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Thread: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

  1. #51
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Do you think that Jerry Krause really wanted to get rid of Brad Miller and take Jalen's max contract?

    No, but he knew he had damaged goods in Artest and felt that was the best he could get.

    The difference was, that team also had 365,657,298 other problems, so they just kept right on losing before and after the "discounted" trades.

    Hopefully SJax, Harrington, and Saras all improve their absolutely rotten attitudes (on a permanent basis, not just for the honeymoon period) with Nellie. Otherwise, Donnie planted a ticking bomb inside that franchise.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #52
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
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    He's easily the most talented PG on the roster. But even though he's been here for what, 5 or 6 years now, can you say he really makes our team better? Consistently, I mean.
    When you consider the alternatives...yeah. I know he's the current whipping boy and has brought some of it on himself but the fact is he's better than alot of point guards in the world. Since the trade, he's somewhere around 14.5 ppg and 7.5 apg with a 2.35 Ast/TO. That's pretty good really and his combo of offense/defense is way better than any other point on this team.

    We as fans should start focusing on why this team is losing and that's because Jamaal Tinsley and Marquis Daniels are two of the three most important players on this team. Tinsley shouldn't carry any of the scoring load responsibilities and Daniels should be a sixth man. We have no starting 2 guard, no quality center, a very green small forward and a franchise power forward that can't stay healthy.

    This team needs quite a bit if you step back and really look. A new coach, a shooting guard that is a real difference maker, another year or two for Granger, a happy and healthy Tinsley, a healthy JO, a bruising center that combines Murphy/Foster's abilities, a backup point guard and a sense of who they are.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    No-one seems to remember JO was also suspended. It's funny to me how the attitude about the situation changed from "Those suspensions are BS" to "Those guys deserved it because I don't like them now".
    Show where one person has said they deserved it. You won't find it. Do I think the suspensions were overboard? Yes, I do.

    But guess what, neither you nor I have/had the power to change it. They only person who had that power decided to keep Ron's and Jax's plenty unchanged. Get over it. It happened, and your complaining about it 3 years later doesn't change it one iota.

    They missed 100+ games because they went into the stands whether you like the penalty or not. Personal opinion doesn't mean squat 3yrs after the fact.

    I happen to think that paying 70bucks for parking in a lot a BSU without the proper parking tag is a big ridiculous, but I still payed it when I got caught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I know my opinion on the subject is unpopular, but that what it is...my opinion. My opinion is Jamaal Tinsley is a good point guard, Stephen Jackson is a good small forward, Al Harrington is a good forward and Ron Artest was a beast at one time. Despite all of their silliness, they have been/will be moved because they can't co-exist with Rick Carlisle. That's 4 of the 5 best players on the team since Rick took over.
    Despite all their silliness? Okay, getting in one bar fight is an isolated incident, but two in less than 6mons?

    RC didn't have the player support :cough: JO :cough: to allow Al to fit here. He would put up 20 one night then have 4 the next. He was wildly inconsistant and didn't fit this offense :cough: JO :cough:.

    Jackson was a drain on this franchise just from a fan standpoint, and that's all that needs to be factored in. He was boo'ed for over a year for anything and everything. There was no way he could produce here, there is no way the fans would be able to support him. He was done, from offcourt incidents and from the fans. He HAD to be moved.

    I refuse to even talk about Jamaal individually.

    And I really doubt you even want to get into the topic of Ron and his "silliness."


    RC's hand was forced by management to open up the system, and allow the team to run. RC was forced by a player meeting 8games into the season to slow it back down.

    Rick has had to put up with more crap in the past 4seasons than any other coach in the league BY FAR. He's dealt with suspensions from flagrant fouls/techs, brawls, music sales, sinuspoutis, injuries, trades......

    Rick has lead this team to overachieve year in and year out, except this one. Like I've said numerous times, this team doesn't need a freaking coach. It needs the world's best babysitter.

    I hope Rick quits, because he deserves a hell of a lot better than this group of clowns.

    EDIT: Jay please explain how it's Rick's fault that Jackson thought it was a good idea to shoot a firearm into the air.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    When you consider the alternatives...yeah. I know he's the current whipping boy and has brought some of it on himself but the fact is he's better than alot of point guards in the world. Since the trade, he's somewhere around 14.5 ppg and 7.5 apg with a 2.35 Ast/TO. That's pretty good really and his combo of offense/defense is way better than any other point on this team.

    We as fans should start focusing on why this team is losing and that's because Jamaal Tinsley and Marquis Daniels are two of the three most important players on this team. Tinsley shouldn't carry any of the scoring load responsibilities and Daniels should be a sixth man. We have no starting 2 guard, no quality center, a very green small forward and a franchise power forward that can't stay healthy.

    This team needs quite a bit if you step back and really look. A new coach, a shooting guard that is a real difference maker, another year or two for Granger, a happy and healthy Tinsley, a healthy JO, a bruising center that combines Murphy/Foster's abilities, a backup point guard and a sense of who they are.
    It's like Reggie said the other night: when JT is right, he's really good. You're right, he's one of the best in the league. But it's like Reggie also said: he doesn't bring it every night. Or, understanding that very few "bring it" every night, there are too many nights he takes off.

    Carlisle and Tinsley are clearly a bad fit, and have been for a while. Carlisle needs Chucky Atkins, Tinsley needs Pat Riley. This clearly ain't working. But they are equally part of the problem.

    Agreed on the laundry list of other problems you listed. IMO, SG is the most glaring weakness. Dunleavey is a good back-up, rotation SF, especially when he gets a more consistent jumper. Starting SG is not the best role, especially on this team.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    He's allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

    Usually, when we hear about a coach that loses the players, its because they are strict disciplinarians.

    Here, we've got a coach that can't seem to influence his players to think "team first", but he doesn't seem to be strict and the players still hate him. Something is wrong.

    I wish we were fans of a league that didn't have guaranteed contracts for the players. But when push comes to shove, when both the players and coaches are to blame, the first thing you do is change the coach. We, as fans, may not like it or the message it sends, but that's life.

    Does anybody buy an NBA ticket to see such-and-such coach? Hell, no. Its a players league, and everybody knows it.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #56
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's. His job is to get these guys playing. They already know how to play. His job is to motivate them to go out there and do it. Jamaal & Rick= bad fit...Stephen & Rick = bad fit...Al & Rick = bad fit(2X)...Ron & Rick = bad fit...Runi & Rick= bad fit...Daniels & Rick= bad fit...Harrison & Rick = bad fit... do you see where I'm going with this.

    And again JO was suspended for the brawl, too. You guys keep refering to off-court incidents that have no bearing on what happens between the lines. The bar fights have no bearing on the Pacers being 2-13 since the All-Star break.

    The bottom line is this is a crappy team and I blame Rick Carlisle's inability to keep these guys together. Whoever is making the trades, Walsh or Bird or both, haven't done anything to help either.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's. His job is to get these guys playing. They already know how to play. His job is to motivate them to go out there and do it. Jamaal & Rick= bad fit...Stephen & Rick = bad fit...Al & Rick = bad fit(2X)...Ron & Rick = bad fit...Runi & Rick= bad fit...Daniels & Rick= bad fit...Harrison & Rick = bad fit... do you see where I'm going with this.
    WHAT!?

    I can think of a million good reasons why they should go out and play. If I'm the Simons and a player walks in and says that he needs motivation to play, you know what my response would be?

    "Fine, you're suspended without pay for 10 games. See how much motivation you need to play after that."

    THEY ARE PAID TO PLAY A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! They live a life of luxury to put a stupid orange ball through a stupid orange rim.

    Do you go up to your boss and say, "Boss I'm not doing my job good enough, I need you to movitate me." Hell no you don't. He/she would laugh at you and tell you to find another one.

    They are PROFESSIONALS, and it's time they started acting like it. There are thousands of college players that would love to be in their position, but aren't good enough to make it.


    Their *** needs to be sat down for a while and not collecting a paycheck if they need motivation.

    EDIT: I'm done with this conversation, if the discussion is going to turn as absurd as this. A paid professional needs motivation to play......Go talk to Jimmie Snap Hunter about motivation, or anyother D-Leaguer who is just itching for their opportunity.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
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    He's allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

    Usually, when we hear about a coach that loses the players, its because they are strict disciplinarians.

    Here, we've got a coach that can't seem to influence his players to think "team first", but he doesn't seem to be strict and the players still hate him. Something is wrong.

    I wish we were fans of a league that didn't have guaranteed contracts for the players. But when push comes to shove, when both the players and coaches are to blame, the first thing you do is change the coach. We, as fans, may not like it or the message it sends, but that's life.

    Does anybody buy an NBA ticket to see such-and-such coach? Hell, no. Its a players league, and everybody knows it.

    So maybe hiring a personal consultant for the rest of the Pacers, like the Kings are looking into for Ron, would be a good idea?

    How old are these "men?" How old do you think they need to be to realize that firing a gun into the air is a criminal act? How old do you think they need to be to understand that you're already on thin ice and getting into another club fight wouldn't be the smartest thing to do?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/responsibility

    I had more as a Jr. High student than some of the Pacer players.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Why you think real world work life and being a professional athlete are comparable is beyond me. Your motivation is to not get fired. Jamaal's motivation is....his job is guaranteed whether he plays well or not. These guys have to be motivated. That's the biggest job of a professional head coach...motivation. The Simon's are absentee owners. They don't suspend players. The motivation for d-leaguers and Snap Hunter is they don't have guaranteed paychecks or 30 million dollars. Their motivation is to get to a position where Tinsley is. Once you get there you need something else to motivate you.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    If Jamaal doesn't bring every night, who's fault is that? It's Rick Carlisle's.

    With that logic, it's Rick Carlisle's fault that Artest brought it every night.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Like I said, sit him down for a couple games without pay and see how much motiviation he needs.

    From the stand point of the Simons that are investing millions of dollars in their players, the players better find something.

    I'm not saying a coach should be able to just roll out the ball and coach, but he motivating a player should be farther down on the list than #1, which it's currently at.

    Another good reason why I hate guarunteed contracts.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    These aren't normal people. They're people with absurd amounts of money that only the smartest of all people (and lottery winners) could ever dream of attaining and they're really not prepared to act like people with this kind of money. Throw into the equation they've been celebrities at their high school, college and now NBA home city (depending on if you're a recognizable player or not even the whole country or world) with yes men and posse's surrounding them, it's no wonder they feel a sense of entitlement. They have an entitlement. People worship this guys ( right or wrong makes no difference it's true)

    Point is these aren't normal people with a sense of responsibility. They're people who've been coddled their entire lives by coaches, teachers and fans. Many of these guys aren't well-suited to be mature responsible adults. They have no idea what it's like to be an adult without millions of dollars and fame and a real job that doesn't fly you around the country so people can cheer you while you're working and you can drive whatever car you want or buy any house you want. A world where women aren't throwing themselves at you and teenagers are asking for your autoraph at the mall when you're just trying to get some prescription sunglasses because you left your's at your summer home in Belize and won't be back ther for two more months.

    Point being these aren't normal people who live in Muncie and buy groceries at Kroger on Thursday night when the new ads come out.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    These aren't normal people. They're people with absurd amounts of money that only the smartest of all people (and lottery winners) could ever dream of attaining and they're really not prepared to act like people with this kind of money. Throw into the equation they've been celebrities at their high school, college and now NBA home city (depending on if you're a recognizable player or not even the whole country or world) with yes men and posse's surrounding them, it's no wonder they feel a sense of entitlement. They have an entitlement. People worship this guys ( right or wrong makes no difference it's true)

    Point is these aren't normal people with a sense of responsibility. They're people who've been coddled their entire lives by coaches, teachers and fans. Many of these guys aren't well-suited to be mature responsible adults. They have no idea what it's like to be an adult without millions of dollars and fame and a real job that doesn't fly you around the country so people can cheer you while you're working and you can drive whatever car you want or buy any house you want. A world where women aren't throwing themselves at you and teenagers are asking for your autoraph at the mall when you're just trying to get some prescription sunglasses because you left your's at your summer home in Belize and won't be back ther for two more months.

    Point being these aren't normal people who live in Muncie and buy groceries at Kroger on Thursday night when the new ads come out.
    All valid points. Lord knows I wasn't mature enough at 21 to always steer clear of being a knucklehead. I cringe to think what I would have done with the circumstances you listed (well, it might have been nice to find out.) Don't know that I would have charged into the stands, or shot up a parking lot at a strip club, but who knows?

    That said, the NBA has, what, 30 teams with 15 or so players each? That's roughly 450 players? All working under the same circumstances. So why have we been so blessed with guys who assault fans, strip club patrons, and (allegedly) nightclub owners? What percentage of NBA players "run afoul of the law"? 10% even?

    Does it really make sense that this is all Rick Carlisle's fault? IMO, he's a weak communicator/motivator/interpersonal so and so, but of the 30 teams, he's THAT much worse than the other 29 coaches? Really? Even more than Terry Stotts (with no comparably assaultive players)? Isiah Thomas? Sam Mitchell? He's so much worse than any other coach that 3 of his players (past and present) are chronic law-breakers?

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    These aren't normal people. They're people with absurd amounts of money that only the smartest of all people (and lottery winners) could ever dream of attaining and they're really not prepared to act like people with this kind of money. Throw into the equation they've been celebrities at their high school, college and now NBA home city (depending on if you're a recognizable player or not even the whole country or world) with yes men and posse's surrounding them, it's no wonder they feel a sense of entitlement. They have an entitlement. People worship this guys ( right or wrong makes no difference it's true)

    Point is these aren't normal people with a sense of responsibility. They're people who've been coddled their entire lives by coaches, teachers and fans. Many of these guys aren't well-suited to be mature responsible adults. They have no idea what it's like to be an adult without millions of dollars and fame and a real job that doesn't fly you around the country so people can cheer you while you're working and you can drive whatever car you want or buy any house you want. A world where women aren't throwing themselves at you and teenagers are asking for your autoraph at the mall when you're just trying to get some prescription sunglasses because you left your's at your summer home in Belize and won't be back ther for two more months.

    Point being these aren't normal people who live in Muncie and buy groceries at Kroger on Thursday night when the new ads come out.
    So you are advocating that because these players don't live like the everyday Joe, that it is ok to do whatever the hell they want to do, and it is the coaches fault. What universe do you live in? No matter how much money a player makes, that does not excuse bad behavior or dogging it, because they can't jive with the coach. DR Phil, would be proud of you.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    DR Phil, would be proud of you.
    Now THAT is something you can really hang your hat on, Dr. Goldfoot.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Not advocating...just saying they aren't normal people and therfore really don't live by normal people standards.

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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Not advocating...just saying they aren't normal people and therfore really don't live by normal people standards.
    These excuses are ridiculous. I don't see Granger and Foster acting like that. Neither did a very long list of other players throughout the league...many who have been stroked a lot more than Jamaal. This is just another example of someone explaining away a problem that should be faced head on.

    This is not about him being different. This is entirely about character. He is not much different than many of the morons we house in our prisons. This tough guy from the streets of Brooklyn Stephon Marburyish attitude is the #1 problem. Last time I checked, Marbury was another talented underachiever who was better at UNDERMINING his team and his coaches than LEADING his team. This guy has LOSER written all over him.

    The truth is, Jamaal is a thug on the streets of Indianapolis and his bad character is on the national stage. He belongs with that segment of society...thugs on the streets...and will probably be going back there when he burns through his cash and no one wants to pay him anymore.

    The day he is not the starting PG for the Pacers will be the best day since Reggie Miller was drafted by this organization. I hope to God that day is this year.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Another good reason why I hate guarunteed contracts.
    We agree on that. But the owners are (or at least used to be) slimeballs, too.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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