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  1. #26

    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Yeah, once he gets a ring maybe.
    He has 3 of them, doesn't he? Unless, you're trying to say that because he was teammates with Shaq they don't count. I would think that's a bit hypocritical, to criticize him for being a ball hog but then dismiss any championships he won as part of a team. So, unless he's a selfish ball hog and wins a championship that way it won't count?

  2. #27
    Member efx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Kobe was as much a part of the 3peat as shaq was. Kobe didn't win a ring without shaq and vice versa plain and simple.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Anyway, have you see the OKC game. Dude is at 44 to end the 3rd and the Lakers are winning.

    One thing to note in all this is that Kobe and the Lakers are getting fat on crap teams right now. Not knocking Kobe, he's shooting well, just saying that the Lakers just came off a terrible stretch vs tougher teams than this so let's hold off the rings and MVP talk just a bit.

    When Kobe pulls his team over Dallas or Phoenix and put his team closer to 55 wins or something he'll get a lot more credit. Look, if Nash put up his numbers on a team with the Lakers record he wouldn't have won a single MVP, period.

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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    So hes at 50 right now damn i have honestly gone from a Kobe hater mostly because they beat us in the finals to actually watching him play and a fan.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfcx26 View Post
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    He has 3 of them, doesn't he? Unless, you're trying to say that because he was teammates with Shaq they don't count. I would think that's a bit hypocritical, to criticize him for being a ball hog but then dismiss any championships he won as part of a team. So, unless he's a selfish ball hog and wins a championship that way it won't count?
    For some reason I thought we were talking about Flip Murray, my bad.

  6. #31
    Seize The Day carpediem024's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Kobe 50 again tonight...

    ...so thats 65, 50, 60, 50.

    and the Lakers win.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
    press pause on the second slow-mo replay around 0:12 mark

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    50+ in four straight games is damn impressive.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    MVP doesn't go to the best player in the league, but Kobe is the best player in the league.

    I don't care who they are playing, how meaningful those points are, or however you try to explain it away--50+ points 4 games in row is unbelieveable.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  9. #34
    Seize The Day carpediem024's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    It's annoying when people go, he scored 81 on the sucky Raptors...

    It doesn't matter, come on he scored Eighty-One.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
    press pause on the second slow-mo replay around 0:12 mark

  10. #35

    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    The MVP used to be and should be the award given to the best player in the league. Does anyone really doubt that Kobe is the best player in the NBA? Shaq should have gotten more than one, and I don't think Kobe should be denied because his team stinks without him. Dallas and Phoenix would both make the playoffs without their MVPs. Lakers would have the worst record in the league. Otherwise they should wait to give the MVP until after the finals when the championship is crowned. (And yes, Kobe should have won last year, he dominated Nash and a much better Suns team in some major games.) ((Kobe is the most dominant player since Jordan, Jordan's teams were much better when they won the championships.)) (((It's not MVTP: Most Valuable Team Player.)))

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    The MVP doesn't necessarily go to the best player, although a lot of times it works out that way.

    If Kobe wasn't playing for the Lakers, I think they would still be hovering around .500 ball. He still doesn't fully comprehend how to make his teammates better on a nightly basis.

    Last night's game is a prime example of it being all about Kobe. Late in the third quarter LA goes up by 18 points. However, Kobe plays 46:52!!!! Instead of giving him a rest, he remains in and the Hornets make a comeback. It was simply a canard for Kobe to play a full game and for Phil to accommodate it.

    As far as his three rings...never would've happened without Shaq. As far as Shaq winning three without Kobe...don't believe it would have happened. He would have only won two.
    .

  12. #37

    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millerartest View Post
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    The MVP used to be and should be the award given to the best player in the league.
    It was never ever given simply to the best player. Wilt averaged 50 and 25 and didn't win it. Oscar didn't win it in his triple double season.

    It has never been defined but it is certainly understood by the voters that the league MVP is:

    1) an elite player
    2) on one of the very best teams
    3) who leads his team to an extremely successful regular season, placing them in a position to contend for an NBA title



    I have no problems with this accepted definition

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    I really wish I could enjoy the way Kobe's been playing, but he's such an egotistical *** (amongst other things) that I just can't find myself being happy for him.

  14. #39
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    I really wish I could enjoy the way Kobe's been playing, but he's such an egotistical *** (amongst other things) that I just can't find myself being happy for him.
    You probably hate MJ too, right?

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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    I really wish I could enjoy the way Kobe's been playing, but he's such an egotistical *** (amongst other things) that I just can't find myself being happy for him.
    Exactly, thats the way i feel to... he just makes it extremly difficult to like him if you are person who care about teamplay, personality, behaviour, unselfishness & the will to make his teammates better.

    For me, people who are Kobe Fans are those who dont care about these things.... or they maybe do, but they are brainwashed, they are geting brainwashed because Kobe is that good scorer and then they say "!1230+)"#"# score freakin !!! 81 pts!! dude!!! and 50 pts 4 straight timezzz! Thats teh 1337!! Respectzzz!"

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    A MVP to me is what Kobe has done he was using his teammates pretty much up until the losing streak started and then said you know what this team is struggling and said get on my back theres no way in hell we wont make the playoffs. Damn i wish we had that. And honestly Kobe and shaq needed each other for those 3 rings.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    It was never ever given simply to the best player. Wilt averaged 50 and 25 and didn't win it. Oscar didn't win it in his triple double season.

    It has never been defined but it is certainly understood by the voters that the league MVP is:

    1) an elite player
    2) on one of the very best teams
    3) who leads his team to an extremely successful regular season, placing them in a position to contend for an NBA title



    I have no problems with this accepted definition
    Agreed. Though I am willing to buy into arguments that discuss just how much worse off a team would be without a player, even in the case of blah teams. Kobe gets considered by this factor.

    And I'm one of those that says "yeah, but look at the competition". This isn't freaking golf. What, if a RB goes for 150 yards on the Colts defense no one says "sure, but its the Colts run D"? Of course they do.

    Kobe was great in these four games and extremely efficient for a volume scorer. It is great no matter what, but it still has to be taken with a grain of salt. Have you forgotten that Kobe got lit up by Arenas AND Redd earlier in the year?


    I'm a big Yanks fan, but I totally buy into the anti-ARod version of his own stat stuffing, where people notice how un-timely a lot of his stats are, vs bad pitching or in games where it doesn't matter.

    MVP implies getting your team through the TOUGH GAMES more than stat loading in easier matchups. So as good as this run has been, Kobe won't get MVP unless he pairs it with some 25-30 point efficient nights vs playoff race competition, leading his team to some critical playoff seed affecting wins.

    This isn't just an anti-Kobe thing, as I said ARod catches it too, and in fact the corollary of this view is what helped raise Reggie Miller's status as a HOF caliber player.



    And is it really so much to ask him to bring it vs Houston or PHX, or even the 2 games vs Denver? If he's the MVP he will and the Lakers will get some big wins in at least 2-3 of those games because of him.

    The argument "how can you not give him the MVP just because he had some bad games vs good teams? look what he did vs the crap teams" isn't very strong.


    BTW - regarding the Lakers losing and winning streaks, again you look at the schedule. I was talking about this back in NOV when they had played something like 8 of 9 at Staples (including a road game vs the Clips). Was the streak about Kobe's role or about playing easier teams finally? A road back to back after an OT game and going to the East coast, a trip to PHX, a visit from DAL...and Kobe led the Lakers in scoring in 6 of those 7 straight losses by the way.

    Vs OKC he took 29 shots for 50 points, but in the loss to Minny he took 30 for 40, not exactly different strategy there. He also threw up 11-28 vs PHX and 12-27 vs PHI. So let's get off the "he was asked to shoot more and that turned it around". He shot just as much in several of those losses, he just MISSED A LOT. That's your MVP, a guy that goes 11-28 vs a prime contender or even 12-27 vs a non-playoff team from the East???

    Let me guess, you leave those games off the MVP application, right?

    Cripes, the Lakers won IN SPITE of his dreadful shooting vs Golden St and Utah less than a month ago. That also doesn't say MVP.

    So his record isn't just obviously all great and MVP caliber. If it weren't for some of those games I mentioned he would be the obvious MVP. Of couse the Lakers would have won a few more of those games too. It goes hand in hand.

  18. #43
    Member Roferr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    A MVP to me is what Kobe has done he was using his teammates pretty much up until the losing streak started and then said you know what this team is struggling and said get on my back theres no way in hell we wont make the playoffs. Damn i wish we had that. And honestly Kobe and shaq needed each other for those 3 rings.
    MVP's don't come from mediocre teams. If Kobe continues this and the Lakers win 12 out of their last 13 games, then maybe Kobe would have an outside shot at it.
    .

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Kobe is the biggest offensive threat of our generation. It's hard to compare him to Chamberlin because Wilt was like a College player playing with 7th graders, compared in size and talent. This is the new age, and kobe is even better then M.J. M.J went off but I have never seen M.J be tripled team fake left, then right and then shoot a fade away on the right three point line and hit nothing but bottom. Kobe Is proving a point, he is showing he can score at any give time. Not only is kobe the best of our generation he is by far the most underrated player superstar EVER. I watch him almost every game and Sportscenter doesn't even cover Half of what he does in games. Unless he scores 50 or 60 he doesn't get any credit. The utah game at the beginning of the season, I still think about because it was such an impressive offensive display. He hit every single shot in the third quarter and we aren;t talking easy shots. Kobe should be MVP no doubt...

  20. #45
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Just a reminder

    Nash is at 11.6 assists with a 47% 3pt average, overall FG% of 53.6% for 19 a night. He's 88% from the FT to boot and has 3.5 rebounds.

    Dirk is at 9.5 rebounds with a 42% 3pt average, overall FG% of 50%, 90% from the FT line and even has 3.5 assists going per night.

    Kobe shoots and scores the most, but his FG% is only at 46.7% and his 3pt number is a rather bland 36%. He is shooting FTs at an 87% rate himself which is strong. His 5.8 rebounds and 5.3 assists are great numbers, but considering that Dirk and Nash are only a couple lower on their weaker categories and 4-6 higher on their strong ones, it seems to indicate that they offer more in total. He gets credit for all-around game of course.

    Kobe is damn impressive. It just happens that like Wilt found with Russell, so is his competition.

    The Lakers are 34-30 with Kobe (.531)
    They are 3-2 without him (.600)

    The Suns are 50-12 with Nash (.806)
    They are 2-4 without him (.333)

    The Mavs are 56-11 with Dirk
    They are 1-0 without him...not really any kind of sample at all. That win was at Denver with AI but without Melo. Dirk only missed 1 game last year too. Maybe not missing games should count toward his voting actually.


    In 14 of the last 16 games Nash has gone EITHER for 10+ assists or scored 20+ points on 80%+ FG shooting. Sometimes both. In one of those 2 he didn't he was 4-7 with 8 assists in a win over HOU and in the other he was 9-14 with 9 assists in a loss at Philly (both 50%+ nights and 8+ assists, these are his BAD games). That's just how insanely off the hook Nash's game is right now, right in the heat of the playoff race.

    In that same span Kobe has had ONE game of 10+ assists, ONE game of 10+ rebounds, and SIX games where he shot 19+ FGAs at a 41% rate or worse (2 were below 34% even). That's his bad games, 6-19 (32%) with 9 rebounds and 3 assist in a home loss vs Dallas just 2 weeks ago.

    Nash is paid to pass the ball and add in 15-20 points a night. He does this EVERY night. Kobe is paid to fill it up. Most nights he does this, but there are plenty of nights he fails pretty badly at it.


    Would Kobe be MVP if Nash/Dirk weren't around, certainly. But they are around and they are putting up nights just as sick. So sick people are bored with it. Nash is putting up MAGIC JOHNSON caliber assists, but with much better shooting/scoring to go with it. And I'm pretty sure Magic's Lakers had more talent than the current Suns do.

    While we are at it, Dirk's numbers are rather similar to Bird's (reb, 3p% fg%, a couple lower on assist though), another guy with plenty of talent around him.

    You put Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes in the same season together you are going to have a couple of great seasons that don't result in an MVP award. Only one can win, that's the tough break on it (unless there is a tie in the votes I suppose).

  21. #46
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Kobe Is proving a point, he is showing he can score at any give time.
    No, he can't. He's proving that this year. That's how he has games like 7-21 and 12-27. Some nights he is unable to score any time he wants or even when his team absolutely needs it. It seems that people just brush those games under the carpet for some reason.

    WHILE IN THIS ZONE he's been virtually unstoppable. He was very stoppable many other times this season, including THIS month.

  22. #47

    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    I don't think that Kobe is MVP but I'm not going act like this scoring run is just an insignificant blip against bad teams. Every other player in the NBA plays the same teams and not one has come close to what Kobe's done. He's a stud.

    By the way when did people start liking Jordan? I rooted against him every time I saw him play.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  23. #48
    Seize The Day carpediem024's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Well whatever everyone thinks, if he should win MVP or not, at least we can all agree on that hes on of the best to play the game.

    So do you guys think he will drop 50+ on GS??

    I say he has 60% chance. Jack will probably guard him, and Jack is a decent defender, and if he does score 50 again, I think he should win MVP.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
    press pause on the second slow-mo replay around 0:12 mark

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Kobe's the 2nd-best shooting guard in NBA history, but he's had that title for 3 years now. His status in basketball annals isn't going to change anytime soon.

    He might be the best scoring guard ever, though. That title seems to be his now.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  25. #50
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe.....MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh4d3 View Post
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    I really wish I could enjoy the way Kobe's been playing, but he's such an egotistical *** (amongst other things) that I just can't find myself being happy for him.
    It's the "amongst other things" portion that is the bigger problem. Many players are egotistical. Kobe goes beyond that to include a very selfish nature destructive to his team. The Lakers could have had a string of dominant teams if he was a good team mate and could co-exist with Shaq.

    ...and the shot at MJ is total BS. MJ was generally a good team mate and made his team mates better...something Kobe is not. MJ might have been demanding, but he made some pretty average players play at a higher level. Kobe simply points the finger...and that's why he is a loser without the big fella.

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