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3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

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  • #46
    Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Originally posted by Since86 View Post
    It doesn't matter if you or I think it was ridiculous. It happened, and that's how history is going to document it.

    Ron missed 70+ some odd games, and Jackson missed 30. End of story. They missed 100+ games combined because they acted like complete idiots.

    Their stupid behavior cost them and the franchise a lot more than wins with their actions.
    No-one seems to remember JO was also suspended. It's funny to me how the attitude about the situation changed from "Those suspensions are BS" to "Those guys deserved it because I don't like them now".

    I know my opinion on the subject is unpopular, but that what it is...my opinion. My opinion is Jamaal Tinsley is a good point guard, Stephen Jackson is a good small forward, Al Harrington is a good forward and Ron Artest was a beast at one time. Despite all of their silliness, they have been/will be moved because they can't co-exist with Rick Carlisle. That's 4 of the 5 best players on the team since Rick took over.
    I'm in these bands
    The Humans
    Dr. Goldfoot
    The Bar Brawlers
    ME

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

      What's he gonna say? Tinsley is a better PG than Dunleavy is a SG/SF. He's a better PG than Murphy is a PF/C. He is the second best player on the team, for better or worse.

      I guess you all would like to see Tinsley benched so Darrell Armstrong and Keith McLeod get some starts, right? Armstrong - Dunleavy - Granger - Murphy - Foster will get us some wins, right?

      I don't like Tinsley's offensive awareness, but I'll definately take him over the alternatives, until draft day at least.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

        Seth, if anything, the GS trade was a prevemptive strike to prevent another trade demand/ hold the franchise hostage situation.

        Did the team take an on-court downgrade? Yes.

        Beyond just the on-court stuff, did the team take a downgrade? No. You're seriously underestimating the baggage that was taken to GS - however those players are enjoying their honeymoon period but the problems will return (maybe not with Al, he seems to only have a problem with Carlisle and not anyone else.)

        Yes, this team is worse on the court. But the "old" team would've found a different way to get to the exact same place - it wasn't going anywhere either.

        At least we have some system players here who might be better when they get an entire training camp with thier new coach/ teammates. They're up and down. Major in-season trades don't usually pay benefits immediately. Too much is shaken up, and continuity matters more than its given credit for (assuming that the situation is working right in the first place.)

        As for Tinsley, I said way back in "This Team is Built for the Regular Season" all those months ago that, for better or worse, he is our second best player.

        Granger? No. We can wish that he was, but he is not our #2 option.
        Dunleavy? Right now he's probably our third best player. When he's our #4 option, we'll be in good shape.

        Murphy? I like Troy, but he's got to get tougher, physically.

        Tinsley is our #2 option. This has been building for a long time. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'd much rather have Tinsley creating opportunities for everyone else. But it is what it is.

        Granger, as much as I like him, is quickly becoming expendable in my book because we've got too many SFs and no SGs. What could a combo of Granger and Foster get us in terms of a new backcourt?
        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
        And life itself, rushing over me
        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
          Carlisle is certainly not the best in terms of player-relations. But is Rick responsible for Ron's relational problems in Sacremento? Nope. Rick was handed a head case, and you could even argue that it was his relational coaching skills that got the Ps at least one or two good seasons with the guy.
          Or, when Rick benched Artest for "conduct detrimental to winning", he went to management, threw up his hands and said "get rid of this guy". But management said, "We'll handle him, you just coach the rest of the team." I'm just saying, there was a lot of extra behind the scenes stuff here. I blame Rick for a number of things, but not things that he did not have responsbility for. Management was trying to coddle him to good behavior without alientating the rest of the team, and that had a lot to do with why his Miami-meltdown that season was a major blow to the team - mentally. Even with all of his preferential treatment, he still couldn't stay focused on the 'team' (because he wasn't mentally capable of it). That's 100% on management.

          Is it Rick's fault that Jackson packs a gun and shoots it in a scrape with idiots like an adolescent? Is it Rick's fault that he makes a complete *** of himself and gets booed by fans? Is it Rick's fault that he has no consideration for others or the larger picture and jacks it up reguarly with 14 on the shot clock?

          Is it Rick's fault that Al Harrington developed a similar attitude of offensive selfishness and demanded a trade? That Al couldn't work out a way to share the ball with his best bud? That he got more enamored with his three shot than his defense the past few years?
          Yes.

          Rick isn't the cause. He may not have been able to fix it, but it's arguable whether the Zen master or any other coach could have fixed these bad apples.

          I'm pleased to have Murphleavy instead. We may not be winning as much right now, but if we ever do, it will be based on the right foundation. I'm thinking of a quote about gaining the world but losing your soul.
          Fine points. However, I think its safe to say that Rick exacerbated the problems that alread existed because of his lousy interpersonal skills.
          Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
          Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
          Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
          Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
          And life itself, rushing over me
          Life itself, the wind in black elms,
          Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

            Originally posted by 3rdStrike View Post
            What's he gonna say? Tinsley is a better PG than Dunleavy is a SG/SF. He's a better PG than Murphy is a PF/C. He is the second best player on the team, for better or worse.

            I guess you all would like to see Tinsley benched so Darrell Armstrong and Keith McLeod get some starts, right? Armstrong - Dunleavy - Granger - Murphy - Foster will get us some wins, right?

            I don't like Tinsley's offensive awareness, but I'll definately take him over the alternatives, until draft day at least.
            I'd like to see him say that JT is one of our veterans, and when the team is struggling like this, he needs to keep his head on straight. Or something to that effect.

            Benching him would be fine with me to let the team know what type of effort he expects. Ultimately, if JT learned from this or not, it could help the rest of the team know how they should act if they want to be a winning team.

            He's easily the most talented PG on the roster. But even though he's been here for what, 5 or 6 years now, can you say he really makes our team better? Consistently, I mean.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

              Do you think that Jerry Krause really wanted to get rid of Brad Miller and take Jalen's max contract?

              No, but he knew he had damaged goods in Artest and felt that was the best he could get.

              The difference was, that team also had 365,657,298 other problems, so they just kept right on losing before and after the "discounted" trades.

              Hopefully SJax, Harrington, and Saras all improve their absolutely rotten attitudes (on a permanent basis, not just for the honeymoon period) with Nellie. Otherwise, Donnie planted a ticking bomb inside that franchise.
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                Originally posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post

                He's easily the most talented PG on the roster. But even though he's been here for what, 5 or 6 years now, can you say he really makes our team better? Consistently, I mean.
                When you consider the alternatives...yeah. I know he's the current whipping boy and has brought some of it on himself but the fact is he's better than alot of point guards in the world. Since the trade, he's somewhere around 14.5 ppg and 7.5 apg with a 2.35 Ast/TO. That's pretty good really and his combo of offense/defense is way better than any other point on this team.

                We as fans should start focusing on why this team is losing and that's because Jamaal Tinsley and Marquis Daniels are two of the three most important players on this team. Tinsley shouldn't carry any of the scoring load responsibilities and Daniels should be a sixth man. We have no starting 2 guard, no quality center, a very green small forward and a franchise power forward that can't stay healthy.

                This team needs quite a bit if you step back and really look. A new coach, a shooting guard that is a real difference maker, another year or two for Granger, a happy and healthy Tinsley, a healthy JO, a bruising center that combines Murphy/Foster's abilities, a backup point guard and a sense of who they are.
                I'm in these bands
                The Humans
                Dr. Goldfoot
                The Bar Brawlers
                ME

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                  Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                  No-one seems to remember JO was also suspended. It's funny to me how the attitude about the situation changed from "Those suspensions are BS" to "Those guys deserved it because I don't like them now".
                  Show where one person has said they deserved it. You won't find it. Do I think the suspensions were overboard? Yes, I do.

                  But guess what, neither you nor I have/had the power to change it. They only person who had that power decided to keep Ron's and Jax's plenty unchanged. Get over it. It happened, and your complaining about it 3 years later doesn't change it one iota.

                  They missed 100+ games because they went into the stands whether you like the penalty or not. Personal opinion doesn't mean squat 3yrs after the fact.

                  I happen to think that paying 70bucks for parking in a lot a BSU without the proper parking tag is a big ridiculous, but I still payed it when I got caught.

                  Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                  I know my opinion on the subject is unpopular, but that what it is...my opinion. My opinion is Jamaal Tinsley is a good point guard, Stephen Jackson is a good small forward, Al Harrington is a good forward and Ron Artest was a beast at one time. Despite all of their silliness, they have been/will be moved because they can't co-exist with Rick Carlisle. That's 4 of the 5 best players on the team since Rick took over.
                  Despite all their silliness? Okay, getting in one bar fight is an isolated incident, but two in less than 6mons?

                  RC didn't have the player support :cough: JO :cough: to allow Al to fit here. He would put up 20 one night then have 4 the next. He was wildly inconsistant and didn't fit this offense :cough: JO :cough:.

                  Jackson was a drain on this franchise just from a fan standpoint, and that's all that needs to be factored in. He was boo'ed for over a year for anything and everything. There was no way he could produce here, there is no way the fans would be able to support him. He was done, from offcourt incidents and from the fans. He HAD to be moved.

                  I refuse to even talk about Jamaal individually.

                  And I really doubt you even want to get into the topic of Ron and his "silliness."


                  RC's hand was forced by management to open up the system, and allow the team to run. RC was forced by a player meeting 8games into the season to slow it back down.

                  Rick has had to put up with more crap in the past 4seasons than any other coach in the league BY FAR. He's dealt with suspensions from flagrant fouls/techs, brawls, music sales, sinuspoutis, injuries, trades......

                  Rick has lead this team to overachieve year in and year out, except this one. Like I've said numerous times, this team doesn't need a freaking coach. It needs the world's best babysitter.

                  I hope Rick quits, because he deserves a hell of a lot better than this group of clowns.

                  EDIT: Jay please explain how it's Rick's fault that Jackson thought it was a good idea to shoot a firearm into the air.
                  Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                    Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                    When you consider the alternatives...yeah. I know he's the current whipping boy and has brought some of it on himself but the fact is he's better than alot of point guards in the world. Since the trade, he's somewhere around 14.5 ppg and 7.5 apg with a 2.35 Ast/TO. That's pretty good really and his combo of offense/defense is way better than any other point on this team.

                    We as fans should start focusing on why this team is losing and that's because Jamaal Tinsley and Marquis Daniels are two of the three most important players on this team. Tinsley shouldn't carry any of the scoring load responsibilities and Daniels should be a sixth man. We have no starting 2 guard, no quality center, a very green small forward and a franchise power forward that can't stay healthy.

                    This team needs quite a bit if you step back and really look. A new coach, a shooting guard that is a real difference maker, another year or two for Granger, a happy and healthy Tinsley, a healthy JO, a bruising center that combines Murphy/Foster's abilities, a backup point guard and a sense of who they are.
                    It's like Reggie said the other night: when JT is right, he's really good. You're right, he's one of the best in the league. But it's like Reggie also said: he doesn't bring it every night. Or, understanding that very few "bring it" every night, there are too many nights he takes off.

                    Carlisle and Tinsley are clearly a bad fit, and have been for a while. Carlisle needs Chucky Atkins, Tinsley needs Pat Riley. This clearly ain't working. But they are equally part of the problem.

                    Agreed on the laundry list of other problems you listed. IMO, SG is the most glaring weakness. Dunleavey is a good back-up, rotation SF, especially when he gets a more consistent jumper. Starting SG is not the best role, especially on this team.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                      He's allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

                      Usually, when we hear about a coach that loses the players, its because they are strict disciplinarians.

                      Here, we've got a coach that can't seem to influence his players to think "team first", but he doesn't seem to be strict and the players still hate him. Something is wrong.

                      I wish we were fans of a league that didn't have guaranteed contracts for the players. But when push comes to shove, when both the players and coaches are to blame, the first thing you do is change the coach. We, as fans, may not like it or the message it sends, but that's life.

                      Does anybody buy an NBA ticket to see such-and-such coach? Hell, no. Its a players league, and everybody knows it.
                      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                      And life itself, rushing over me
                      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                        If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's. His job is to get these guys playing. They already know how to play. His job is to motivate them to go out there and do it. Jamaal & Rick= bad fit...Stephen & Rick = bad fit...Al & Rick = bad fit(2X)...Ron & Rick = bad fit...Runi & Rick= bad fit...Daniels & Rick= bad fit...Harrison & Rick = bad fit... do you see where I'm going with this.

                        And again JO was suspended for the brawl, too. You guys keep refering to off-court incidents that have no bearing on what happens between the lines. The bar fights have no bearing on the Pacers being 2-13 since the All-Star break.

                        The bottom line is this is a crappy team and I blame Rick Carlisle's inability to keep these guys together. Whoever is making the trades, Walsh or Bird or both, haven't done anything to help either.
                        I'm in these bands
                        The Humans
                        Dr. Goldfoot
                        The Bar Brawlers
                        ME

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                          Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                          If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's. His job is to get these guys playing. They already know how to play. His job is to motivate them to go out there and do it. Jamaal & Rick= bad fit...Stephen & Rick = bad fit...Al & Rick = bad fit(2X)...Ron & Rick = bad fit...Runi & Rick= bad fit...Daniels & Rick= bad fit...Harrison & Rick = bad fit... do you see where I'm going with this.
                          WHAT!?

                          I can think of a million good reasons why they should go out and play. If I'm the Simons and a player walks in and says that he needs motivation to play, you know what my response would be?

                          "Fine, you're suspended without pay for 10 games. See how much motivation you need to play after that."

                          THEY ARE PAID TO PLAY A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! They live a life of luxury to put a stupid orange ball through a stupid orange rim.

                          Do you go up to your boss and say, "Boss I'm not doing my job good enough, I need you to movitate me." Hell no you don't. He/she would laugh at you and tell you to find another one.

                          They are PROFESSIONALS, and it's time they started acting like it. There are thousands of college players that would love to be in their position, but aren't good enough to make it.


                          Their *** needs to be sat down for a while and not collecting a paycheck if they need motivation.

                          EDIT: I'm done with this conversation, if the discussion is going to turn as absurd as this. A paid professional needs motivation to play......Go talk to Jimmie Snap Hunter about motivation, or anyother D-Leaguer who is just itching for their opportunity.
                          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                          • #58
                            Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                            Originally posted by Jay View Post
                            He's allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

                            Usually, when we hear about a coach that loses the players, its because they are strict disciplinarians.

                            Here, we've got a coach that can't seem to influence his players to think "team first", but he doesn't seem to be strict and the players still hate him. Something is wrong.

                            I wish we were fans of a league that didn't have guaranteed contracts for the players. But when push comes to shove, when both the players and coaches are to blame, the first thing you do is change the coach. We, as fans, may not like it or the message it sends, but that's life.

                            Does anybody buy an NBA ticket to see such-and-such coach? Hell, no. Its a players league, and everybody knows it.

                            So maybe hiring a personal consultant for the rest of the Pacers, like the Kings are looking into for Ron, would be a good idea?

                            How old are these "men?" How old do you think they need to be to realize that firing a gun into the air is a criminal act? How old do you think they need to be to understand that you're already on thin ice and getting into another club fight wouldn't be the smartest thing to do?

                            http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/responsibility

                            I had more as a Jr. High student than some of the Pacer players.
                            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                            • #59
                              Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                              Why you think real world work life and being a professional athlete are comparable is beyond me. Your motivation is to not get fired. Jamaal's motivation is....his job is guaranteed whether he plays well or not. These guys have to be motivated. That's the biggest job of a professional head coach...motivation. The Simon's are absentee owners. They don't suspend players. The motivation for d-leaguers and Snap Hunter is they don't have guaranteed paychecks or 30 million dollars. Their motivation is to get to a position where Tinsley is. Once you get there you need something else to motivate you.
                              I'm in these bands
                              The Humans
                              Dr. Goldfoot
                              The Bar Brawlers
                              ME

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                              • #60
                                Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                                Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                                If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's.

                                With that logic, it's Rick Carlisle's fault that Artest brought it every night.

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