as of late. Like Larry Brown his time is up and he has been tuned out. All you have really pointed out is there is no leadership from top to bottom with this team and organization at this time.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    I would just like to say I love DaSMASH's view of this team. I have never understood everyones views on Foster and have wanted to trade him for a very long time. I can't stand Tinsley and believe it will be a great day when he is gone. I love the trade that was made in the middle of the season the Pacers have always been a proud team and a class act Jax2 was a constant embarrasment to this team and this city. I just believe more needs to happen this off season. You have to crawl before you walk and this team can't walk right now. J.O. said last season if things didn't change this year he should be moved and I pesonally agree. The team does not work well together. Move JO, Tin man and Jeff and I will be a very happen man. The rest of the season we should concentrate on developing our younger guys. Start Danny, Ike, Harrison. with Dunleavy and Armstrong at the guards and just let the guys play. I like Carlise and believe we should stand by the guy and build a team from the ground up.

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    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    I think its pretty obvious by now that even the most blind of Jermaine O?Neal fans can now see that his talent is severely limited.
    And you lost me. Severely? Back on Planet Reasonable they'd lock you up.

    his (Foster) hustle is only seen when the game is out of hand,
    Nevermind, they wouldn't even let you land on the planet in the first place.

    his (Foster) injuries are almost rivaling Jonathan Bender
    Expect a pre-emptive strike attack from Planet R before you can reach orbit. No point in risking an infection if you get too close.


    Bill Walton called, he'd like his hyperbole back.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is it Talent or Attitude thats in question?

    Is it talent? yes
    Is it attitude? yes
    Is it conditioning? yes
    Is is coaching? yes

    It is a pefect storm of self-reinforcing deficiencies.

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