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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

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  • can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

    i see it mentioned on pacers.com, but not many of the other teams seem to track it. is there a site that collects this for all teams, or is it a unique stat that only the pacers keep?

  • #2
    Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

    anyone? basically, a good source for all team's stat in this area, and maybe more of an explanation about what it actually says about a player?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

      26, maybe no one really knows the answer, but here is an earlier thread discussing plus and minus stats. Oh, by the way welcome to PD.

      http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...ighlight=minus
      You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

        26, the +/- is a stat used mostly by hockey clubs to determine player effectiveness on the ice. It translates to the NBA well too, just not football or baseball.

        It take the score when a player goes into the game and compares it to the score when said player leaves. for example: Score is 0-0 (Tip off) and the P's jump out to a 6-2 lead. JO comes out, so he gets a +4 for that stretch. Ike goes in for JO, and the team falls down to 8-12, thus Ike gets a -4. JO goes back in, score ends up 22-16, so JO's becomes +10.

        It's a good stat to see team play, but it can be misleading. Garbage timers may be made to look horrid, or bloody amazing. Also, stars on poor teams also look bad, as they are often losing throughout the game, then sit in garbage time when thee lead is slightly reduced. Runs by bench players, which are not uncommon, also skew the stats for all the starters, making them look bad.

        So, basically, like everything else, take it with a grain of salt. Hope that helps.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

          What Zoso said, and a lot of that was debated in more detail in the linked thread as well if you want to dig into it further. For now I'll add one simple thing, some people put the pending FTs on the player that was in when the foul happened, others just go straight by what the score literally was when a player came in/left, even if he had nothing to do with the FTs that are about to be made when he enters.


          Anyway, while +/- is up for discussion again, there have been a lot of games since the trade and the +/- is pretty rough on the results of the deal.

          Per48

          Jack 1.6
          Al -1.7
          Dun -3.2
          Troy -4.6

          And this with the huge +/- bump from the Atlanta game factored in. Troy and Dun are into the Tinsley/Granger range of TOTAL negative +/- despite being here for half the number of minutes.

          As problematic as Saras could be, he did leave with a 1.6 and +22 overall. Neither Diogu nor McLeod have had that success yet (but also aren't getting the minutes).

          Diogu has had more success than Powell, but Josh hardly played. Ike has 296 minutes already while Josh only got 64 in his time in Indy. To me the jury was still out on what Josh could do (and he's done fairly well in GS).

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

            Thanks for the other thread. It had a link to the nba.com area for league wide stats. I'm surprised at how the results stack up for the Pacers. Some players on the bottom I expected, others I didn't think would be so low.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

              Originally posted by dfcx26 View Post
              Thanks for the other thread. It had a link to the nba.com area for league wide stats. I'm surprised at how the results stack up for the Pacers. Some players on the bottom I expected, others I didn't think would be so low.
              Check out www.82games.com for plus/minus and many other related stat analyses.
              Read my Pacers blog:
              8points9seconds.com

              Follow my twitter:

              @8pts9secs

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

                Originally posted by dfcx26 View Post
                Thanks for the other thread. It had a link to the nba.com area for league wide stats. I'm surprised at how the results stack up for the Pacers. Some players on the bottom I expected, others I didn't think would be so low.
                And as said in the other thread, the better version of +/-, at least for comparing players on different teams, is the DIFFERENTIAL rather than just the +/-. That stat is simply the regular +/- (how the team did when you were on the court) minus the +/- without you on the court.

                JO starts 0-0
                JO leaves 6-8 (JO gets -2)
                JO returns 8-20 (without JO gets a -10)

                So his differential in that case is +8 (-2 -(-10)) or -2 + 10. That implies (roughly) that JO is more valuable to his team than a player that has a differential of +6 for another team, even if its the team playing and beating the Pacers at the time.


                Again, the issue remains all the other factors - your teammates, your opponents, the situation (blow-out vs close) and so on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

                  I don't care if +/- makes the GS trade look like the biggest steal in Pacers history, I think it's a useless, misleading stat. Four other players can drag you down or lift you up without you doing jack. Or, as is more likely the case, whatever good or bad you have done is skewed by what everyone else is doing. It's worthless number-crunching IMHO.

                  5-man +/- interests me more, but even then it depends on what the other team is doing as well to make the number. If Ron Artest is guarding Tracy McGrady, but Tracy hits 60% of his shots, then that stat will tell you a lineup with Ron in it has poor production (or at least that night). It probably had a lot more to do with Tracy being on fire than Ron Artest screwing up (though he was probably doing 100 other things that don't show up in the stats, but that's another thread).

                  I suppose it's not totally meaningless (thought it feels that way to me), but I wouldn't put much if any stock in it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

                    It probably had a lot more to do with Tracy being on fire than Ron Artest screwing up
                    Maybe on one night, but ultimately who is responsible for what the other team is able to do on a regular basis besides yourself? What you have done is assume that over and over Ron is getting torched by a "hot" TMac. But if that continues to happen then isn't the lesson that Ron just isn't very good at stopping Tracy?

                    On the other hand, if Ron is a great defender (or impacts the game in a positive way overall) then TMac might have a few great games but will ultimately not have a lot of success.

                    What else does it mean to be a great defender than to have a majority of your outings resulting in players struggling to score against you. I mean in the end you have to show results that match what you are supposed to be. Otherwise you just aren't doing that job actually.

                    That's why the +/- is a pretty interesting stat over a range of games.


                    After all, you could use the same argument about ANY stat, including the final score. The Pacers weren't bad over their losing streak, they just kept running into teams playing really well that night. Those scores were "misleading".

                    We both know that is less likely than that the Pacers just weren't playing very well. EVERY stat, including scores and W-L records must be qualified and put in context. But that doesn't make them worthless (or of very little value).


                    It's true that +/- is always tied to the players around you, but so are all your stats. Just ask any PG that has watched a guy blow a layup and cost him an assist, or a PF that is constantly asked to defend the rim and must go out of defensive rebound position in order to do this.


                    Baseball is the biggest stat sport, yet those stats are almost all very situational. Your batting average comes from attempts against all sorts of different pitchers and even pitches. It's the process of compiling the results that gives you the stat.

                    And here's what makes the process look valid - players tend to track fairly well from one season to the next statistically. There is variation, but you didn't see Reggie typically go from 40% from 3 to 30% from 3 and then back to 40% in 3 straight seasons.

                    FT attempts, assists, all stats tend to stay similar for each player from year to year, despite being compiled from a wildly varying set of situations. This is one reason that the steriod situation started to grab attention in MLB, seeing huge jumps in power numbers. Those were abnormal jumps in most cases.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

                      I hardly ever look at the plus minus during the season, because it is pretty misleading in the short term. At the end of the year, however, it can be a very valuable tool in evaluating team play.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: can someone explain the whole plus and minus stat?

                        Originally posted by Zoso71 View Post
                        I hardly ever look at the plus minus during the season, because it is pretty misleading in the short term. At the end of the year, however, it can be a very valuable tool in evaluating team play.
                        I think even over a span of 20 games you get a good read. JO and DA have been at the top almost all year. Granger and Tinsley have struggled most of the year. Al and Jack were blah, but not bad. Dun and Troy have shot right toward the bottom of the list in a hurry, and to no surprise the team has gone in a losing slump at the same time.

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